Adding scale detail to lionel scale ATSF Alco PA 1

Ron,

Always enjoy watching your projects develop.  Great to see somebody doing some 'modeling' for a change.  One of the great aspects of this hobby is building, modifying, and operating something you can't buy that everyone else owns.

 

Great job!

Ron what exactly did you change to mechanically lower the body? 

Hey Doug,

 

All I did was remove the top plates of the trucks within the body. Unfortunately it doesn't lower the body anymore than 3/16ths. But that's fine on these locos of mine. I could grind some from the truck top plates which I will do with the f3s, but this is close enough for the Alcos.

 

Ron

Ron,

Can you tell us your source for the cab steps?

I need a dozen.

Thanks.

Great job Ron, it really looks great

I agree, although you have to forgive me for not repeating the photos.  Lionel has done a very nice job, and you have made it better.

Jim, I got them from Lionel parts, both F3s and Alco. They are rear steps for the respective locos. Just go to the Lionel site.

 

Ron

Which Lionel PA part # is this? It looks well proportioned.

 

Jeff C

 

 

Jeff and Jim the Alco steps are 61045720 84 and 94 left and right rear steps respectively.

Thanks Ron, thats what I did with an E7 B unit but had to modify the shell as well, to get it low enough to match the E6's. That PA looks great!

I assume it makes it through your curves without issue with the body mounted steps.

Sorry, Ron, I didn't post clearly--I was talking about the engine itself. Some of the Lionel PA models have an odd nose profile, but yours looks very nice.

 

Jeff C

Jeff, it's the scale legacy model. Probably one of the most accurate shells in the industry.

 

Ron

Doug,

 

I believe it will. 0/120 curve the sharpest. Will try tomorrow. Will post video.

 

Ron

Guys,

 

These parts are going FAST.  I just finished ordering mine.  I needed 6 of each, but had to settle for 8 of #84's and 4 of the #94's.  I will modify to fit as needed.  Once Lionel exhaust their inventory I have no idea how long it takes them to re-stock.  I suspect that the above two parts were slow movers until yesterday, now they are almost GONE.

 

Thanks again Ron for supplying the part numbers. 

Originally Posted by leikec:

Sorry, Ron, I didn't post clearly--I was talking about the engine itself. Some of the Lionel PA models have an odd nose profile, but yours looks very nice.

 

Jeff C

Jeff, it's the scale legacy model. Probably one of the most accurate shells in the industry.

 

Ron's correct but it should be noted that Lionel used that same shell starting with Alco PA's listed in their Classic Trains Vol. 2 2003.  Before that, the Alco PA shells were based on the shells Lionel created along with MTH in the 90's 

The 1990s MTH shells were about as accurate as anything Key has done, with the exception of the anti-climber.

 

Opinion, based on a side-by-side comparison.

Interesting Bob.  I do know a couple of detail oriented scale (2R) modelers that prefer Lionel shells.  I haven't had a Key PA in my hands yet, but the Santa Fe specific details on the Lionel (after 2003) were better than the MTH PA(90's).  

 

I still have both a Lionel PA and an MTH PA.  Off the top, the number boards on the side have the correct width for 2 numbers.  The MTH number boards were more generic and were wide enough to accommodate the four numbers used on D&RGW PA's.

 

If I have time I will do a side by side and everybody can judge for themselves.  Regarding MTH, I haven't seen anything since their 90 PA, so I can't comment.  

No - I know nothing about Santa Fe specific.  My concerns as a scale modeler are size and contour - the nose and windshield are important to me, and I change the number boards to suit me before the plastic goes into the investment.

 

Quite a few of my train buddies do not care one whit about shape, dimension, etc., so long as the handrails go in the correct places and the headlight is the right shape.  That is up to them - not my plan.

Very interesting conversion. Nice job.

Very interesting conversion. Nice job.

This is what I enjoy about the forum, and there is a chance to learn.  bob2 has a vast amount of modeling experience.  

 

I quite sure how what I'm going to learn, but it will be interesting.

Doug, It goes through my curves and # six turnouts with no interference.

I tried to lower the powered B unit today mechanically and it essentially did nothing. So I made a marking tool to saw off 1/16th on the posts. It dropped to very scale ride height with a shadow over the center of the trucks just like the Santa Fe prototypes.

 

Tomorrow I'll reinstall the pieces I took off the A unit and saw off the posts.

 

If you look at this photo one can see the B unit on the left rides at a better height than the modified A unit

 

Well Ron....now you have me making these changes to mine too!!...thanks..

 

Alan

Alan, the lowering on a powered model is tricky. My first try with the powered B unit had the dual motors stalling against the roof and I had to shim the body up to clear. The body is now the same height as the first A unit I've been working on. It's lower, but not as much as I would've preferred.

 

Good luck with your efforts.

 

Ron

I dont understand how Lionel can get some units at a really good ride height, and really blow it on others. Like the scale F3's, not to bad....F7s...whoa whoa whoa what happened there.

One thing wrong with most MTH locomotives, and the PA in particular, is that the wheelbases were incorrect.  The Lionel trucks look perfect - is the wheelbase correct?

While remounting the steps on the lowered B I studied the prototype steps and then filed the steps down to a thinner more protypical look.

 

Compare filed steps on left unit to right. 

Wow!  They really improved the steps over the previous versions.

 

Thanks!  keep us in mind if you want to cast the pilots...

 

Thanks,

- Mario

And I thought I was bad Ron....I have never filed down steps... lol but they sure do look better. :-)

And I thought I was bad Ron....I have never filed down steps... lol but they sure do look better. :-)

Yep!

Something new. After adding spring and brake detail I decided to paint solid silver leaf springs so they look correct instead of a solid piece. Additionally the middle steps looked stupid having no depth. So... I painted them so as to add highlight. I did not want to build tanks from scratch or grind out the steps. When these are weathered I think it will turnout satisfactory.

 

Ron

Once you have all your units done, and perfected all your techniques, you'll be able to whip them out quickly. I wouldn't want you to forget the process you used so......

 

I'll send ya my ABA set

Adding brake cylinders air lines on trucks today. Tedious.

Piping installed above the trucks.

Thought those might be of help

Eric,

 

Thanks Eric,

 

I'de like to change the cab grab irons, but after the lowering, the trucks, the pilots and the close coupling. I'll weather and that is it.

 

Except, I'm really thinking of fabricating the super cool antennas the A units had in the late 50s.

 

Regards, Ron

what brand of silver paint will you use on the pilot to match the lionel silver?

They would help, but they look a lot like not Lionel.  I think you ought to identify them so as to not confuse folks.  Maybe I missed the ID?

I'm going to try aluminum or silver scalecoat. Not too concerned about the match as the pilots got pretty weathered.

 

The pictures Eric sent were of his Key Alco.

 

Paint finally arrived today so I will paint and finish the pilots as time permits.

 

Ron

Ron I think your project is just wonderful!

Keep up the outstanding work.

Eric, thank you very much. I just wish I could be a little faster, but when it get's tedious I put it down and play with something else and then come back to it.

The job the author of this thread is doing on that PA1 is really quite nice. I think when one decides to modify a locomotive or car to add realism, it takes great patience and skill. Many do not posses the skills or patience to venture off into this aspect of the hobby.

 

My compliments to this gentleman.

Very nice additions.

Yes!  Really nicely done and showing just what can be done with a bit of applied effort.

Thanks for sharing!

As I was completing the truck detail on the B unit I noticed an unprotypical casting extension on the trucks at the outer brakes. Now grinding these off.

 

In this picture the upper truck frame has the extraneous pieces outside of the far end brake ends. On the bottom truck frame it has been ground off.

Wow, Ron.

Didn't even notice those extra pieces until you pointed them out. Now when I go back and look they stick out!

Good eye and great job!

Me neither.  But what strikes me most is the absolute beauty of these sideframes - they compare well with high end brass.  Lionel and MTH are making better models than we 2-railers could buy at any price three decades ago.

The easiest way to tell the latest Lionel PAs is the fuel tank is a scale foot too long and the radiator fan is a scale foot too small.

Bob2 had asked earlier about the Lionel PA wheelbase.  Anybody know?

 

Quote:  "One thing wrong with most MTH locomotives, and the PA in particular, is that the wheelbases were incorrect.  The Lionel trucks look perfect - is the wheelbase correct?"

 

Thanks. Bill

Looks to me like it should really be there. Looks to be part of the truck frame. Oh well, too late now. 

Zoom in

 

Big Jim these are not to be found on the prototype photos of the Santa Fe locos. If they are there they are deep in the shadows.

 

Ron

 

Yes, it is in the photos if you look at right photo. Finding a pure side photo is hard to find, but, there are a couple. Yes, it is in the shadows, but, if can zoom in on the front of the front truck and the rear of the rear truck you can see it.

 

What you took off is a part of the frame that is in what I believe is an oxbow type shape. In other words, from the side of the frame it curves ninety degrees inward, then ninety degrees down, then curving ninety degrees inward again. The plan that I provided is I believe from a "Locomotive Cyclopedia", so it is there.

 

 Maybe these two will convince you.

 

 

 Look very closely at this photo posted earlier, just behind the stirrup, and you can see how the frame "esses" and goes across toward the other side.

 

Let me add this,

The cast on part that you took off is clearly not a good representation of the way the frame is actually shaped. Since you have done so much detailing already, I am sure that you can make a new part that more closely represents the "S" shape of the frame . 

Jim. You are correct.

 

I know exactly what you're speaking of. I have the drawings. These are the front and rear frame pieces of this truck. Your right, the Lionel casting just jumps out while this piece is deeper in the truck. I've considered modelling this , but later. I'm more concerned about the visible frame pieces at the ends of the units and the end plates of the units where the air hoses are mounted.

 

I'm at the point where the B unit is almost done and I can start on the powered A unit and its' pilot. There is going to be a stopping point soon.

 

I've got two more projects I really really want to get to next. Installing ERR cruise and sound for my Pecos River ATSF Hudson and ERR cruise and sound for a 3 rail conversion of my Westside ATSF 2 rail Mikado.

 

Thanks Big Jim for the tips.

 

Ron

Not intending to detract from the excellent work displayed in this thread, but one factory-applied detail that could use some work is the windshield wiper.  It's in the wrong place and the blade is canted in relation to the arm.

 

The original Alco-GE PA1 windshield wiper had the arm and the blade parallel and they were located further inboard, at the bottom edge of the windshield.  The original wiper motor was a Trico-Folberth rack and pinion air pressure motor with a 140-degree sweep.

 

(Later, several owners -- including Santa Fe -- got tired of getting under the dashboard to repair or replace windshield wiper motors, and mounted them above the windshield.  Alco-GE got the message, and, beginning with the PA2, used the same Sprague Air-Push 100-degree wiper motor used by EMD, mounted above the windshield).

 

Too much information, probably, but the Lionel PA1 windshield wiper has always been a burr under my saddle.