American Flyer - Prewar Tunnel Variation Guide

Bob Bubeck posted:

Here's a potential oddity for your consideration.

The pictured tunnel is molded papier-mache, is 15" long, is not labeled on the inside, and has no decorative buildings or roads, etc. on its sides. It features a relatively simple two bump design scheme a la Gilbert. Another knowledgeable Flyer collector friend and I believe this to be a No. 248 from the circa 1938 Gilbert period fabricated like an AFMCo. tunnel. There were numerous manufacturing techniques and tooling carried over from Chicago to New Haven during the transition. The coloration is consistent with AF for this period, but the rectangular openings do not fit the theory.  It is not Marx, Lionel, or Jefferson, so by the process of elimination we are back to considering prewar Flyer. Another possibility is this is a separate sale piece by a subcontractor for American Flyer. "Side 1" and "Side 2" are shown below. Suggestions and comments are welcome.

 

Have fun!

Bob

There were other tunnel makers out there, that just made accessories.  I would guess it is not made or sold by a manufacturer.  My guess on the 1938 tunnels is that they were leftover items from the Chicago era flyer operations, as Gilbert had other Chicago era accessories and trains in the 1938 catalog and the artwork in the 1938 catalog looks more similar to the Chicago era tunnels.  

Nation Wide Lines posted:

Bob Bubeck posted:

Here's a potential oddity for your consideration.

The pictured tunnel is molded papier-mache, is 15" long, is not labeled on the inside, and has no decorative buildings or roads, etc. on its sides. It features a relatively simple two bump design scheme a la Gilbert. Another knowledgeable Flyer collector friend and I believe this to be a No. 248 from the circa 1938 Gilbert period fabricated like an AFMCo. tunnel. There were numerous manufacturing techniques and tooling carried over from Chicago to New Haven during the transition. The coloration is consistent with AF for this period, but the rectangular openings do not fit the theory.  It is not Marx, Lionel, or Jefferson, so by the process of elimination we are back to considering prewar Flyer. Another possibility is this is a separate sale piece by a subcontractor for American Flyer. "Side 1" and "Side 2" are shown below. Suggestions and comments are welcome.

 

Have fun!

Bob

There were other tunnel makers out there, that just made accessories.  I would guess it is not made or sold by a manufacturer.  My guess on the 1938 tunnels is that they were leftover items from the Chicago era flyer operations, as Gilbert had other Chicago era accessories and trains in the 1938 catalog and the artwork in the 1938 catalog looks more similar to the Chicago era tunnels.  

 

 

Thanks NWL for your thoughts and suggestions. Please permit me a digression.

During this time of 'social distancing' I had the time to leaf through every issue of The Collector (yes, all of them ). Over the course of the years they manged to address to some degree in various articles spanning the relevant prewar and postwar periods the toy and novelty manufacturers Leroy, Maurer (Jefferson Sales), Skyline, and Bachmann (i.e., Plasticville) ... which I know was referred to as a group (from other sources at the time) collectively as the "Philadelphia Building Trust". Maurer/Jefferson was the only one of these manufacturers that made toy train tunnels and their's look nothing like anything AFMCo. or Gilbert Flyer ever sold. The Collector never covered Schoenhut and Jayline (additional members of the "Trust"), which made toy train buildings and such in the 30's, but no tunnels. Nor did they ever cover Train Town, which made pressed cardboard prewar bridges (but no tunnels) or H and H Sales in Pittsburgh, which offered litho houses in the postwar period, but (again) no tunnels. So, other than Colber and Minicraft (both postwar) we have rounded up most all of the usual suspects.

However, ... the Carbondale Toy and Novelty Co. was sighted in The Collector as a subcontractor of tunnels for Gilbert from 1946 to 49. If true, this would indicate the source of my posted known No. 247 (c. 1946), whose appearance and mode of manufacture differs from other prewar and postwar Flyer pieces. 

We know that my proposed "No. 248" is definitely not Marx or Lionel. Given the method of fabrication and the typical Gilbert two bump (or hump) design, when one has eliminated practically all of the possibilities, one is left with the evidence pointing towards my posted "No. 248" being sold as a prewar Gilbert Flyer variation no matter how improbable that may seem (to paraphrase Conan Doyle). This is all complicated by (1) the entropy associated with the transition from Chicago to New Haven, (2) the fact that Gilbert prewar or postwar never labeled any tunnel itself, and, as any seasoned collector knows, (3) the fact that catalog illustrations are very useful guides, but in some circumstances, may also be misleading.

So, I ask collectors interested in this niche area to keep an eye out and offer any additional info they may have.

I apologize for any apparent 'topic hijacking'. 

Respectfully,

Bob

Bob Bubeck posted:

 when one has eliminated practically all of the possibilities, one is left with the evidence pointing towards my posted "No. 248" being sold as a prewar Gilbert Flyer variation

You make the assumption that you have eliminated "practically all possibilities"  which I find a stretch, when considering trains.  You just have eliminated the companies listed in The Collector, which considering that information is very dated and may not consider all possibilities, is a stretch.  

For one thing, American Flyer of Chicago did not make their own tunnels.  I believe that The Collector discusses the changes of various tunnel manufacturers that Flyer used in the 20s.  I think that discussion is in the conversations Doc Robbie had with Maury Romer, but do not recall.  Therefore, there were differing manufacturers of tunnels during the prewar era.  

That also assumes that the tunnel you are suggesting is the 248 tunnel is a prewar tunnel.  

I honestly cannot say.  It could be a Gilbert era prewar tunnel, but there is a real lack of evidence other than a supposed "two-bump" feature of this tunnel that denotes it being Gilbert. 

Nation Wide Lines posted:

Bob Bubeck posted:

 when one has eliminated practically all of the possibilities, one is left with the evidence pointing towards my posted "No. 248" being sold as a prewar Gilbert Flyer variation

You make the assumption that you have eliminated "practically all possibilities"  which I find a stretch, when considering trains.  You just have eliminated the companies listed in The Collector, which considering that information is very dated and may not consider all possibilities, is a stretch.  

For one thing, American Flyer of Chicago did not make their own tunnels.  I believe that The Collector discusses the changes of various tunnel manufacturers that Flyer used in the 20s.  I think that discussion is in the conversations Doc Robbie had with Maury Romer, but do not recall.  Therefore, there were differing manufacturers of tunnels during the prewar era.  

That also assumes that the tunnel you are suggesting is the 248 tunnel is a prewar tunnel.  

I honestly cannot say.  It could be a Gilbert era prewar tunnel, but there is a real lack of evidence other than a supposed "two-bump" feature of this tunnel that denotes it being Gilbert. 

1. I included in my comments many companies that were not discussed in the The Collector, but which I do have some knowledge, including a fair number of postwar toy and novelty manufacturers. Some that are discussed in The Collector are treated with a fair degree of error (e.g., Leroy) while others (e.g., Maurer/Jefferson) are very well covered. Revisiting the issues of The Collector, one is reminded that it was a lot of fun, but the critical editing was uneven.

2. We are agreed tunnel manufacture for AFMCo. was outsourced, the details about which are a bit sketchy in The Collector. The collecting scholarship for prewar Gilbert is certainly less than ideal, too. My "No. 248" (please note the quotes, because I have not proved it) was likely outsourced, too, but as one goes through eliminating the possibilities, the case for it being a late 30's Flyer item at the point of final sale becomes stronger. Given the nature of its manufacture utilizing papier-mache, it is consistent with prewar methods identical to your well-identified AFMCo. tunnels, but with a coloration that is consistent with late 30's practice with the period's decreased emphasis of brighter hews for toy trains and toy train items. It is unlike any of the postwar tunnels of which I am aware. For what it is worth, it is the correct size. 

3. Appreciate your honesty. One is trying to deal with the difficulties inherent in proving a negative versus proving a positive. Hard evidence one way or the other will be greatly appreciated. If one is going to have an AF Prewar Tunnel Variation Guide, it would be desirable to sort out the prewar Gilbert, as well.

Respectfully,

Bob

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

I have been trying to write an article on American Flyer prewar tunnels for many years, as the description of American Flyer tunnels is a topic that is lacking information.

Identifying American Flyer prewar tunnels can be very difficult and I have found that the best way to identify them is by finding tunnels that are either boxed, come in boxed sets, or are somehow labeled.  When that fails, the best way is by searching through original American Flyer catalogs and dealer price lists for descriptions of the tunnels, as the catalogs typically described the tunnels by length and possibly width/height.

I have purchased tunnels simply because they had characteristics of American Flyer tunnels and were in good condition, only to later discover that they were in fact American Flyer tunnels.

Additionally, I have discovered that not all American Flyer tunnels have the characteristic of having a house on their side.  Most of them do, but not all, as you will see in the following posts.

So to start of this post, here is the earliest tunnel that I know of being sold with an American Flyer set.  As you can see, it is lithographed tin.  This tunnel came with set #25, as shown in the 1908 American Flyer catalog.  The tunnel is marked KB, so I suspect it was made by Karl Bub for American Flyer, as the early Flyer accessories were all German made.

NWL

Thank you NWL for all of this information!! You are an amazing resource. This has to be my favorite one. Of course, I would pick the earliest and probably rarest of them all