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Trying to add a Cruise Cmdr. M to a K-Line 0-4-0 switcher.  Researched all 500 comments about CMM, but still have two questions.  (1) Regarding the serial data, is it just a matter of tapping to pin #24 on the R2LC to get the serial source for the CMM board (that’s replacing the old style DCDR)?  (2) Which is pin # 24?  I “think” it’s where the red arrow points.  Thanks.

                                                                                         Red arrow?  Or blue?                                                                                                   

Red or Blue  Red


                                Engine Tether Socket                                                                                            Tender

Tether SocketTender

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  • Red or Blue
  • Red
  • Tether Socket
  • Tender
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The fact that you spent who knows how much of your time reading 500 comments (!!) on how to install these little electronic boards, and with manufacturer's instructions and a bunch more time still couldn't figure out how to complete the installation of this thing, is not exactly reassuring to those of us who might consider trying to install a CCM!   I wonder how many folks end up frying boards hooking up the wrong wires?

Last edited by breezinup

In all fairness it really isn’t that difficult.  Asking questions is a good idea and GRJ has probably answered so many of mine he’s about sick of me.

The only trouble I ran into was that I have an R2LC07 in my units.  But after wiring up GRJ’s improved serial buffer and a little extra debugging, I won’t even need to buy an R4LC08!

It seems the issue with the R2LC07 is the board electronics and NOT the code.  The serial data output driver in that board is just really, really, REALLY weak.

Wouldn't be the first time I've had flames.  For real.   Smoke means you screwed up a little.  Flames - try another hobby, perhaps.  I couldn't be in this one without this forum.  If it ever ended, I would have to collect stamps or something.

It was all the talk of serial data buffers and the likes of that that had me wondering, and not knowing the numbering of the pins.  So I assume that in this particular case all I need to do is follow the instructions for the rest of it, and tap the "blue" pin for the data input to the CMM.  No buffering or other strange (to me) electronic machinations. Correct?

@breezinup posted:

The fact that you spent who knows how much of your time reading 500 comments (!!) on how to install these little electronic boards, and with manufacturer's instructions and a bunch more time still couldn't figure out how to complete the installation of this thing, is not exactly reassuring to those of us who might consider trying to install a CCM!   I wonder how many folks end up frying boards hooking up the wrong wires?

Best laugh I've had all day. Thanks!

@Bucky posted:

Wouldn't be the first time I've had flames.  For real.   Smoke means you screwed up a little.  Flames - try another hobby, perhaps.  I couldn't be in this one without this forum.  If it ever ended, I would have to collect stamps or something.

It was all the talk of serial data buffers and the likes of that that had me wondering, and not knowing the numbering of the pins.  So I assume that in this particular case all I need to do is follow the instructions for the rest of it, and tap the "blue" pin for the data input to the CMM.  No buffering or other strange (to me) electronic machinations. Correct?

As long as you don’t have an R2LC07, correct.

@breezinup posted:

The fact that you spent who knows how much of your time reading 500 comments (!!) on how to install these little electronic boards, and with manufacturer's instructions and a bunch more time still couldn't figure out how to complete the installation of this thing, is not exactly reassuring to those of us who might consider trying to install a CCM!   I wonder how many folks end up frying boards hooking up the wrong wires?

There is only one wire to hook up. The rest are all in plugs that just... plug in.

Having retired from a 43 year career as a electronics technician ending as a network engineer, I know sometimes the simplest thing can be most confusing.  Bucky, you did the right thing and asked before making the connection!!  I'm glad you are taking comments in stride.

In the telecom business, we used to say 'how can keeping 4 wires straight for a business data circuit be so confusing'.  On the other hand, There is nothing like connecting the wrong wire and tripping a 500KV breaker in the substation!  Even sitting in the control house and the breaker way out in the switchyard, the sound was nearly deafening!  A second was when I dropped the end of a live high current wire on the steel grate floor in the power station.  That fraction of a second of blue light before the lights went out was interesting.

The red arrow is appropriately colored, it you connect there you may well get flames.  You will also do a lot of damage as that's track power!

Try the blue arrow, it's the serial data.

To add something, connector printed circuit solder pads for pin #1 are square instead of round for all the remaining pins. Best to ask, but look for the square pin pad as #1.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Having retired from a 43 year career as a electronics technician ending as a network engineer, I know sometimes the simplest thing can be most confusing.  Bucky, you did the right thing and asked before making the connection!!  I'm glad you are taking comments in stride.

In the telecom business, we used to say 'how can keeping 4 wires straight for a business data circuit be so confusing'.  On the other hand, There is nothing like connecting the wrong wire and tripping a 500KV breaker in the substation!  Even sitting in the control house and the breaker way out in the switchyard, the sound was nearly deafening!  A second was when I dropped the end of a live high current wire on the steel grate floor in the power station.  That fraction of a second of blue light before the lights went out was interesting.

@cjack posted:

To add something, connector printed circuit solder pads for pin #1 are square instead of round for all the remaining pins. Best to ask, but look for the square pin pad as #1.

Nothing in this post's responses bothered me.  But since we are on the subject, "Taking things in stride" is a necessity on the forum.  Over the years it seems to be experiencing a gradual increase in snarky posts.  Some people posting that kind of thing think that putting in an emoji makes it okay.  It doesn't.  I suspect the member at which it is directed does not feel better because of a happy face.

I located the square pin pad!  Thank you again guys.  

CC-M may be simple in the end, but at the start the directions did leave me confused.         

I sure didn't notice the square pin pad, until Jack mentioned it.  I'll have to remember it since I will probably be doing some of these in the future.  My observation skills leave something to be desired.  My 5th grade teacher would be sad to know that since the one thing I remember about him from 55 years ago is that he was always telling us to 'observe'!    My very good grades in school and college never seemed to help me reading directions.  I always miss something. 

@Bucky posted:

Nothing in this post's responses bothered me.  But since we are on the subject, "Taking things in stride" is a necessity on the forum.  Over the years it seems to be experiencing a gradual increase in snarky posts.  Some people posting that kind of thing think that putting in an emoji makes it okay.  It doesn't.  I suspect the member at which it is directed does not feel better because of a happy face.

I apologize if my reply hit the wrong way, it wasn't meant to.  I really was conveying the information requested, just figured I'd add a little humor with it.

@Bucky posted:

Nothing in this post's responses bothered me.  But since we are on the subject, "Taking things in stride" is a necessity on the forum.  Over the years it seems to be experiencing a gradual increase in snarky posts.  Some people posting that kind of thing think that putting in an emoji makes it okay.  It doesn't.  I suspect the member at which it is directed does not feel better because of a happy face.

I located the square pin pad!  Thank you again guys.

CC-M may be simple in the end, but at the start the directions did leave me confused.         

Don’t feel alone Bucky, in the beginning, ..I’ve had to blow up a couple fellas in boxes on more than one occasion on ERR installs......Once you get the hang of it, you’ll be helping the next new guy on here.....gotta crawl before you can walk buddy!....At least you had the good sense to stop before you let the magic smoke out.....😉

Pat

I apologize if my reply hit the wrong way, it wasn't meant to.  I really was conveying the information requested, just figured I'd add a little humor with it.

It was perfectly fine. And I did laugh about the "red" wire.  My last comments, as I stated, did not mean to imply anything in this chain was snarky.  I meant it as something I have noticed in general on the forum.  Ninety-nine point eight percent of the time this is the best place in the world for model railroaders of any kind to "congregate" and ask questions.  (It used to be 99.9 %.)   Where else can one get so many responses to a question, even seemingly dumb ones, in which I specialize.

John, I apologize if MY comment hit the wrong way.  I was not talking about you at all.  You remain one of the greatest resources this hobby has, and you always respond helpfully to all, as do so many others.  Besides, I did put a happy face emoji in there.  Ha!

@Bucky posted:

Nothing in this post's responses bothered me.  But since we are on the subject, "Taking things in stride" is a necessity on the forum.  Over the years it seems to be experiencing a gradual increase in snarky posts.  Some people posting that kind of thing think that putting in an emoji makes it okay.  It doesn't.  I suspect the member at which it is directed does not feel better because of a happy face.

I located the square pin pad!  Thank you again guys.

CC-M may be simple in the end, but at the start the directions did leave me confused.         

Bucky,

My initial response was not meant to demean your first attempt, but actually to calm the fears of others like breezinup about working on their locos.  You did the right thing for your wallet by asking - although anyone is free to learn the hard way as I have done many times myself, LOL.  You also did perfectly in identifying the two possible pins it could be, and the good pictures with arrows was a great way to convey the question.  Way better than a lot of other posts that are like, "I bought something and it's broke, pls halp."

I think you'll be very pleased with the results once you get it all buttoned up.  The CC-M is a great upgrade.

rplst8,

I really didn't think your responses were anything but helpful. Finding out the R2LC07 was not an issue for me makes the whole thing straightforward, as you said.  Solder a connection followed by plug and play.

For quite a while I had been thinking about the snarky comment deal; noticing it while reading posts from time to time.  It didn't have anything to do with this post.  Should have said something in a separate one if I  wanted to say anything.  I just didn't think it through enough to realize everyone might think it was directed at people here.  I sincerely apologize for that!  Not thinking things through enough is likely the reason I have to ask for help so often.   

With installation of the CC-M board and the help from you guys, the engine is great!  So on to today's issue. 
On another long dead K-Line switcher, in a replace all Lionel TMCC components with ERR stuff Sunday project,  I installed a Cruise Commander and Railsounds board.  For chuff and smoke, this engine has a cam on a drive axle, a Normally Closed "big" leaf switch it activates, and linkage that pushes a piston to blow smoke puffs, I assume.  No little reed switch involved.  (I NEVER, EVER have used smoke capabilities, because I have very scary instructions not to.")
According to the ERR instructions, to obtain locomotive chuffing sounds, the Railsounds board is connected to the two reed switch leads, unless synchronizing with a blower type smoke unit.  In that case you connect something to the 'Chuff In' on the CC board.  No reed switch connections to the sound board in that case. 
I don't even know what a synchronized puffing smoke setup would look like, but I assume this switcher does not have it. There were only three wires involved in the previous chuff sounds and smoke capability.  Two to the leaf switch and one for the heating element which is grounded.
So, my question is, why can't I use the existing leaf switch leads for connection to the ERR sound board?  I tried it, and in the 5 seconds of run time of the engine I heard two double chuffs per driver revolution instead of two chuffs per revolution.   Just wondering why.??     Thanks.
Chuff In

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  • Chuff In

You can use the micro switch. If you mounted the Cruise Commander in the engine you only have to wire the switch to the chuff in pin and one of the ground pins. No need to run wires to the RS board in the tender. You will still only get two chuffs because the engine has a two lobe cam. The smoke is synchronized because the axle cam also lifts the smoke unit piston.

If want 4 chuffs per rev you would have to use something like John's chuff generator in the engine. Otherwise its reed switches and magnets in the tender. You lose synchronized smoke since the cam still drives the piston. Only way to to get 4 chuffs and puffs is to replace the puffer unit with fan smoke unit and even more circuitry.

Pete

Last edited by Norton

Any switch connected to the ERR RailSounds Commander chuff input MUST BE TOTALLY DEDICATED to that task.  It's not possible to share that chuff switch with anything else.  The circuit on the RS Commander does not have a common DC ground with the rest of the world.

I you really want chuffing smoke and synchronized sound with a fan driven smoke unit for TMCC, consider the Super-Chuffer II. It's purpose built to do that job and it does it very well.  Here's some videos with folks that are installing the Super-Chuffer.



@Norton posted:

You can use the micro switch. If you mounted the Cruise Commander in the engine you only have to wire the switch to the chuff in pin and one of the ground pins. No need to run wires to the RS board in the tender. You will still only get two chuffs because the engine has a two lobe cam. The smoke is synchronized because the axle cam also lifts the smoke unit piston.  I used the leaf switch, but connected the two leads to the RS Commander.

If want 4 chuffs per rev you would have to use something like John's chuff generator in the engine. Otherwise its reed switches and magnets in the tender. You lose synchronized smoke since the cam still drives the piston. Only way to to get 4 chuffs and puffs is to replace the puffer unit with fan smoke unit and even more circuitry.

Pete

Any switch connected to the ERR RailSounds Commander chuff input MUST BE TOTALLY DEDICATED to that task.  It's not possible to share that chuff switch with anything else.  The circuit on the RS Commander does not have a common DC ground with the rest of the world.

I you really want chuffing smoke and synchronized sound with a fan driven smoke unit for TMCC, consider the Super-Chuffer II. It's purpose built to do that job and it does it very well.  Here's some videos with folks that are installing the Super-Chuffer. Thanks for the videos.  I would love to have that for this engine, or any for that matter.  But as I said, I can't, due to NO SMOKING orders from the boss.  And after 59 years, I still lo.... err, follow orders.

When I connected the existing leaf switch to the RS Commander, for some reason I got 2 double chuffs per revolution and was looking for a lead as to why or where to look for some error I made.  Chuff-Chuff.....Chuff-Chuff  per rev.   Also, is the correct situation for a sensor switch to be a normally closed like this one is?  It would seem to me that it would be a normally open switch that was momentarily closed each time the cam moved the arm of the leaf switch.









You are likely getting switch bounce if you're getting double chuffs.

That is interesting.  I could bend the arm a little to make it tighter to the cam I guess.  The thing is, I was marveling at the super slow speed capability of the engine and it was barely moving when returning the double chuffs.

So I guess the RS Commander expects the switch to be NC with its arm breaking the circuit when it is pushed down by the action of the cam. Weird to me.  I ask this question because when I opened things up one of the switch leads was loose from its solder point, or I inadvertently did it myself getting things apart.  There are three solder points on the switch, and it is NC between two of them and NO between two others.  I re-soldered a wire to it so it operated as NC because that is how it looked like it was before.

That means I soldered to the wrong place on the switch.    I'll try it with making the switch normally open. 

Always another question.  Do you happen to know if on the ERR 10 Pin Wire Harness Set more than one wire connected to the printed circuit board is grounded through the board's hold down screws.  I'm not surprised one is, but two are; orange and green.   

Sorry, one more.  How did you find out about the TMCC chuffs vs. Legacy?   Just kidding! 

@Bucky posted:

Always another question.  Do you happen to know if on the ERR 10 Pin Wire Harness Set more than one wire connected to the printed circuit board is grounded through the board's hold down screws.  I'm not surprised one is, but two are; orange and green. 

I don't have a clue why they did that, I've never used that setup.  I have one in stock, just to answer questions like this, but that one is a stumper.

@Bucky posted:
Sorry, one more.  How did you find out about the TMCC chuffs vs. Legacy?   Just kidding! 

I installed my Super-CHuffer in an early Legacy locomotive because it didn't have decent fan control.  I found out the sound and chuff were not in sync until I flipped the sense of the incoming chuff switch to my Super-Chuffer.

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