Let's see where the OGR community is leaning on control systems. Please take this survey
Keith, Might be interesting to include dead rail too. Doug
@pc cr ns yard rat posted:Keith, Might be interesting to include dead rail too. Doug
Maybe next time. I don't see any way to modify the survey after posting.
There are NCE and Digitrax camps as well. Luckily most boards will work with both.
Wish we could make TMCC / Legacy / DCS play nice and work with everyone's systems as well.
My club's modular layout is wired for both TMCC / Legacy & DCS. For the most part we don't have much trouble running both together these days. In the past DCS did not like our layout though.
@Steve Harris posted:Interesting that the manual says avoid common bus wiring. Also says to clean off the blackening on top of the center rail. I wonder how many people have done that.
Steve, you're right. I followed the manual on my first attempt to install DCS. As I mentioned, I had six loops, but decided to try the set up on the first loop I installed and make sure it worked before I proceeded with the others. My layout was around the room perimeter. On a 140' loop I had 16 sets of feeder wires (every 10th track joint) around the loop from the track with a center rail plastic insulating track joiner in between. Trying the 'star' or 'home run' wiring was daunting, getting wire from the other side of the room, around the perimeter to a terminal strip was a mess of wires. And I'd have five more to do like that. No way!! When I tried operating I had bad signal problems. I eventually put light bulbs at every wire feed at it made it worse!
I ripped it all out and tried running bus wires around the layout. My first mistake was connecting the ends of the bus wire together. The signal problem was no better. So I just went simple. I unconnected the ends of the bus wire, attached one end of the bus directly to the TIU output, connected the feeder wires to the bus and added one bulb to the other end of the bus. BOOM!! Perfect 10 signal all around the loop! That's all I did other than make sure the track was clean, PS 2 batteries fully charged and fresh remote batteries.
I did clean off the blackened center rail on my Atlas O track, but I didn't notice any difference. The rest of the loops I left the center rail alone and still had good results. I've also been told it's not necessary to insulate the center rail around a loop. I'm going to test this out on the current layout I'm building.
@rrman posted:Sounds as if Atlas bought just full scale MTH diesels and cars, no semi-scale tooling (sorry I have not had time read these previous five pages of comments
). Too bad, as its getting harder to find "small" cars to run on small layout sharper curves without looking out of place (trucks jutting out, car body hanging way over the curves). The few full size cars I have are parked on sidings in far corner of layout to diminish the out of proportion look. I can run those "huge" cars for myself but never when there is open house.
But that just me and my layout
.
Word on the street (and this forum) is that there will be an announcement on the future of the RailKing line next month. Stay tuned!!
@Texas Eagle 77 posted:There are NCE and Digitrax camps as well. Luckily most boards will work with both.
Wish we could make TMCC / Legacy / DCS play nice and work with everyone's systems as well.
My club's modular layout is wired for both TMCC / Legacy & DCS. For the most part we don't have much trouble running both together these days. In the past DCS did not like our layout though.
Am running both Atlas and MTH 2-rail locomotives using the MRC Prodigy system.
Works great and no special wiring techniques. Actually I have experimented with great success using silver epoxy in the nickel-silver rail joiners. The nickel-silver rail bonds tightly with the joiners. The gap between rails fills with the epoxy so no click-clack. Welded rail effect. No need for multiple feeders.
Chuck
@Traindiesel posted:Steve, you're right. I followed the manual on my first attempt to install DCS. As I mentioned, I had six loops, but decided to try the set up on the first loop I installed and make sure it worked before I proceeded with the others. My layout was around the room perimeter. On a 140' loop I had 16 sets of feeder wires (every 10th track joint) around the loop from the track with a center rail plastic insulating track joiner in between. Trying the 'star' or 'home run' wiring was daunting, getting wire from the other side of the room, around the perimeter to a terminal strip was a mess of wires. And I'd have five more to do like that. No way!! When I tried operating I had bad signal problems. I eventually put light bulbs at every wire feed at it made it worse!
I ripped it all out and tried running bus wires around the layout. My first mistake was connecting the ends of the bus wire together. The signal problem was no better. So I just went simple. I unconnected the ends of the bus wire, attached one end of the bus directly to the TIU output, connected the feeder wires to the bus and added one bulb to the other end of the bus. BOOM!! Perfect 10 signal all around the loop! That's all I did other than make sure the track was clean, PS 2 batteries fully charged and fresh remote batteries.
. . .
What I found in testing was that DCS works well with a buss (as does DCC) IF you have only one feed per block, you don't join the buss ends into a loop and you use some type of terminator at the end of the buss to prevent the signal from bouncing back -- either a DCC Snubber/Deats Filter or a light bulb.
One thing I'm going to test when I build my new layout is what I call "anti-attenuation" wiring where the hot is at one end of the block and the common is at the other to compensate for the track resistance. It makes a difference in a DC operation and I'm curious if it will improve a digital signal.
@Landsteiner posted:"One item not considered with this licensing is if it there is an exclusivity clause in the agreement that prohibits the use of TMCC. "
This would potentially be illegal under anti-trust law , as an anti-competitive practice, should anyone want to litigate it. MTH could probably incorporate a legally defensible clause requiring Atlas use of PS3 in formerly MTH locos, but could not legally specify that a competitor's product could not be used at all. Atlas would be very foolish indeed to agree to restricting their use of other products down the road, of course, but we don't know and probably may never know the details of the contract.
I'm not a lawyer, of course
.
@Madockawando posted:That makes sense. I would think that Atlas would want the flexibility to use what ever command control system it wants. While it certainly makes sense for Atlas to use the tooling, I am a bit skeptical of the value of using MTH packaging and MTH control system for these locomotives. Given the historical slowness of Atlas getting locomotives to market, are Atlas customers really going to care a couple of years from now that these Atlas locomotives come in "MTH" boxes? Also, given the success of Lionel's Legacy and TMCC systems, is anyone a couple of years from now really going to want locomotives with command system technology from a defunct company?
My point is that time works against any value of tying these upcoming Atlas locomotives too closely to their old MTH roots. It seems more logical to equip these locomotives with what ever version of TMCC is current and slap them in Atlas boxes. The people that are going to purchase these locomotives are operators, not collectors. All they will care about is how it looks and how it runs. The color box will make no difference to them. Don't think 2021, think ahead to 2023 or 2024.
Atlas acquired a license to use DCS if they choose to use it. What they will do is anyone's guess, but I doubt they are paying for a license and not use the licensed product. They won't control the production or development of DCS. The yet unannounced DCS entity will be doing that. That company will be able to license DCS to any other model train company (such as the possible entity that will manufacturer the still available former MTH diesel, electrics and steam locomotives and rolling stock, maybe a MTH 2.0?)
The video on the Atlas website specifically says the items acquired will be marketed in Atlas O packaging, not MTH packaging.
It will be interesting to see what happens with TMCC. It's an aging technology (as is DCS and Legacy) that Lionel abandoned for the Legacy system. The initial modernization for those systems has been to eliminate the hand held remotes and transfer the functions to already available smart phones. Lionel has even mentioned eliminating the Cab 2 down the line as components become obsolete. This will not likely be reversible. Back in the mid 2000's when Atlas O was routinely delivering locomotives, they were having difficulty with sales, from a conversation I had with a well known supplier of Atlas O product. It wasn't because their engines were not good. They were and still are marvelously detailed engines. But buyers were more attracted to the DCS and Legacy Command Control systems. Buyers liked the better sounds and functionality of those newer systems than the Railsounds 4.0 in TMCC. That, combined with Kader pulling all manufacturing of trains from all the train companies, including Lionel, and sidling up with Bachman, severely curtailed Atlas O production (and to a lesser extent, their HO & N scales too). Once K-Line went out of business, only Atlas and 3rd Rail were left to license TMCC to.
Other than some of the tooling, the real prize was the use of the MTH factory. Time will tell if Atlas production and delivery gets better now that they'll have a dedicated manufacturer.
@Traindiesel posted:Steve, you're right. I followed the manual on my first attempt to install DCS. As I mentioned, I had six loops, but decided to try the set up on the first loop I installed and make sure it worked before I proceeded with the others. My layout was around the room perimeter. On a 140' loop I had 16 sets of feeder wires (every 10th track joint) around the loop from the track with a center rail plastic insulating track joiner in between. Trying the 'star' or 'home run' wiring was daunting, getting wire from the other side of the room, around the perimeter to a terminal strip was a mess of wires. And I'd have five more to do like that. No way!! When I tried operating I had bad signal problems. I eventually put light bulbs at every wire feed at it made it worse!
I ripped it all out and tried running bus wires around the layout. My first mistake was connecting the ends of the bus wire together. The signal problem was no better. So I just went simple. I unconnected the ends of the bus wire, attached one end of the bus directly to the TIU output, connected the feeder wires to the bus and added one bulb to the other end of the bus. BOOM!! Perfect 10 signal all around the loop! That's all I did other than make sure the track was clean, PS 2 batteries fully charged and fresh remote batteries.
I did clean off the blackened center rail on my Atlas O track, but I didn't notice any difference. The rest of the loops I left the center rail alone and still had good results. I've also been told it's not necessary to insulate the center rail around a loop. I'm going to test this out on the current layout I'm building.
Interesting. I had buss wiring, with a continuous loop(maybe that caused some of my problems) Things ran reasonably well and then suddenly one day, I began loosing control and nothing changed on the layout. We then did some back tracking and moved away from the buss wiring. My layout is 15x48, Inner, outer, yard and ladder tracks. Tried home runs from mid way of the 48’ side on around and had signal problems further away from the TIU. Eventually I bought another TIU, each midway on the 48’ side. Halved each loop and ran back to each TIU. I don’t have 10’s everywhere but I have full control. The problem is I have 2 open channels per TIU now but I guess it gives me room to grow. I should also mention the tracks joints are all soldered and track is clean.
@Traindiesel posted:Atlas acquired a license to use DCS if they choose to use it. What they will do is anyone's guess, but I doubt they are paying for a license and not use the licensed product. They won't control the production or development of DCS. The yet unannounced DCS entity will be doing that. That company will be able to license DCS to any other model train company (such as the possible entity that will manufacturer the still available former MTH diesel, electrics and steam locomotives and rolling stock, maybe a MTH 2.0?)
The video on the Atlas website specifically says the items acquired will be marketed in Atlas O packaging, not MTH packaging.
It will be interesting to see what happens with TMCC. It's an aging technology (as is DCS and Legacy) that Lionel abandoned for the Legacy system. The initial modernization for those systems has been to eliminate the hand held remotes and transfer the functions to already available smart phones. Lionel has even mentioned eliminating the Cab 2 down the line as components become obsolete. This will not likely be reversible. Back in the mid 2000's when Atlas O was routinely delivering locomotives, they were having difficulty with sales, from a conversation I had with a well known supplier of Atlas O product. It wasn't because their engines were not good. They were and still are marvelously detailed engines. But buyers were more attracted to the DCS and Legacy Command Control systems. Buyers liked the better sounds and functionality of those newer systems than the Railsounds 4.0 in TMCC. That, combined with Kader pulling all manufacturing of trains from all the train companies, including Lionel, and sidling up with Bachman, severely curtailed Atlas O production (and to a lesser extent, their HO & N scales too). Once K-Line went out of business, only Atlas and 3rd Rail were left to license TMCC to.
Other than some of the tooling, the real prize was the use of the MTH factory. Time will tell if Atlas production and delivery gets better now that they'll have a dedicated manufacturer.
Lionel abandoned TMCC? You can run TMCC locomotives with the CAB-2 so there is backward compatibility. LionChief’s job is to get an easy to use, simple remote into the hands of those new to the hobby. From LionChief it’s an inevitable that Legacy will find its way to their layouts.
im not surprised to learn that the locomotives made with the old MTH tooling will come in Atlas boxes. (It was mentioned on the forum though that they would be in MTH boxes)
As for the option to use the DCS license, it could be included with the MTH tooling at no additional cost to Atlas. In any case, I would find it hard to believe that Atlas would market O gauge trains that could come with either TMCC or DCS. It would be a complicated approach to the market. That’s why I believe that Atlas will only offer one command control system for its locomotives. If you’re Atlas and you have to choose one system, which one do you choose? Think ahead to 2023 or 2024 when these locomotives finally show up.
@Madockawando posted:Lionel abandoned TMCC? You can run TMCC locomotives with the CAB-2 so there is backward compatibility......
......As for the option to use the DCS license, it could be included with the MTH tooling at no additional cost to Atlas. In any case, I would find it hard to believe that Atlas would market O gauge trains that could come with either TMCC or DCS. It would be a complicated approach to the market. That’s why I believe that Atlas will only offer one command control system for its locomotives. If you’re Atlas and you have to choose one system, which one do you choose? Think ahead to 2023 or 2024 when these locomotives finally show up.
As in, they don't manufacture TMCC anymore.
We'll never know what the terms are of the DCS license. But you are probably right that Atlas will offer only one command system. Either the antiquated TMCC that limited their sales, or the newly licensed command system. During the infancy of TMCC Lionel offered command and conventional versions of their scale locomotives. That didn't last long.
I have both DCS and Legacy on my pretty large layout, and run both Lionel and MTH trains. 99% of the time I use DCS.....IMO it's a much better system. So Atlas and DCS will be a great combination.
@Traindiesel posted:As in, they don't manufacture TMCC anymore.
We'll never know what the terms are of the DCS license. But you are probably right that Atlas will offer only one command system. Either the antiquated TMCC that limited their sales, or the newly licensed command system. During the infancy of TMCC Lionel offered command and conventional versions of their scale locomotives. That didn't last long.
Wow. Traindiesel, when you put it that way (and after reading your other post) my guess would be that Atlas will go with DCS if under the license agreement that Atlas would get access to any new or improved sound files from the yet unnamed DCS entity. It will be an interesting year for O gauge.
It will be an interesting year. And it sounds like there are more announcements to come. We’ll see what happens soon I guess.
Isn't Atlas supposed to announce new projects today? Per their press release?
@rdj92807 posted:I have both DCS and Legacy on my pretty large layout, and run both Lionel and MTH trains. 99% of the time I use DCS.....IMO it's a much better system. So Atlas and DCS will be a great combination.
I assume that you have a Lionel Legacy Command and Control set... In what ways do you find DCS superior? Ease of set up? Reliability? features? Are there features that DCS has that Legacy doesn't have? I'm not trying to play "stump the chump" here. I have not used DCS.
I would say that going through the MTH ScaleTrax catalog I was startled to read the following in the FAQ section of the MTH catalog:
"Question: Does the blackening of the center rail need to be removed for DCS operation?
ANSWER: Yes, I found that if you don't remove the blackening on the very top of the rail you get sparking from pick up rollers in conventional or DCS operation."
Now, I could see a disclaimer from MTH that says: "If you use DCS and use BRAND X's track you will need to do this to BRAND X's track before you use DCS." Instead, MTH is saying that "before you use our operating system on our track, you have to make a significant modification to our track before you use our command system on it." I would think that your company's premier track system should be ready to support your premier command system right out of the box. I can't imagine removing the blackening from the top of the central rail of all the track of a large layout. Are there other modifications that need to be made to a layout in order to run DCS?
@superwarp1 posted:Isn't Atlas supposed to announce new projects today? Per their press release?
Yes, you are correct. My guess is that they will do it around 12:00 EST
@Madockawando posted:I would say that going through the MTH ScaleTrax catalog I was startled to read the following in the FAQ section of the MTH catalog:
"Question: Does the blackening of the center rail need to be removed for DCS operation?
ANSWER: Yes, I found that if you don't remove the blackening on the very top of the rail you get sparking from pick up rollers in conventional or DCS operation."
Now, I could see a disclaimer from MTH that says: "If you use DCS and use BRAND X's track you will need to do this to BRAND X's track before you use DCS." Instead, MTH is saying that "before you use our operating system on our track, you have to make a significant modification to our track before you use our command system on it." I would think that your company's premier track system should be ready to support your premier command system right out of the box. I can't imagine removing the blackening from the top of the central rail of all the track of a large layout. Are there other modifications that need to be made to a layout in order to run DCS?
I think that's a quote from Rich Bautista in an interview on his use of ScaleTrax. I have found this not to be the case.
Sparking is dependent on lots of variables such as humidity, the material of the pickup roller and any dirt, grime or grease on the contacting surfaces.
Personally I've had no issues with it sparking or affecting the DCS signal on any brand of track.
It's possible that some preservative is put on the track when made to ward off rust.
