A new concept for Lionel to add separately applied details to Operating Freight cars.

Considering price is a big factor in this hobby.

Imo. Adding extra details as well as tmcc control to a "semi scale" freight car would price it out of its own market.

The average " semi scale" modeler might find them too expensive. The scale modeler would find them out of place with the rest of their equipment because of the size and might not justify the extra cost being inaccurate.

Another problem is that the parts you want to add as separately applied details are already molded into the body. For this to work, they would have to be completely retooled in most cases.

@Randy_B posted:

Another problem is that the parts you want to add as separately applied details are already molded into the body. For this to work, they would have to be completely retooled in most cases.

Yes....that is correct, they would have to create new shells.  OR use shells they have already created for premier freight cars.  I did not want them to use the same molds, unless they could be easily modified.

@RickO posted:

Considering price is a big factor in this hobby.

Imo. Adding extra details as well as tmcc control to a "semi scale" freight car would price it out of its own market.

The average " semi scale" modeler might find them too expensive. The scale modeler would find them out of place with the rest of their equipment because of the size and might not justify the extra cost being inaccurate.

I did not say to eliminate the old versions from buying opportunities.  If you want operating freight cars, then I doubt you worry about scale.  These would just be newly detailed versions of the old classics.  They could, possibly, offer both versions, old and new, at the same time when they introduce this new concept.  Pay a premium for the newer/detailed concept and offer the old version at a lesser price.  It does not hurt to try the concept at least once to see how it would go?  Perhaps the classic milk unloader car?  See how it goes and go from there.   It should not be that Lionel should not try to create something different.

Maybe it doesn't have to be TMCC controlled, (like I said, I'm a button guy), but that's the way most of the premiere freight is going...It was just to offer a new look, for an old and wonderful hobby.

Mason, your idea is an interesting one.  I think it’s a bit of a catch-22. The more existing tooling used in the design of your proposed cars defeats the goal of “all new,” yet the more new tooling used drives the price (way) up. The recently-released hobo boxcars are an existing freight sounds PS-1 boxcar with a modified sound file and a couple plastic figures. They have a street price of $136. My guess (and it’s only that) is the cost/effort of designing your proposed operating cars would exceed the cost/effort to create the hobo cars since so much of the hobo cars was already in the parts bin. If so, they could get very pricey and, as Rick noted, perhaps exceed what most folks would pay for them.

It would be interesting to see if a scale reefer or milk car could be modified into an operating car in a cost effective manner. It would have all the details you desire. And, those two particular scale cars fit right in on a traditional-sized train, so they could appeal to operators of both scales.

@RickO posted:

...Adding extra details as well as tmcc control to a "semi scale" freight car would price it out of its own market...The average " semi scale" modeler might find them too expensive.

LOL! I have often wondered how the term "semi scale" came to be in this hobby. Every model that has ever been built for anything was built to SOME scale. The toy-like products for 3-rail may not be accurate for O scale, but they are built to SOME scaled-down version of the real thing.

Saying that something is "semi scale" is like being "almost pregnant." It just makes no sense.

@Rider Sandman posted:

Mason, your idea is an interesting one.  I think it’s a bit of a catch-22. The more existing tooling used in the design of your proposed cars defeats the goal of “all new,” yet the more new tooling used drives the price (way) up. The recently-released hobo boxcars are an existing freight sounds PS-1 boxcar with a modified sound file and a couple plastic figures. They have a street price of $136. My guess (and it’s only that) is the cost/effort of designing your proposed operating cars would exceed the cost/effort to create the hobo cars since so much of the hobo cars was already in the parts bin. If so, they could get very pricey and, as Rick noted, perhaps exceed what most folks would pay for them.

It would be interesting to see if a scale reefer or milk car could be modified into an operating car in a cost effective manner. It would have all the details you desire. And, those two particular scale cars fit right in on a traditional-sized train, so they could appeal to operators of both scales.

But, the hobo boxcar has the details that I was suggesting.  It's better with details, than molded into the body!  And now a days, what is considered affordable and to whom?  Is the hobo car considered entry level at $158?  Is the Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd shoot-out car considered affordable at $85 a car?  Is that entry level pricing for one operating car for the young families?  Again, it's up to Lionel to determine the price points and what's affordable based upon design.  It was just a suggestion for something new and different.

@Rich Melvin posted:

LOL! I have often wondered how the term "semi scale" came to be in this hobby. Every model that has ever been built for anything was built to SOME scale.

I dunno, wasn't my idea. It's right up there with Madison Car and lashup.

As soon as we figure out what guage the "less than 1:48 track"  should be for the "less than 1:48 sized trains". Once new accurately sized "less than 1:48" trucks are designed to match the "less than 1:48" rolling stock . Then we'll have an appropriate guage description.

In the meantime. Your welcome to grab your tape measure and let everyone know, when the topic comes up. On a piece by piece basis of course. Since there are many variations across the" less than 1:48"  product line.

@trainmanmason posted:

But, the hobo boxcar has the details that I was suggesting.  It's better with details, than molded into the body!  And now a days, what is considered affordable and to whom?  Is the hobo car considered entry level at $136?

I believe the hobo car is a 1:48 scale car. FWIW msrp is $189.99.

@Rich Melvin posted:

LOL! I have often wondered how the term "semi scale" came to be in this hobby. Every model that has ever been built for anything was built to SOME scale. The toy-like products for 3-rail may not be accurate for O scale, but they are built to SOME scaled-down version of the real thing.

Saying that something is "semi scale" is like being "almost pregnant." It just makes no sense.

Fantastic points!  Have we all checked the true height and width of the O scale rails with your digital calipers?  The true size of the flanges on the scale wheels?  I didn't want to get caught up in scale/semi scale, toy, etc., discussion.  I was just trying to suggest adding separately applied details to the Operating Freight cars.  I went back and added this point to my original thoughts to my post.

As somebody once said....Don't sweat the small stuff  😊  . 

@RickO posted:

..grab your tape measure and let everyone know, when the topic comes up. On a piece by piece basis of course. Since there are many variations across the" less than 1:48"  product line.

I have to laugh again. I am definitely NOT a rivet counter. I don't care one way or the other about that level of detail on a model. As long as whatever the model is supposed to be presents some resemblance to the real thing, I'm happy.

My comment was simply directed at the term "semi scale." And you're right...that term is right up there with "Madison Car" and "lashup." 

@Rich Melvin posted:

LOL! I have often wondered how the term "semi scale" came to be in this hobby. Every model that has ever been built for anything was built to SOME scale. The toy-like products for 3-rail may not be accurate for O scale, but they are built to SOME scaled-down version of the real thing.

Saying that something is "semi scale" is like being "almost pregnant." It just makes no sense.

I think sometimes they are “scale” in one or two dimensions, but not the remaining one(s). It obviously depends as some are just scaled down with O-gauge trucks.

@Rich Melvin posted:

LOL! I have often wondered how the term "semi scale" came to be in this hobby. Every model that has ever been built for anything was built to SOME scale. The toy-like products for 3-rail may not be accurate for O scale, but they are built to SOME scaled-down version of the real thing.

Saying that something is "semi scale" is like being "almost pregnant." It just makes no sense.

Rich,

Following on @rplst8's comments and realizing that the 'scale' for traditional or semi-scale items is frequently different in each of the three orthogonal directions, would you rather see something like this format published for every traditional or semi-scale car or engine instead?:

  1:50 (l) , 1:48 (w), 1:45 (h)

          or maybe

   1/4" per foot (l), 1/4" per foot (w), 17/64" per foot (h)

Mike

@RickO posted:

I believe the hobo car is a 1:48 scale car. FWIW msrp is $189.99.

I found it for $158...but I was just repeating what Rider Sandman had posted.  So I corrected it.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Rich,

...would you rather see something like this format published for every traditional or semi-scale car or engine instead?:

  1:50 (l) , 1:48 (w), 1:45 (h)

          or maybe

   1/4" per foot (l), 1/4" per foot (w), 17/64" per foot (h)

No!

I don't care what scale, or combination of scales something is made to. My comment is solely directed to the TERM "semi scale."

@trainmanmason posted:

But, the hobo boxcar has the details that I was suggesting.  It's better with details, than molded into the body!  And now a days, what is considered affordable and to whom?  Is the hobo car considered entry level at $158?  Is the Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd shoot-out car considered affordable at $85 a car?  Is that entry level pricing for one operating car for the young families?  Again, it's up to Lionel to determine the price points and what's affordable based upon design.  It was just a suggestion for something new and different.

Hey there, Mason, I used the hobo car as an example because I thought it had some of the features you wanted, namely more details. My point was, it’s a highly detailed car with a little bit of new animation that heavily leverages existing tooling and it has an MSRP of $190 ($136 street price per the other thread). Now, extrapolate that to a highly detailed operating car with lots of new tooling.  I completely agree that “affordable” is a relative term, but I suspect the price point would be “significant.” Perhaps that’s why we’ve never seen them. Of course, my crystal ball is flakey, at best.  

Having said all of that, it is a cool idea, if doable.

Happy New Year.

@Rider Sandman posted:

Hey there, Mason, I used the hobo car as an example because I thought it had some of the features you wanted, namely more details. My point was, it’s a highly detailed car with a little bit of new animation that heavily leverages existing tooling and it has an MSRP of $190 ($136 street price per the other thread). Now, extrapolate that to a highly detailed operating car with lots of new tooling.  I completely agree that “affordable” is a relative term, but I suspect the price point would be “significant.” Perhaps that’s why we’ve never seen them. Of course, my crystal ball is flakey, at best.  

Having said all of that, it is a cool idea, if doable.

Happy New Year.

Yeah....I paid about $150 pre-order for the Missouri Pacific Vision Boxcar with rail sounds and no figurines.  Indeed....it is all relative.  I think it can be done for those of us that one that extra detailed look.  Just sell the newly detailed cars.  I don't need another milk unloader platform (sell the platform separately).  I don't need another culvert loader/unloader....Just sell the cars separately is another idea.