A little competition for TCA York Meet

My prediction:  Will have a negligible impact on the York Meet.  I doubt that they will even fill one building with that event, and you can be quite sure the O gauge manufacturers, in particular, know where their audience will still be.  Some manufacturers (and dealers) may have a presence at both events, but the ECLSTS has been on a downhill slide for several years (ever since Aristo-Craft turn over the reigns to a new operator, and somewhat concurrent with the declining U.S. growth of the Large Scale segment) and they are likely scrambling to find some way to build it back up.

The York Meet is the largest toy train meet in the world.  That is not likely to change even if the attendance was to taper off a bit.

Frankly, if the ECLSTS attracts more members of the general public (hasn't been able to do so all that effectively in the past), that would be a positive thing in any case, and it might even bolster interest in the TCA Eastern Division's train meet.

In short:  Certainly nothing to worry about.

Have any vendors jumped the TCA ship in favor of the Greenberg train shows that are already held in York (and have been for a number of years)?

Is this a case of a growing show, or is the move to an all-scale show due to a need to replace a shrinking segment of the hobby?

Andy

Actually, the TCA York meet is open to any member of the public who is willing to pay for 1 year's dues and a entry ticket. No signatures/no wait.

I doubt if any of the 24 train shows/year within a 2-hour drive from York have much, if any, impact on the TCA Meet.

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I'm just wondering if this will affect TCA membership and attendance? 

My prediction: it will have absolutely no affect on the TCA show.

Zero effect on TCA York Meet. 

It's successful divergence from it's original course will be more a measure of whether the ECLSTS shall maintain participation to the level that they can still justify/afford the venue at the York Fairgrounds.

Even though I'm not into Large Scale, I attended this once when it was local when we still had the Fort Washington Expo Center here near Philly.  It was interesting just to see what it's "theme" was, but not being into large scale, I only attended once and certainly would not drive all the way to York just to see what it had evolved into.

-Dave

The TCA Eastern Division event is a train MEET, not a train SHOW.  There really is a significant difference between the two, even though I've found over the years that many people have a hard time understanding the distinction.

Basically, though, a train SHOW is where folks go to see what this hobby is all about. Usually has a number of operating layouts in various scales so people can view not only individual products (which are also there), but can see how these products are used and can be used.

A train MEET is where folks go to buy/sell/trade stuff and, if the meet is large enough, to meet up with manufacturer representatives and other industry movers and shakers.

The TCA Eastern Division puts on their event for their members.  They generously open it to anyone else in the TCA who may care to attend, and, more recently, to anyone--including the guy walking in off the street--who has the $ to join the TCA (on site) and pay the admission fee.  ANYBODY who cares to can attend the York Meet these days.

The York MEET is the largest event of its type on the planet.

I went to the ECLSts about four years ago.  I went to York thinking there was a gun show that weekend, but I had the wrong date.  I debated going into the show and drove around the parking lot before I did.  The show was in the Memoral Hall Building and filled up both sides.  There was a lot of G Scale, and plenty of O Scale to look at.  The ECLSTS was the reason I switched from N to O.  The next time I went to the show there wasn't much in the way of O mostly G.  I live about an hours drive from the York Fair Grounds and I don't mind driving a couple hours to visit a train show.  It's better than cutting the grass.

To add to what Allan wrote, the York Meet is open to TCA members only for tax purposes.  PA tax laws as they are currently written would require the members selling in the member halls to collect PA sales taxes if the meet were open (technically, they probably still do, but the TCA worked out a deal with the PA Dept. of Revenue years ago to waive this requirement - and as Lando Calrissian can attest, you don't go trying to alter your deals with the Empire... ).  Smaller meets and shows can fly under the PA Dept. of Revenue's radar in this matter, but when 12k+ people are involved, they are definitely interested in the $$$ changing hands.

Andy

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 Smaller meets and shows can fly under the PA Dept. of Revenue's radar in this matter, but when 12k+ people are involved, they are definitely interested in the $$$ changing hands.

The PA tax department has been known to go after the "bandit meets".

I've said it many times before:  There is absolutely nothing wrong with a division of the TCA hosting a non-public meet for its members and for whomever else they care to have participate.  I repeat:  Absolutely nothing! 

There are MANY train shows in that part of Pennsylvania and Maryland over the course of a year, and more than ample opportunities--probably more than in any other region of the country--for the general public to see all the trains (toy, model, real, museums, etc.) they might care to see.

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I haven't been in this scale long enough, and just became a TCA member, to know about a "closed" show.  Really I'm kind of surprised, because every show that I've ever known about did everything they could to get as many people there as possible; especially newcomers to support the hobby for the future.

Frank53 wrote the following in a thread about hobby shops:

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Your Local Hobby Shop isn’t your personal babysitting service – either for you, or your children. Your local hobby shop should welcome your children and treat them with courtesy and enthusiasm. But when you are going to be in town for another purpose, dropping your children off at the hobby shop and leaving them there for three hours while you have a meeting, get a haircut or go to a ball game is abusing the privilege. If you’re from out of town and your wife is meeting her girlfriends in town for lunch, having her drop you off at the Hobby Shop for two hours is taking advantage.

 

Likewise, children are inquisitive and have an irrepressible need to touch everything they see. Letting your children run wild in the hobby shop to play “vroom, vroom” on the floor with expensive locomotives is costing your hobby shop money and no amount of “my little angel would never” makes it ok.

While the York show has plenty of dealers catering to the operator with new, and recently made merchandise, the meet also caters to collectors. Some very rare and expensive items show up there. This is one of the reasons people come from all over the country to attend the show. Some folks even come from overseas.

Our kids are certainly welcome at the meet. When the stars aligned, and the meet coincided with their school vacations, my kids attended. We assume that our children (and grandchildren) know how to conduct themselves at a meet or show. My experience as a table holder over the years tell me that is not always the case at a public show. To the general public, whether they be antiques or delicate scale models, our trains are all just toys.

When there are so many, so close together, I would really be surprised if they didn't.

They have also hit many of the larger flea markets pretty hard.  I have even heard of them going after individuals who they believe are having "too many" garage/yard sales.

This is pretty much why I think that the York Meet should be left in the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" category when it comes to suggestions of opening the meet to the public.

Andy

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They have also hit many of the larger flea markets pretty hard.  I have even heard of them going after individuals who they believe are having "too many" garage/yard sales.

My town has some sort of ordinance, and goes after folks who hold "too many" yard sales too.

With the increase in dues from $35 to $50, TCA is predicting they will lose perhaps 10% of their membership.  It will be interesting to see if York attendance is down 10%.  I'm inclined to doubt it, as York attendees are probably the most likely to renew their memberships despite the dues increase.

Despite the internet and closing of local hobby shops, train shows (as opposed to train meets focused on sales) seem to remain popular as there is no substitute for seeing and hearing the trains in person.  Especially for families with kids.  And with the increasing popularity of modular groups, there are more than enough displays at most of these shows. We have active regional modular groups in N (several), HO (several), S, O, Large Scale and Live Steam at the larger shows.

Whenever I read comments about people joining TCA only so they can attend York, two thoughts come to mind...

1. It's sad that people are unwilling to pay $50/yr for the association that promotes standards and fair trading practices, operates a fine museum, publishes a magazine, and promotes the hobby.  Relative to other hobby organizations, TCA is a good value.

2. If that's what it takes to get their financial support, so be it.

BIG DEAL $50. If you can't afford $50. you can't afford to operate or collect trains.

& that other show at the fairgrounds, it will have No effect on York.

East Coast Large Scale Train Show has been going on for some time and, I feel, complements the TCA Meet rather than competing with it. 

I agree. $50 isn't even the cost of one new boxcar anymore. As for the original post if the word "Scale" is in the name it's a turn off for me. I never go to "scale" shows period.

It's sad that "O" gauge trains have become so expensive. IMHO, it is a major barrier to any growth in the hobby. There is nothing the TCA can do about it.

I will stay away from the TCA $50 dues argument as I've given an opinion on that before. Quite frankly no one can predict what the impact will be. Its all conjecture at this point. At the end of 2014 reality will set in and actual numbers can be evaluated.

As for the E.D. York event, I do not see any viable competition coming anytime soon. If there were they would have to be able to fill seven buildings with O gauge model trains. York is quite the experience while the internet is the competition.

Train show: a venue where families with kids can entertain themselves on a Saturday or Sunday. They probably account for 25% of those attending. A few may become interested in the hobby (even after they see the cost), and about half will buy something under $10. for the kids. It's nice to see kids there, but strollers can block the asiles. There are many of these shows in the York area every year. I base this observation on attending about a dozen shows with our modular group from 10am to closing for the entire weekend.

Train meet: Crowded, but at least populated by "serious" train buyers. Very little "Thomas the Tank Engine" stuff to buy.