2 rail sales numbers down

I didn't know about 2-Rail until I had been collecting 3-Rail equipment for about 5 years or so. I love my 3-Rail but it would've been nice to have choices. I am fortunate to be part of two 2-Rail clubs and one of them is preparing to set up for a couple of local shows.

Dave

@Beth Marshall-The Public Delivery Track posted:

FWIW...I just want all u 2 railers to know...  The big manufacturers that have been selling 2 rail, are telling me that their demand for 2 rail is down.

Maybe selling the same tired stuff to what is a small community (relatively) doesn't work like it does in HO? Also, the 2 rail community is not driven to buy, buy, buy anything and everything that does get produced.  I for one have not seen anything new produced in the last decade that I found compelled to buy.

I think a lot of ppl dont know that 2 rail exists.

Possibly true.  Maybe the "big manufacturers" could try advertising.

@mwb posted:

Maybe selling the same tired stuff to what is a small community (relatively) doesn't work like it does in HO?

Odd, a three-rail friend says the same thing about the three-rail offerings.

Ive seen plenty of cool stuff in 2 rail come out in the last decade. 

PRR GRa gondolas,  the H30 covered hoppers.  MILW ribbed side box cars, and of the Atlas USRA hopper cars, 8000 gallon tank cars, or AC-2 covered hoppers.    All the golden gate passenger cars...and our special run of the 64' woodside coaches.    Engines....MTH did big boys in 2 rail 6 months ago, but now they are all gone.   2 rail diesels...Ive been pushing for this..and hopefully some day it will happen.  2 rail road diesels..there are plenty available.

I'm getting MTH steel drop bottom gondolas done in 2 rail (as well as 3 rail) . They are really nice highly detailed cars.    The remarks I get from 2 railers when they see some of the nice MTH stuff is...."i had no idea this stuff was that nice".

Im also going to have a program introduced on the website maybe in a month....where if u buy an MTH freight car, 2 rail trucks for it will be available for $19.95 .  I know its not 5.00 bucks, but best I can do right now.  Part of the probem with the MTH cars is that the bolster screws go in from the top down, and u have to take the car apart to change the trucks, and I dont have time for that.  If it was an easy truck change, I could do them and charge less..

What would u want that has enough mass appeal to make the project economically viable?  Id say of course diesel switchers (like an alco S-2) and consolidations, but what else.  

FWIW... The last time Atlas offered the SW series switchers, they cancelled the run due to low order numbers.   You cant expect the manufacturers and dealers to take all the risk, and then have the hobbyists sit back and decide.  "well maybe I'll get it after I see it. "    The marketplace has spoken...and dealers are saying "im not stocking any 2 rail". Im only ordering what customers order.  And the numbers  are coming up short for production.

I wish I had the answer..other than more publicity for 2 rail

my .02 again

MTH and Lionel have been doing spectacular work.  Lionel has the definitive Alco PA, and some of their die cast steam models are as detailed as the brass imports of the last century.

Problems I see - a lot of it is plastic, and some 2-railers don't really care for plastic.  And you are competing with the used market, which, with eBay, now offers just about anything one could want.

I do like the MTH drop-bottom gons, and have two of them.  But again, plastic - not my thing. If they did the SP G-50-9, even in plastic, I would have to have five.

IMHO...the plastic with metal and plastic detail  is as nice as anything ive every seen.  The 2 best in my opinion being the 8000 gallon tank car, and the USRA 2 bay hopper car.   The AC-2 ACF covered hopper car is really nice too.  

What is an SP G-50-9 anyway?  The wood beet gonds with the high sides?  The gonds have been made in SP, but not with the high sides.  Some ppl have fabricated their own high sides for them

I guess I'm lucky, pretty much every thing I want I have.  There are a few things I would purchase but they are all contemporary and the amount of good contemporary stuff on the market is a niche within a niche.  Atlas, Lionel and even MTH have made some very nice contemporary things but nothing new in the past several years.  My WAG is that few people considering switching to 2-rail 1/48 from HO don't see much they'd be interested in.   The last time I asked a hobby dealer he said most of the HO and N stuff he sold ws 1980's and newer.  He didn't even carry any steam any longer.

I have at least a few of all the cars mentioned above - - except the PRR GRa gondola.   As a PRR modeler, I would buy at least a few.    If you are referring to the Weaver woodside gon - IT WAS NOT A PRR GRa however they painted it.    Among the errors, the major one was that it is 2 scale feet TOO SHORT - which is noticable.    Also Weaver did that car with cast on detail, which compared to the more detailed stuff I have been migrating to, it does not stand up well.     I do have 6 of the H30 covered hoppers and Weaver did a great job on them.   I have a pair of the Milw cars too, but how many rib sides can a non milwaukee layout have?     I also have all the Atlas cars mentioned.

As for the SW from Atlas - it is a very nice loco, I have two. 

I wonder as I read this and comment if the market is a bit saturated - especially with generic stuff.    Modelers are getting more knowledgeable and want models that represent specific prototypes in my opinion.

The G-50-9 is kind of arcane, and I seriously do not expect a reasonably priced model of it within my lifetime.  It was done by a high end brass importer about 20 years ago, and sold for over $300 each.  It is a drop-bottom car used primarily by the Harriman roads, and initially made by the Enterprise Car Co.  It differs from the MTH steel side mostly by having sides that slope inward well above the ratchets for the doors.  Ulrich made them in HO out of die cast - not 100% accurate, but still under four bucks, so I kept a pair:

Reference: Southern Pacific Freight Cars Vol 1, Anthony W Thompson, pp 94-108.

You know what? I have photos of the MTH cars - herewith:

Well, the top photo has a brass import (USH) on the left.  The lower photo shows an unmodified MTH on the left, and a car with proper frame extensions and ancient sand cast trucks on the right.  Both are handsome models, and if you like plastic cars these have to be among the best.  In fact, MTH has done definitive work in both freight cars and wood side passenger cars, all in plastic, which is probably the best medium for faithfully reproducing detail.  Me?  I am sticking with sand cast bronze.  Or built-up brass.

I think you're partially right. I was in this hobby about 4 years before I heard of 2 rail. It doesn't get much exposure but I think the decline is due to many factors and not just one thing. Some of them are: the myths about 2 rail keeps guys away, older guys aging out of the hobby and/or reaching a point where they have all they need, and 2 rail guys are more likely to stick to the roads they collect or model whereas 3 rail guys are more likely to buy stuff that strikes their fancy.

I do not have the budget for a fleet of brass rolling stock. I wish I did the stuff is gorgeous so plastic is good enough for me. Last year I bought 3 MTH plastic passenger cars from you (Beth) in 2 rail and this year I have a MTH scale wheel locomotive on order with another dealer. At this point I have almost everything I need. I would someday to purchase a Niagara or a Ten Wheeler in 2 rail. I know USH did a Niagara that is nice but I am in no rush.  I would be very tempted by RailKing SW if it had fixed pilots, Kadees and was 2 rail but most 2 railers wouldn't want it due to the China drive.

All opinion.

Ill try to be brief.  I like 2 rail, but im not picky, and when it comes to models, close is good enough for me.   If you like things exact, then u have to go to the short run companies and pay the price.  I realize that may be what many of u want.   Unfortunately, thats not the world of larger run, much less expensive production.   I worked with Weaver on the GRa gondola, and the 1st run was in the correct circle keystone scheme.   I also did a special run of them in Raritan River (they bought some from the PRR, and i was going to do NYO&W if weaver didnt close.

No, its not exact, and it may be 2' short, but personally, i find it a nice looking wood side gondola.  Weaver already had a 40' flat car, and I suggested to Joe about making wood sides that could attach thru the side pockets. The ends were slotted into the sides, and u could remove one or both ends if u wanted to for MW use or whatever.  The fact is, it was that car, or nothing, and i think its a nice car. Im not that picky, and i think it passes the "looks good" test.

There is so much out there that is so far off, im happy with anything thats close and  looks good.   I guess i'll find out if anyone buys the drop bottom gondolas im having done in 2 rail..  Atlas cars in 2 rail still seem to be selling OK.  2 rail comes and goes.  Few orders in 2 rail for a while, and then a whole bunch of orders....

****,

i just think, we are at the point in 0 scale ( in Europe/Germany also), were a manufacturer have to decide

1. develope Transition era stuff (in Germany Epoche 3), to make money with the customers they have the money and the age...( guess- Lenz develope each year 2 big steamer each 2000 bucks, other manufactureres goes into 0 with the same price range with this era) and the things will be sold out. They know, how to make money with their customers, but can`t generate new. This will work for a few years, then there are no customers, who are interested in this stuff. But with this stuff, no new customers ( age 45+) can be excited.

2. with a painting version of an Atlas beer ( or others) car nobody wants to order, when you own 300 or moore. Or sw 900?, they are around, easy to get. Manufacturers can use there patterns, developed several years ago and make reprints--but how long will this work-are were no at the point, were this business model won`t work?

Look into H0, plastic engines with etched/brass parts flooding the market, but most modern stuff ( perhaps a few F`s) . And-they are almost sold out. Even the roling stock. New manufacturers (like scaletrains or rapido) came around with this stuff. No market for modern stuff ? ehh In Germany the same--modern european stuff is sold out. The customers, youngsters an 45+, the grew up with this stuff. Look around, small companies with GP9 rebuilts or other older stuff doing daily work with modern cars..

In 0 scale, try to get a MTH high cube boxcar or other modern stuff. Kits from small manufacturers, who make modern stuff.sold out...

I think, the problems is to generate a market. Perhaps it`s to late now..and they are beating a dead horse. The risk, to use a lot of money to develope some engines are very high.  And even the owners are older guys, and perhaps this way will work to their retirements. And after that--so what, see, whats happen to  MTH-from his point of view-so what..

just my thougths

kindest regards from Germany

Elmar

Well there is this Covid thing....that has to be having some effect. Then there is the problem of getting enough people that want the same thing. There is also a tremendous secondary market.

Simon

MTH has done some very nice accurate models.    The PRR R50B is as good or better than any brass one I have seen.    I have about 7 of them all converted to 2 rail, and lowered to proper height.    The Fishbelly hopper is also a very nice car and appears accurate.    Since it is not Pennsy, I did study it in detail.   I do have about 10 of these.  

I have nothing against plastic.    I think you can get better detail   An example is the PRR H21 done by Atlas.    It has the rivet and structure detail on both the outside and inside of the body.   The brass ones I  have seen have very accurate, perhaps better detail on the outside, but the inside of the body when it is empty is devoid of detail, it is the reverse of the rivets and stuff from the outside.

On the other hand, Plastic generally requires larger runs of the same piece to cover the costs of tooling and design to be able to sell at a target price.    Brass lends itself to unique models and detailing because of the shorter runs.    However the shorter runs also mean significantly higher costs and prices.

Well in 2 weeks the 2 rail Stout Auctions is ending. I see a LOT of modern stuff in there. Perhapse a guage as to what items command more, the 1940's- 50's stuff like the Ferdinand Magellon or the 1980's stuff including Overland Amtrak superliners and F40ph's.

Regardless 2 rail or 3 rail, there is a darth of 1970's-1990's loco's [esp non EMD types] and vehicles - M.O.W. service vehicles, Tractor Trailers & 4 door cars.

@Beth Marshall-The Public Delivery Track posted:

FWIW...I just want all u 2 railers to know...  The big manufacturers that have been selling 2 rail, are telling me that their demand for 2 rail is down.  I am still pushing to keep up the availability of new 2 rail.    Just so you all know....

My personal feeling is that most of the new people coming into the hobby (most of whom are in their 50's or so) , are going with 3 rail, as its what they see available the most, and many ppl are introduced to the hobby thru clubs, most of which are 3 rail.   If you want to spread the word about 2 rail....my thoughts are that it might be a good idea for 2 rail modular club layouts to set up at some of the big traditionally 3 rail shows.  I think the shows pay for layouts to show up (idk for sure)   I think a lot of ppl dont know that 2 rail exists.  Just my .02

I agree with Beth.  There are no O Scale 2 Rail (OS2R) modular layouts at most general interest train shows such as the NMRA national train shows.  All the other scales and gauges are well represented by modular layouts including Lego, 3-rail O, and On30.

Yes, there are OS2R only shows that are well attended by people already in the segment but this is not an indication of where this hobby segment is going.  I am going to O Scale National that is being held in Denver in June.  I expect that the convention will be well attended but that the majority of the attendees will be in my age group - 60+.  I am in my mid 70s.  

OS2R is invisible to most people who are in the smaller scales and who are entering the hobby.  There is an ongoing effort to increase the visibility and popularity of OS2R.  This effort includes developing an OS2R Freemo modular layout standard and making the scale more visible on the web.  You can reach the O Scale Central Website here:  https://oscalecentral.com

The O Scale Central Website is the place to learn about everything that is happening in OS2R.

I believe, however, that until good quality OS2R modular layouts become regular attendees at general interest train shows, that the hobby segment will continue to remain mostly unknown to most people who are new to the model railroad hobby.  NH Joe

I agree with PRRMP54's friend!  As l've said before, when l was in HO, l could get any shortline or logging thing l wanted.  In three rail, same old same old.  I'd like a few drop bottom gondolas....in western roadnames.

Demand is down?  Lets look at this. You've got one company (atlas) who delivers things 7 years after they announce it, if they didnt outright cancel it. Sure they make some really nice stuff if they eventually deliver it, but why tie up the funds on things when theres no chance it'll be delivered in a timely manner. Orders are low? Maybe prove you can deliver and more orders will come. Forgive us for not bothering to order stuff and wait a lifetime to get it, but clearly the demand is there for what has been made, as I've watched time and time again 2 rail diesels go on that auction site in excess of $400 or $500, and some of them were $250 Trainman models!

The other guy (MTH), is on the way out the door, and sold a bunch of stuff to the first guy.  Will Atlas make use of the new factory capacity and deliver? Time will tell. While they made some nice stuff, the electronics are a turnoff for 2 rail. In 3 rail, DCS is no big deal, as the sound files are better than lionel's tired and worn out repeats, but compared to something like ESU's files... its basic at best. I bet they sell more "Scale wheel" diesels to 3 railers who want fixed pilots than 2 railers who run them on 2 rails. When they ran out of the sporatically stocked conversion wheelsets, i'm sure demand dropped off (even though they work just fine on 3R track with scale wheels).   I started off doing that, now that i have a 2R layout too, I just pulled the rollers off and flipped the switch.

I'm in agreement with the people above... it seems like modern stuff disappears, yet they havent rolled more stuff out. I would think in modern times with stuff like additive manufacturing, the setup costs to make something new would be less. There are plenty of things in Atlas' HO catalog that they obviously have CAD files for and could just add 181% to them...

Or just re-engineer and reuse existing tools! I've taken apart enough Atlas locos to know they're in a bunch of pieces... offer the GP9 as a chop nose (yeah, sure you can just build one), turn an F7 frame into a CF7, make the tweaks to the long end of a U23b to get a B23-7 out of it.... Anything new is going to cause a stir these days, assuming they can deliver it.