I just noticed on Charles Ro's site that availability for the Base3 is now listed as November 2023.
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Wow,
Lots later than the hoped Spring of 2023.
Thanks for spotting that.
Jim
I'm not shocked at all about this
MTH is having difficulty sourcing parts for the new WTIU as well. I bet we won't see either until mid next year, although I hope I'm wrong.
Yup. Lionel themselves just recently told a friend ... 4Q 2023.
Well, that’s nice to know, I’m just hoping when it arrives, there will be no issues and that the instruction manual is a good reference guide, and possibly OGR will do a instructional DVD. This is a big adventure for many of us Legacy users, it’s nice to know the Cab 1L as well as the Cab 2 remotes work with the new Cab 3 App. Thanks for this update. Happy Railroading Everyone
@rplst8 posted:I just noticed on Charles Ro's site that availability for the Base3 is now listed as November 2023.
HEY DAVE,
Is This So???
FREDSTRAINS
I wonder if component availability is suddenly biting them in the butt? It wouldn't surprise me much.
I’ll just have to wait a bit longer to enjoy the full potential of a Lionel Legacy locomotive with the Base 3 vs. using the universal remote. Being new o scale the 990 isn’t available unless you’re willing to pay ridiculous prices on eBay. I have a couple more Legacy’s on preorder, I’ll have to get another universal remote with them.
Gene
Like many of you, I had hoped to begin using the Base 3 in a few months. But, we can't always get what we want (wasn't that a Rolling Stones song?)
I have no doubt that Lionel is working hard on bringing the product to market since it's in their best interest to do so.
If any or you have tried to buy household appliances recently, you'll know that for many specific items there is 2-6 month wait.
And EVs? Almost impossible to find other than few base models.
Can't blame Lionel ... or Dave. It is disappointing.
@rthomps posted:Like many of you, I had hoped to begin using the Base 3 in a few months. But, we can't always get what we want (wasn't that a Rolling Stones song?)
I have no doubt that Lionel is working hard on bringing the product to market since it's in their best interest to do so.
If any or you have tried to buy household appliances recently, you'll know that for many specific items there is 2-6 month wait.
And EVs? Almost impossible to find other than few base models.
Can't blame Lionel ... or Dave. It is disappointing.
Totally understand. We live in a new 55+ community and the last sold unit took almost 2 months waiting for Anderson windows.
Well, the resale price of your CAB2 Legacy Base just shot up today, along with the stock market.
Hard to tell where the hangups are. Product could be missing components, or might be completed but sitting in a box somewhere: I ordered a Snapper mower in March of 2021, and it didn't arrive until March 2022. The build date on the mower? March 2021!
At a recent industry meeting, an electronics manufacturer posted a slide showing lead times from major semiconductor (chips, transistors) manufacturers. Most were at 12+ months.
I spoke to Rich Sutton of MTH at York, he said the new DCS base was expected April 2023. He said it was issues with components and also quality issues,that the supply chain is brutal for almost all of it. Not a surprise , this is happening with almost everything. No matter where stuff is assembled, getting the parts is really, really difficult. Was speaking to a friend who works in the auto supply chain, said car production is still hampered, operating at best at 80%.
And no this isn't the fault of Lionel or MTH, what happens is they have a projected schedule that takes into account delivery of components, they are told it is good, then they get notified some component is either delayed or worse, suddenly no longer being made. This is a classic example of what happens when you don't have control of your supply chain, it is why with lean production they emphasized local suppliers .
All we can do is hope. I am wiring my layout for block control, if the stuff shows up when I am ready to run trains, great, if not I'll run conventional. One thing that could screw this up, if Covid flares in China&they pull shutdowns, it could throw another monkey wrench in things.
I have a project waiting in the wings, but I can't proceed because of component availability, so I know it's real. Most of the processors I use have a one year lead time!
This whole O scale command situation is ridiculous.
@PRRick posted:This whole O scale command situation is ridiculous.
I hear ya but ...
Exactly how? I have what I need. Most everyone I know has what they need. Newbies have to find what they need, pre-owned and probably at high cost, but it's there.
Where is the crisis? With people who think that they must have more than they need, just in case? Or, with folks who absolutely have to have the latest?
It might be these, but it's also clearly with a lack of patience. We all need to practice relaxing a bit. I'm at the front of the line needing to do so myself.
Relaxation is the main reason most people take up a hobby. This is probably a good time to calm down and wait it out.
Mike
If you're new to the hobby and want to run high-end command stuff, you're pretty much screwed these days. If you've been running command for a while, you shouldn't feel any of this nonsense. I'm still running TMCC. It does what I want it to do, reliably every time. I have spare Base-1's and Cab-1's, bought on the cheap when everyone was 'upgrading' to Legacy ($50 or less each for a Base-1 or Cab-1). I personally will never buy a Base-3, regardless of when they are available or what they cost.
Don't mind me, just seeing what all the fuss is about...
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Rumor today, maybe the cab 3 app/base will be delayed until next year? And another rumor, Lionel isn’t repairing the Cab 2 sets any longer…. Can someone verify this rumor, I hope it isn’t true… MartyE, Gunrunner John, Harmonyards, Lionel? Trainworld, Charles Ro, Anyone… I understand the Cab 1L remotes are the remotes of choice now, but, the Cab 2 remote is so much more fun. Happy Railroading Everyone
@leapinlarry posted:Rumor today, maybe the cab 3 app/base will be delayed until next year? And another rumor, Lionel isn’t repairing the Cab 2 sets any longer…. Can someone verify this rumor, I hope it isn’t true… MartyE, Gunrunner John, Harmonyards, Lionel? Trainworld, Charles Ro, Anyone… I understand the Cab 1L remotes are the remotes of choice now, but, the Cab 2 remote is so much more fun. Happy Railroading Everyone
Well, that's not good news if true. We pre-ordered CAB1L remotes & a Base 3 for the club last year and our dealer called last week and wanted us to take delivery of the CAB1L remotes. We initially told them to hold the remotes until the BASE 3 shipped but he wasn't sure when that would be, also wouldn't confirm that it would be this year (2023)... They wanted to make sure that we got our CAB1L remotes so that they wouldn't be sold out or unavailable when the BASE 3 arrives.
@H1000, my advice is, if you have the Cab 2 Legacy system, cab 2 and Legacy base, go ahead and secure the Cab 1L’ s while you can. I’ll make the call to Lionel tomorrow for my own verification. Although I like the Legacy System, it’s beyond me why Lionel can’t keep this system up and running with new remotes. It’s All About the MONEY, and we actually have the money. Nuff Sayd. Happy Railroading Everyone
@leapinlarry That's what we did. This club does have a Base 2 with a CAB2 and CAB1L. There's interest with the new CAB3 app and everyone is comfortable with the CAB1L and a couple more would be nice as backups / spares.
The writing is on the wall for the CAB2 especially when Lionel stops repairing/supporting them (if it hasn't happened already according to your rumor). The CAB1L being a simpler device has a better chance of longer product life but much like a fine wine, eventually all good things come to an end.
Maybe just do a @Dave Olson and maybe her can confirm or deny if he chooses. Unfortunately the last time Dave talked about something no longer being sold, like the ERR components, it turned into a crap fest so I wouldn’t count on him commenting nor do I blame him.
As far as Lionel making more Cab2s, I’m not sure how many ways they have to tell us it’s an obsolescence issue of components. I’m sure they could actually make them if we wanted to pay the price to get them re-engineered. I know I am not a fan of App based controllers but I am also realistic to the need to move away from a dedicated remote and just supply software to a phone. There are so many more features you can add to an App that the limits of hardware might otherwise prevent. Again ido prefer a hardware handheld but I also see some of the advantages of app when it comes to expanding the system.
Lionel said they’d repair Cab2s as long as they had inventory of parts so I would believe this would be the determining factor on whether they repair them or not.
@leapinlarry I look forward to seeing what you find out.
I have no inside information, but if that rumor is true (that the Base3 is now pushed out to 2024) then I think the lesson that Lionel should take from this is that they're trying to do too much in one package.
As I understand it, it has radios for Bluetooth, WiFi, original LionChief, and Legacy remotes (Cab-2 and Cab-1L). That's A LOT of RF to have to support in one box. (Edit: Oh! and the 455kHz track signal interface.)
The other thought I would submit is that it's very likely that while the Bluetooth and WiFi radios are likely commodity parts (something that is already self contained and maybe even FCC certified or registered) they put themselves at the mercy of these parts being available. If something on those parts change, it can have downstream dependencies in the rest of the design.
I think this design is really just trading off one set of "gotchas" that the physical remote/base had for another set of gotchas in dealing with integration challenges on such a complex mix of technology.
I wonder if in the interim, Lionel could take a different tack and offer a Base3-Lite that is just the electronics from the Base-1L inside of the Base3 shell using the new power supply that allows the TMCC/Legacy signal to work and meets whatever new rules the UL had for transformers that necessitated them discontinuing the old Base-1L. Something like this would at least let people use their new Cab-1Ls and control most of the functions of their new Legacy locomotives.
@MartyE posted:Maybe just do a @Dave Olson and maybe her can confirm or deny if he chooses. Unfortunately the last time Dave talked about something no longer being sold, like the ERR components, it turned into a crap fest so I wouldn’t count on him commenting nor do I blame him.
In all fairness Marty, the announcement of discontinuing the ERR line has a much larger impact than a few months delay of the BASE3! As far as the other parts of the rumor, we already knew that the CAB2 has a limited life.
@MartyE posted:Maybe just do a @Dave Olson and maybe her can confirm or deny if he chooses. Unfortunately the last time Dave talked about something no longer being sold, like the ERR components, it turned into a crap fest so I wouldn’t count on him commenting nor do I blame him.
As far as Lionel making more Cab2s, I’m not sure how many ways they have to tell us it’s an obsolescence issue of components. I’m sure they could actually make them if we wanted to pay the price to get them re-engineered.
Going back to M.R. I've always felt like the shots were called upstairs from the service dept, and these guys have to figure out how to make x happen.
However, every time I search a DCC remote system. I see a handheld with a screen ,buttons, and a throttle knob. I wonder, what if.
Maybe eliminating the cab 2 cuts down on warranty repairs. If you drop your phone and Crack the screen . It's your problem.
Back to base 3, I wish the best for those that order it. Hopefully someone will have a more accurate eta from Dave. Ive always found him responsive to emails.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:In all fairness Marty, the announcement of discontinuing the ERR line has a much larger impact than a few months delay of the BASE3! As far as the other parts of the rumor, we already knew that the CAB2 has a limited life.
I am specifically talk about the Cab2 repair issue. If Lionel is no longer accepting Legacy systems for repair I imagine that might be so well received but if parts are an issue there is not much Lionel can do about it.
Base 3 I don't necessarily have an issue with being delayed as I want it done right as Dave has always said was his goal.
@MartyE posted:Base 3 I don't necessarily have an issue with being delayed as I want it done right as Dave has always said was his goal.
I'm not worried about the BASE3. Although I may eventually have one, I see no reason to be in the first wave of beta testers! 
Since I have the Legacy system and a spare command base, I'm set right now for Lionel command control.
@MartyE posted:I am specifically talk about the Cab2 repair issue. If Lionel is no longer accepting Legacy systems for repair I imagine that might be so well received but if parts are an issue there is not much Lionel can do about it.
It wouldn't surprised me if that happened. Keeping with the move that saw all the TMCC and early Legacy parts suddenly declared obsolete and yanked from the parts site, dropping support for the current Legacy system would follow right along. It seems apparent that Lionel is not interested in keeping older stuff running in hopes you'll jump on their new bandwagon and spend more money.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:In all fairness Marty, the announcement of discontinuing the ERR line has a much larger impact than a few months delay of the BASE3! As far as the other parts of the rumor, we already knew that the CAB2 has a limited life.
Sorry, I know this thread is about Cab3, but I must have missed something. Is Lionel no longer going to be supplying the ERR boards to 3rd rail? Or was this the older legacy boards?
With Cab3, I don't think the complexity is why it is delayed, it is quite frankly that production in China is a ***** (fill in your favorite expression). MTH has the same problem, and the new DCS is not quite as complex, and they are delayed (I suspect it won't show this spring, but that is another story). Everyone is having problems, Apple has trouble getting components still, and it isn't even complex things, parts for things like lawn mowers and small engines have problems.
As far as the command control units being delayed, it will affect newcomers to the hobby pretty heavily or those looking to get into it if it is delayed into next year (folks, that will be basically 4 years without them having command control units for sale; at least lionel with lc 2.0 and later legacy have bluetooth connectivity via the App). And based on what I have seen around, I don't think people are going to spend a ton of money on old DCS or Base 2 systems people have for sale *shrug*.
@bigkid posted:Sorry, I know this thread is about Cab3, but I must have missed something. Is Lionel no longer going to be supplying the ERR boards to 3rd rail? Or was this the older legacy boards?
I think that was in reference to the original discontinuation announcement. Luckily that crisis was mostly averted when Scott and 3rd Rail stepped up to the plate to take ownership of that product line.
With Cab3, I don't think the complexity is why it is delayed, it is quite frankly that production in China is a ***** (fill in your favorite expression). MTH has the same problem, and the new DCS is not quite as complex, and they are delayed (I suspect it won't show this spring, but that is another story). Everyone is having problems, Apple has trouble getting components still, and it isn't even complex things, parts for things like lawn mowers and small engines have problems.
You might be right. I may be placing too much focus on the "do-it-all" aspect of the Base3. I typically favor modular designs though.
As far as the command control units being delayed, it will affect newcomers to the hobby pretty heavily or those looking to get into it if it is delayed into next year (folks, that will be basically 4 years without them having command control units for sale; at least lionel with lc 2.0 and later legacy have bluetooth connectivity via the App). And based on what I have seen around, I don't think people are going to spend a ton of money on old DCS or Base 2 systems people have for sale *shrug*.
In the short term, I see prices continuing to be crazy high for the Cab-2 990 and 993 sets, as well as the Base-1L that are on the secondary market. I wonder how long it will be until someone reverse engineers the Bluetooth communications with the locomotives and offers an app of their own that can control a a bunch of locomotives, and undercuts much of the appeal of the Base3. It still doesn't help control older TMCC and non-BT Legacy engines, but it would at least get operations down to say an older TMCC Cab-1 and a phone for anything newer.
Well we have little control over any of this. If Base 3 is delayed I suspect if it's a parts issue then Lionel doesn't either. I'm sure there is nothing Dave and the Lionel folks would like more than to have us using it ASAP. From what I have seen Dave showed us on "Demos with Dave" it looks like it will be a lot of fun. BTW we are due for another DWD aren't we?
Cab2 parts and repair basically the same. If Lionel doesn't have the parts then there's nothing they can do about it. I suspect not all parts would be "poof" gone so it maybe Lionel repairs these on a basis of availability depending on what the issue is.
I do know that I was always careful with my Cab2 and I am even more so now but sometime stuff happens and things fail.
I'll see what and if Larry finds anything out. As I stated in the "Stress" thread, I just don't let train stuff bother me to that degree anymore. Bae 3 will get here when it gets here and knock on wood my Legacy system is still working fine.
@MartyE posted:Cab2 parts and repair basically the same. If Lionel doesn't have the parts then there's nothing they can do about it. I suspect not all parts would be "poof" gone so it maybe Lionel repairs these on a basis of availability depending on what the issue is.
Marty, I never expected all the TMCC & early Legacy electronics to go "poof" and be gone in an instant, so I guess I'm not so confident!
@MartyE posted:Well we have little control over any of this. If Base 3 is delayed I suspect if it's a parts issue then Lionel doesn't either. I'm sure there is nothing Dave and the Lionel folks would like more than to have us using it ASAP. From what I have seen Dave showed us on "Demos with Dave" it looks like it will be a lot of fun. BTW we are due for another DWD aren't we?
Cab2 parts and repair basically the same. If Lionel doesn't have the parts then there's nothing they can do about it. I suspect not all parts would be "poof" gone so it maybe Lionel repairs these on a basis of availability depending on what the issue is.
I do know that I was always careful with my Cab2 and I am even more so now but sometime stuff happens and things fail.
I'll see what and if Larry finds anything out. As I stated in the "Stress" thread, I just don't let train stuff bother me to that degree anymore. Bae 3 will get here when it gets here and knock on wood my Legacy system is still working fine.
Next Ryan & Dave show is Thursday Jan12th at 1PM Eastern.
Jim
I don't think Lionel is happy this unit is delayed, I think they realize the potential for it, given it can control pretty much anything they have offered and how much they have advertised it. Just to give context on the continuing mess with China, I was just reading this article about how all these companies are shifting operations out of China/Asia and into in this case Mexico, and it is so rapid (and please, don't make this a political thing, it isn't, or whether I think it is good or bad, it is just to give context) that they can't keep up with the logistics on the border crossing points, roads, bridges, rail, warehouses. That I think tells you how bad it is, and why Lionel and other things are so delayed.
My thought is that people who have been in the hobby for years already have TMCC, Legacy, or some version thereof (e.g., cab-1L and base), as several have noted. Newbies are mostly buying new locos which can be controlled by the app or the Universal Remote. A boatload of angst about the Base 3 delays, given these realities (and the $55 MSRP of the Universal Remote) would be a mystery to me, for that reason. If you like the app, that works. If you like a physical remote, you already have one or more, or can buy a Universal Remote that does a lot of the basic important stuff. The inability to provide track would be a much bigger issue, for example.
PS--I'm pretty sure I'll get a Base 3, whether I need it or not 
, down the road. Yoda says "Patient, be you" and enjoy today.
@Landsteiner posted:My thought is that people who have been in the hobby for years already have TMCC, Legacy, or some version thereof (e.g., cab-1L and base), as several have noted.
Ding ding. It seems like a lot of the pining for the Base 3 already have one of the above. Same people who must have the newest thing because it's new. If someone already has a 990/Base 1L/TMCC base they are good to go. It's mostly a problem for people who just started and are trying to get a Legacy system, which is NOT 98% of the people posting here wondering where the Base 3 is. They just want their new toy.
Well, I am a guy who bought his first Legacy engine in late 2020, has bought more since, and still can’t access most features because Lionel has no product to offer and I refuse to spend $800+ at auction on a used, unwarranted 990.
This *is* a mess. Lionel will be going on 3 years offering high-end engines in its catalog for which it does not offer a controller.
Now that I’m halfway through my 73rd year on this wonderful planet I’m just about done with all this crap. Enjoyment is rapidly diminishing.
"This *is* a mess. Lionel will be going on 3 years offering high-end engines in its catalog for which it does not offer a controller."
I know delays are frustrating, but......Not to be unduly argumentative, there are much bigger messes. Just visit our Emergency Department any time in the last few years or your local funeral parlor. I know, inappropriate attempt at black humor. Point is, most of us have seen much, much worse than a year or two delay in some toy train product in recent years. And this delay isn't impossible or fatal.
I also don't think your comment is entirely accurate. The cab-1L and base, and even the 990 were still available at many dealers as recently as a year or so ago. I know because I bought them as soon as it was announced they were going bye-bye. That availability changed rapidly, but I think it's closer to a one year hiatus, than three, for most of us who delayed getting Legacy for a decade or so.
Practical questions. Have you tried the app? It controls every single Legacy function and is free. If you want a remote the $55 Universal Remote provides all the commonly used Legacy functions that most people use. Whistle, reverse, speed control, electrocoupler, horn. It's a bargain and except for really large layouts, its Bluetooth function is more reliable, in my hands, than TMCC, Legacy or DCS.
@Landsteiner posted:Practical questions. Have you tried the app? It controls every single Legacy function and is free.
Yes, and I'm unimpressed, especially with the fine speed control! At least MTH was smart enough to put a +/- on the throttle so you could easily make small speed step adjustments. Also, any operation with the app ends up being a 2-handed operation.
@Landsteiner posted:If you want a remote the $55 Universal Remote provides all the commonly used Legacy functions that most people use. Whistle, reverse, speed control, electrocoupler, horn. It's a bargain and except for really large layouts, its Bluetooth function is more reliable, in my hands, than TMCC, Legacy or DCS.
First off, the Universal remote has a fraction of the speed steps than either the CAB2 or CAB1L offer, so operation starts off with a bang and has very course speed steps. As near as I can tell there are between 16 and 20 speed steps from the Universal Remote.
Even basic TMCC has 32 speed steps, and a vast majority of my TMCC/Legacy engines have at least 100 speed steps (ERR Cruise), or 200 speed steps (Legacy). Add to that with the Universal Remote I don't have access to the momentum or train brake features, I can't turn the smoke on and off, etc. and it just ain't the same!
Finally, BT has lousy range here as well as at the store and in our modular club outings. If you're more than about 15-20 feet max from the locomotive, you frequently lose control. That applies to all the BT devices I have access to. I've tried the Universal Remote, my Samsung Galaxy S21, and an iPhone 12, none of them can reliably run a BT engine end to end on my 12 x 24 layout, never mind driving into the yard extension that adds another 15 feet! This is with multiple Legacy and LC+ 2.0 engines, they all have lousy range. (Forget about the "new" longer range BT, that's not a reality for us yet unless we bought the one engine that has it!)
Another consideration, I have scads of locomotives that don't have Bluetooth, so I'm totally out of luck with them!
Contrast that to my TMCC/Legacy experience, I get perfect operation anywhere on the layout standing anywhere in the room, or even the adjacent room! I can run every one of my TMCC, Legacy, and LC+ 2.0 locomotives using a real remote with no compromises like chasing the locomotive around the layout so the remote doesn't get more than 10-12 feet from it!
No one is claiming the app or Universal Remote answers everyone's needs. But they perhaps could meet most of the needs of those just starting out with new Lionel locos in the last couple of years, and who are awaiting the Base 3 for the "big enchilada" approach to the hobby. The rest of us already have our needs mostly met via previous equipment such as TMCC, Legacy, etc., as pointed out. No need to discourage new hobbyists interested in Lionel command control is my primary thought. Transitional approaches to command control are feasible and perhaps suitable for many while the current limitations sort themselves out.
As far as I know the universal remote only works for lionchief engines, it doesn't work with Legacy engines and definitely not TMCC. If you have a legacy engine with bluetooth you can use the app, but that is relatively recent engines only. And a lot of people don't buy brand new engines, so the legacy engines they buy will basically be orphans. From the moment Lionel announced that the Base 3 was coming and the 990 was going away, they disappeared really, really fast from dealers. I was at York in October 2021, and I didn't see any 990's there, and none at the later Yorks either. If you saw them, they were on Ebay going for a thousand bucks or more, and not new (I suspect people bought up the 990's when Lionel made their announcement, some to have backups for themselves, others to make an expected killing on a 'collectors' item).
No, this isn't a tragedy like people dying, in my case I'll simply run conventional until the Base 3 and /or DCS shows up, it won't change my life. And yeah, a lot of the people who want to run command already are, but there are more than a few looking to start using command control. Base3 of course has one big feature, one base, one app to run any Lionel CC engine, that is pretty huge and tempting.
Wow! This thread certainly got lit up! What other 'HOT' items can I pre-order and not receive for a couple of years???
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Wow! This thread certainly got lit up! What other 'HOT' items can I pre-order and not receive for a couple of years???
There have been a number over the years, I'm not sure if anyone ever got the one run of milk cars! 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:There have been a number over the years, I'm not sure if anyone ever got the one run of milk cars!
OH BOY! I'm IN for TWO SETS!!!! 
@bigkid posted:As far as I know the universal remote only works for lionchief engines, it doesn't work with Legacy engines and definitely not TMCC.
I think the Universal remote will control Legacy engines with Bluetooth. So, the same restriction as the App, it must be a newer one with a Bluetooth receiver in it.
From the moment Lionel announced that the Base 3 was coming and the 990 was going away, they disappeared really, really fast from dealers. I was at York in October 2021, and I didn't see any 990's there, and none at the later Yorks either. If you saw them, they were on Ebay going for a thousand bucks or more, and not new (I suspect people bought up the 990's when Lionel made their announcement, some to have backups for themselves, others to make an expected killing on a 'collectors' item).
Yeah, a few folks have painted it as if there wasn't a shortage of the Cab-2s before the pandemic. I had searched high and low for one before the pandemic, but could never find one. Most dealers were sold out. I think some of the smaller shops that didn't do online sales had a few. But how was anyone to know that a random shop, three or more hours away that doesn't do online sales had one?
So at that time, I was just biding time until Lionel did another run of them, and would purchase from a forum sponsor here.
Once the announcement came through that they Cab-2 was out, I called about 25 dealers until I found one, and I paid full retail for the pleasure. Oh, and it had to go straight to Lionel so that I could update it to the latest firmware since it had version 1.0 on it!
It's at moments like this that I'm reminded of famous disasters of biblical proportions.
"Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!”" Bill Murray as Dr. Venkman in Ghostbusters
Or even better:
"The horror, the horror..." Conrad's Colonel Kurtz
I do hope sincerely that all who are dissatisfied with the current state of affairs can find temporizing solutions and peace of mind by whatever means possible. I paid full retail for my 990 and 993 too, and my ancestors are probably turning in their graves, but what the hey.
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Wow! This thread certainly got lit up! What other 'HOT' items can I pre-order and not receive for a couple of years???
Anything from the old MTH.
@RoyBoy posted:Anything from the old MTH.
The new "legacy equipped" old MTH items have been arriving on time for the most part.😉
Hi @MartyE, Marty, I talked to Lionel customer service this morning (as I said yesterday) asking for them to service my two Cab 2 remotes that go to my expansion sets and told the lady my issues and they emailed me an RA right away. She indicated the Base 3 would probably make it mid to late this year, 2023…. So, Jodi in Lionel customer service made my day.
@MartyE, I sent you an email and wondering if it arrived. My email is in my profile. Please give me a shout. Happy Railroading Everyone
So after a page and a half of panic. Lionel is still repairing cab2's and the cab 3 is still due mid 23 sometime?
I guess it may be best to steer clear of Rumors.
Yes, @RickO, I believe you nailed it, Rumors are not always correct, now, my thinking is to see what Dave and Ryan, the Lionel duo have to say on the 12th…. The new catalog debut should be interesting and hopefully by that I’m hoping they can give us the answers we are looking to hear. Cab 3 is on a lot of folks minds and Lionel needs to give an accurate update on when it will be available….. Happy Railroading Everyone
@RickO posted:So after a page and a half of panic. Lionel is still repairing cab2's and the cab 3 is still due mid 23 sometime?
I guess it may be best to steer clear of Rumors.
I agree Rick.
When I originally made this thread, one of the big dealers had the date as November. To me that wasn’t rumor.
They’ve since moved it up to July, while another major dealer has September.
Hi Wow Pat, beautiful layout and thanks for all your help with my comet!
Alan Mancus
Mth Wtiu on one major train dealer shows April 23. I think that probably is going to be close to accurate. I say this because April is only 3 months away. They have to be in production by now to deliver in April. If MTH knows there is a delay, they would have updated by now.
My main issue is how will any of us newbies in the hobby be able to afford to run both Lionel and MTH engines. $499 for a base 3. $399 for a WTIU plus a Lcs ser2 and $100 for a brick at minimum equates to at least $1000.
lionel needs to offer an affordable legacy base solution like the base1L was.
right now I’m gonna order a WTIU AND Z1000 brick and call it a day. As much as I love Lionel engines, I have to choose 1 or the other for the time being. And as it seems the MTH one will available first, it’s the logical choice.
@Pugsly14 posted:lionel needs to offer an affordable legacy base solution like the base1L was.
Do keep in mind that most if not all Lionel engines now have Bluetooth and can be run with the free app on a smart phone or tablet. You can also purchase the universal remote and run up to three of any Lionchief or Bluetooth equipped engine with basic movement and sounds (Whistle, Bell, Crew Talk). While this doesn't help if you have or want older Lionel stuff without Bluetooth, it's at least the future of their product offerings.
@H1000 posted:... while this doesn't help if you have or want older Lionel stuff without Bluetooth, it's at least the future of their product offerings.
You're right. This is not at all helpful, unless you only have new engines, which in fact is not most of us. We do care about the future, but not so much when compared to the past.
This is largely because of our existing collections and, going forward, the need to spread our new purchases out over years so as to make them affordable.
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:You're right. This is not at all helpful, unless you only have new engines, which in fact is not most of us. We do care about the future, but not so much when compared to the past.
This is largely because of our existing collections and, going forward, the need to spread our new purchases out over years so as to make them affordable.
Mike
Agreed Mike, The backward and forward compatibility with Lionel is a jumble and left some of the previous premium offerings out in the cold with this newer tech. Way back around the time Lionel introduce Lionchief, there were calls already back then to make a Bridge device between this new proprietary control system and existing TMCC/Legacy base technology. It's finally almost here... kind of reminds me of the Free Guy movie trailer Ryan Reynolds made to deal with announcing a new movie that was constantly delayed.
Anyone know for sure how many people at MTH and Lionel are working on command control? I'm guessing 1-2 at MTH and maybe 2-4 at Lionel. Talk about shoe string operations . These are tiny companies. We have local restaurants with more employees than all of Lionel, and food trucks with more employees than all of MTH.
The WTIU is basically just a repackaging of technology MTH has already delivered. Hopefully that will make it easier to deliver even given all of the supply chain issues that both have experienced. I'm wondering when we'll really see the Base3 from Lionel. My gut tells me next year. Hope I'm wrong.
Given that the years are going by faster and will continue to accelerate at a geometrical rate, I have decided no more new technologies or associated systems going forward.
I am content with MTH ps-2 & ps-3 along with TMCC and some dearly loved though old, conventional. I will cede the future of locomotive control and options to those smarter and more open minded than myself.
I believe there is and will continue to be a prodigious market of used equipment at reasonable prices. With my failing eyesight the equipment looks as good as something expensive and promised in catalogs for tomorrow.
For now, the race between how many years I have left on the planet and the last used but working TIU "for sale; is on.
Wish me luck!
kevin
I like reading about the new technologies, but I prefer to be an observer.
@Landsteiner posted:Anyone know for sure how many people at MTH and Lionel are working on command control? I'm guessing 1-2 at MTH and maybe 2-4 at Lionel. Talk about shoe string operations
Are you implying that the delays we're seeing are due to a shortage of people and not a shortage of parts?
Based on the continuous flow of comments and suggestions to this forum what we clearly don't have is a shortage of well-intentioned suggestions for fixing the situation, regardless of cause. It's good that we have a vibrant peanut gallery. In most cases varying opinions are genuinely helpful.
However how many of us in it actually have experience designing, manufacturing and delivering electronics?
Some, but not many? Maybe we all need to leave it in the capable hands of the experts rather than pushing speculation ad nauseum.
Mike
"Are you implying that the delays we're seeing are due to a shortage of people and not a shortage of parts?"
I'm suggesting that whatever shortage of parts or development delays could be more difficult to deal with given the very small number of staff involved at Lionel and MTH. A company like Apple or Subaru probably has hundreds or thousands of people working on their development of a given technology or innovation. Might help and can't hurt. Scrounging around for substitute parts and alternate suppliers, testing of prototypes, etc., takes time and effort, and there is no substitute for more bodies.
Agreed. If you can accept the hit to the bottom line.
We're already complaining that stuff is too expensive as it is.
Mike
When have people ever said that Lionel is too inexpensive? H**l would have to freeze over, thaw and freeze over again for that to happen. Complaining about prices probably began in Mesopotamia in 3000 BC .
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:However how many of us in it actually have experience designing, manufacturing and delivering electronics?
Present, both in my professional life, and now in my little cottage business with model train electronics.
Was involved in the manufacturing of semiconductors for 10 years, problems with supply chains can't always be solved with more people. The first response to to ever higher pricing is to reduce the labor costs.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Are you implying that the delays we're seeing are due to a shortage of people and not a shortage of parts?
@Landsteiner posted:I'm suggesting that whatever shortage of parts or development delays could be more difficult to deal with given the very small number of staff involved at Lionel and MTH. A company like Apple or Subaru probably has hundreds or thousands of people working on their development of a given technology or innovation.
@Darrell posted:Was involved in the manufacturing of semiconductors for 10 years, problems with supply chains can't always be solved with more people. The first response to to ever higher pricing is to reduce the labor costs.
There’s some truth in both sides of these views.
Having some depth on the bench can allow you to “surge” on a problem. This is how some manufacturing and software development methodologies work. Read up on Kanban if you’re not already familiar. Another aspect is that sometimes there are narrow windows of opportunity to complete something. With just-in-time manufacturing, all the parts need to be available, and if your small team is slow to adapt a change, then that window is narrowed further.
If a particular part is discontinued, say a transistor for example, and your design uses 100 of these in different locations on the board, you might be able to assign “regions” of the PCB layout for engineers to update simultaneously. Great.
On the other hand, not all work can be done in parallel. If a critical IC or micro is discontinued and now you have to rework one area of the board extensively and also go back and do testing and simulation, some of that must happen sequentially. In those cases more people won’t help.
Bigger question, where is the Cab3 app to replace the old and very dated iCab app?
It was supposed to be able to be used with Legacy and LCS Wifi. While sure, some features were Cab3 Base specific, again to me, releasing the app would sell hardware- trains, accessories, and bases.
@Vernon Barry posted:Bigger question, where is the Cab3 app to replace the old and very dated iCab app?
It was supposed to be able to be used with Legacy and LCS Wifi. While sure, some features were Cab3 Base specific, again to me, releasing the app would sell hardware- trains, accessories, and bases.
Unless it's not ready. I don't want it released until it's as near perfect as it can be.
I did notice, and I'm not sure it was mentioned before, the 4 digit addressing is stated to be 100-9999. Makes perfect sense but I hadn't seen that in print before but I could have missed it.
@rplst8 posted:There’s some truth in both sides of these views.
Having some depth on the bench can allow you to “surge” on a problem. This is how some manufacturing and software development methodologies work. Read up on Kanban if you’re not already familiar. Another aspect is that sometimes there are narrow windows of opportunity to complete something. With just-in-time manufacturing, all the parts need to be available, and if your small team is slow to adapt a change, then that window is narrowed further.
If a particular part is discontinued, say a transistor for example, and your design uses 100 of these in different locations on the board, you might be able to assign “regions” of the PCB layout for engineers to update simultaneously. Great.
On the other hand, not all work can be done in parallel. If a critical IC or micro is discontinued and now you have to rework one area of the board extensively and also go back and do testing and simulation, some of that must happen sequentially. In those cases more people won’t help.
This is all in line with the concept of the mythical man days, that if one person can do something in 4 days, 4 people can do it in one, and it doesn't always work. Surging on a problem, for example, requires that the work can be parallelized, which sometimes it cannot be. The other thing is larger teams can also slow down progress, where they end up stepping on each other, it all really depends on the nature of the project. IBM at one point had this concept of 'competing teams' working on the same problem, and to say it had mixed results would be an understatement (among other things,the way they had it set up, the competing teams didn't know the issues the other team had, they often stumbled on the same problems, when had they known wouldn't have attempted it).
From what the MTH guy told me at York and from what has been out there about the Cab3, most of the problem was in the supply chain, either delays in getting critical components or having a supplier mysterious say "no mas" on them. Having more people might have made redesign easier and faster if that was needed, but I suspect the delays were such that having more people wouldn't have helped (on the MTH/Lionel side of things). It doesn't sound like it was the design of the new units, debugging them, etc. While companies are notorious for vaporware, I don't think Lionel/MTH would have announced their new products (now almost 3 years ago) if they were in the design phase, they likely had working prototypes and already had the manufacturing in process (just my guess)..and then it all went to H***. Again, I doubt having more people would have helped, not that the teams involved with this were ever large to start with.
Re: "Unless it's not ready. I don't want it released until it's as near perfect as it can be."
The App is software. It will never be "complete" or perfect. I don't want to wait forever for these products.
Put Neil Young on it . Someone who has the ability to forward think 20 years into the future.😉
@bigkid posted:IBM at one point had this concept of 'competing teams' working on the same problem, and to say it had mixed results would be an understatement (among other things,the way they had it set up, the competing teams didn't know the issues the other team had, they often stumbled on the same problems, when had they known wouldn't have attempted it).
Well, IBM's competing teams actually worked better than you might imagine, one of the products that came out of that structure was the IBM 360 computer architecture! I actually worked for IBM back in those days.
@RickO posted:Put Neil Young on it . Someone who has the ability to forward think 20 years into the future.😉
20 years after TMCC came out (and 10+ years after legacy), Lionel had built many sets and Lionchief engines that still didn't work with either of those devices. Finally after 10 years of waiting and asking we get a device that can control 3 Lionchief engines with our Legacy based remotes / app.
However, he didn't have a crystal ball to tell him where technology trends were going to be in 20 or even 30 years in the future.
@H1000 posted:20 years after TMCC came out (and 10+ years after legacy), Lionel had built many sets and Lionchief engines that still didn't work with either of those devices.
Many of the Lionchief locos today were originally offered with Tmcc. Pacifics, Berkshires etc, even the Mikado in the new catalog. They were offered in sets as well as separate sale. Lionel deleted the catalogs prior to 2010. I actually started in o Guage with the Tmcc semi scale mikado and berkshire back in 2005.
Tmcc was deemed obsolete the reappeared as Lionchief 2.0. And of course, the cab1L is the Tmcc cab 1 handheld minus an external antenna.
Lionel created its own incompatibility issues, then rectified them with 2.0
The cab 2 still manages to access all of the latest whiz bang features of the newest vision line stuff.
@bigkid posted:From what the MTH guy told me at York and from what has been out there about the Cab3, most of the problem was in the supply chain, either delays in getting critical components or having a supplier mysterious say "no mas" on them. Having more people might have made redesign easier and faster if that was needed, but I suspect the delays were such that having more people wouldn't have helped (on the MTH/Lionel side of things). It doesn't sound like it was the design of the new units, debugging them, etc. While companies are notorious for vaporware, I don't think Lionel/MTH would have announced their new products (now almost 3 years ago) if they were in the design phase, they likely had working prototypes and already had the manufacturing in process (just my guess)..and then it all went to H***. Again, I doubt having more people would have helped, not that the teams involved with this were ever large to start with.
In the case of the Base3 / Cab3 App, wasn't that announced not 3 years ago, but in January 2022, 1 year ago???
Also, when Lionel announced the Base3 / Cab3 App, the App was pretty far along for controlling engines, but they hadn't even started with functions such as switches, routes, trains, etc. Apart from manufacturing challenges, the software development is a larger undertaking than we might think.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, IBM's competing teams actually worked better than you might imagine, one of the products that came out of that structure was the IBM 360 computer architecture! I actually worked for IBM back in those days.
It can work, but in practical reality what often happens is the teams, rather creatively competing to come up with a better product, end up spending more time angling to make themselves look better and get more resources. Kind of like spy agencies that often were doing things to get allocations rather than doing effective intelligence work *lol*. I met Gene Amdahl many years later when he was promoting galenium arsenide as a replacement for silicon and was working on supercomputers and feuding with Seymour Kray *lol*
@Keith L posted:In the case of the Base3 / Cab3 App, wasn't that announced not 3 years ago, but in January 2022, 1 year ago???
Also, when Lionel announced the Base3 / Cab3 App, the App was pretty far along for controlling engines, but they hadn't even started with functions such as switches, routes, trains, etc. Apart from manufacturing challenges, the software development is a larger undertaking than we might think.
Yeah you are right, the formal announcement was in Jan 2022, that is my memory playing tricks. But hadn't cab 2 basically been unavailable for a while back before that, so I assume Lionel was working on the replacement during that time. The reality to me is that by the time they formally announced the cab 3 the design work was done and they thought they would have shipments of it soon, I suspect the design work had been done long before and then they got shanked by the supply chain that is still so screwed up.
@RickO posted:Many of the Lionchief locos today were originally offered with Tmcc. Pacifics, Berkshires etc, even the Mikado in the new catalog. They were offered in sets as well as separate sale. Lionel deleted the catalogs prior to 2010. I actually started in o Guage with the Tmcc semi scale mikado and berkshire back in 2005.
Tmcc was deemed obsolete the reappeared as Lionchief 2.0. And of course, the cab1L is the Tmcc cab 1 handheld minus an external antenna.
Lionel created its own incompatibility issues, then rectified them with 2.0
The cab 2 still manages to access all of the latest whiz bang features of the newest vision line stuff.
Yes, but plenty of sets and engines were made without TMCC or were Command upgradeable. LC2 didn't hit the market until 2018-19?
I wouldn't say that TMCC was ever obsolete, It was expanded to encompass Legacy.
The technology path Lionel choose was a rocky one but now they're paving that smooth highway to included everything going forward.
@bigkid posted:Yeah you are right, the formal announcement was in Jan 2022, that is my memory playing tricks. But hadn't cab 2 basically been unavailable for a while back before that, so I assume Lionel was working on the replacement during that time. The reality to me is that by the time they formally announced the cab 3 the design work was done and they thought they would have shipments of it soon, I suspect the design work had been done long before and then they got shanked by the supply chain that is still so screwed up.
Yes, when Lionel announced the Base3 / Cab3 App, they said they had been working on it for 3-4 years. Still, at the time of the announcement, although the app was functioning well for engines, there was much more development work to be done.
@Keith L posted:Yes, when Lionel announced the Base3 / Cab3 App, they said they had been working on it for 3-4 years. Still, at the time of the announcement, although the app was functioning well for engines, there was much more development work to be done.
How do we know it functioned well for engines?
I’m actually fine with them releasing an app that is unfinished. Software is never done. That’s what makes it better that doing it all in hardware.
Say for instance the first version of the Cab3L software let us control engines but not switches. Then six months later we get an update that adds switch functionality… OK by me.
If the app<->base WiFi protocol (2.4Ghz) is the same as the current LCS WiFi protocol, then they can release the new app early. If the Base3 implements a new or extended WiFi protocol (likely with 4-digit engine numbers and other features), then we have to wait for the Base3. I have a hunch I'll be spending evenings with WireShark when I get my Base3. I hope Lionel publishes an update to the DevPartner documentation concurrent to the Base3 release to describe the protocol extensions.
@Tracker John posted:If the app<->base WiFi protocol (2.4Ghz) is the same as the current LCS WiFi protocol, then they can release the new app early. If the Base3 implements a new or extended WiFi protocol (likely with 4-digit engine numbers and other features), then we have to wait for the Base3. I have a hunch I'll be spending evenings with WireShark when I get my Base3. I hope Lionel publishes an update to the DevPartner documentation concurrent to the Base3 release to describe the protocol extensions.
Lionel has already said that the CAB3L app will work with existing BASE2 & LCS WiFi systems, I don't see why the app can't get rolled out today. Even for folks that don't have a BASE2, the CAB3b side of the app will still work with all Bluetooth equipped locomotives.
I doubt Lionel will release any of the protocol used in the app, I think you'll be spending a lot of time reverse engineering it. The Legacy commands (for use with a serial port) have already been published.
@rplst8 posted:How do we know it functioned well for engines?
That's what Lionel said.
@H1000 posted:Lionel has already said that the CAB3L app will work with existing BASE2 & LCS WiFi systems, I don't see why the app can't get rolled out today. Even for folks that don't have a BASE2, the CAB3b side of the app will still work with all Bluetooth equipped locomotives.
I doubt Lionel will release any of the protocol used in the app, I think you'll be spending a lot of time reverse engineering it. The Legacy commands (for use with a serial port) have already been published.
I don't know anything about the WiFi protocol, but when I asked Lionel last fall if they might release the Cab3 App before the Base3, they said no. Personally, I hope that changes...but we'll have to wait and see.
Maybe Lionel is concerned that releasing the Cab3 app before the base will show folks they really don't need the base. So maybe they will just wait until the base arrives. Just speculating.
@Keith L posted:I don't know anything about the WiFi protocol, but when I asked Lionel last fall if they might release the Cab3 App before the Base3, they said no. Personally, I hope that changes...but we'll have to wait and see.
I agree, I think getting the CAB3 app out will help generate some more buzz about the BASE3 and some of it's features and help ramp up more orders.
I do want to try the app sooner rather than with the Base3 release. I worry the Cab3 app interface is going to drive me nuts with the clustering of touches I'll use a lot - slow speed control, Eng, Train, direction, and Emergency Stop. With my fat fingering, I'll be killing the layout more than I like.
Since the CAB3 app is your interface to the BASE3, I'd certainly want to see it before I plunked down the money for the BASE3!
Let's all play the "OGRR Speculation without Facts" game about the BASE3.
This is where we speculate about an unreleased product.
To play, just throw out a few wild guesses in the guise of facts that we can all endlessly speculate about.
it's FUN AND passes the time.
On the other hand, we can just wait until the Base 3 IS released to discover the actual features and its usefulness.
Oh Heck, what's the FUN in doing that!
I don't see how anyone get to test drive the Cab3 app if the Cab3 base system is not on their model railroad. That doesn't seem like a good use of Lionel's time. Since nobody has the Cab3 yet we would all need to pay for the Cab3 app without having the code that comes with the purchase of a Cab 3 base.
If Lionel put the Cab3 at the google play and apple stores now Lionel will need to update the app periodically even though it will not be possible to use the app. Seems like a waste of Lionel's money, another reason to see these prices rise!
This is the real problem with the app based world, developers need to update their apps periodically to keep up with changes in operating systems. If Lionel stopped updating the Cab3 app eventually the base3 would not be usable without a physical remote.
I am disappointed to see the delays but I understand.
I think Lionel has a real problem establishing value for the Base3 with the higher end hobbyist. What has been announced so far concerning it's features doesn't have me even thinking about one. The longer delivery drags on the more I think I don't need one...
What would excite people is a Cab3 Bluetooth dock for your cell phone. Just sayin!
@AlanRail posted:Let's all play the "OGRR Speculation without Facts" game about the BASE3.
This is where we speculate about an unreleased product.
To play, just throw out a few wild guesses in the guise of facts that we can all endlessly speculate about.
it's FUN AND passes the time.
On the other hand, we can just wait until the Base 3 IS released to discover the actual features and its usefulness.
Oh Heck, what's the FUN in doing that!
I hear the App 3 will summon coffee and danishes. In order to do this though it must be connected to the Base3. If you connect to the LCS WiFi box you only get a half drunken McDonald's coffee and some egg McMuffin crumbs.
@SGP posted:I don't see how anyone get to test drive the Cab3 app if the Cab3 base system is not on their model railroad. That doesn't seem like a good use of Lionel's time. Since nobody has the Cab3 yet we would all need to pay for the Cab3 app without having the code that comes with the purchase of a Cab 3 base.
If Lionel put the Cab3 at the google play and apple stores now Lionel will need to update the app periodically even though it will not be possible to use the app. Seems like a waste of Lionel's money, another reason to see these prices rise!
This is the real problem with the app based world, developers need to update their apps periodically to keep up with changes in operating systems. If Lionel stopped updating the Cab3 app eventually the base3 would not be usable without a physical remote.
I am disappointed to see the delays but I understand.
Let's clear something up and no this is not speculation this comes from question section of a demos with Dave video.
The CAB3 app has two operating modes: CAB3-B & CAB3-L. The CAB3-L mode requires a BASE3 or a BASE2 with a WiFi module so those with the latter setup could use it now but you also must buy an unlock to use the CAB3-L mode (a free unlock coupon is included with the BASE3 hardware).
The other mode is CAB3-B. This mode operates purely on the Bluetooth connectivity in your phone and will only work with Bluetooth equipped Legacy & LionCheif engines, no other hardware needed. This operating mode is completely free and will not require any unlocks, just install the app and run up to 3 engines. I speculate that the CAB3-B app will replace the current LionCheif app which can only run one engine.
So yes, it should be possible to "put the cart before the horse" in releasing the CAB3 app before the BASE3 hardware.
@MartyE posted:I hear the App 3 will summon coffee and danishes. In order to do this though it must be connected to the Base3.
Just when I thought I had no interest in the App or the base 3....
Now you've got my attention Marty!!
@RickO posted:Just when I thought I had no interest in the App or the base 3....
Now you've got my attention Marty!!
Well I didn't pre-order it to run my trains.
@bigkid posted:It can work, but in practical reality what often happens is the teams, rather creatively competing to come up with a better product, end up spending more time angling to make themselves look better and get more resources. Kind of like spy agencies that often were doing things to get allocations rather than doing effective intelligence work *lol*. I met Gene Amdahl many years later when he was promoting galenium arsenide as a replacement for silicon and was working on supercomputers and feuding with Seymour Kray *lol*
Respectfully, it’s Cray, not Kray. Unless that was a joke, in which case, I don’t get it.
Steve
Supply chain issues are, I suspect, the real problem. I occasionally bypass an area that is known for storing a VERY large quantity of Ford pickup trucks due to chip shortages. The area was full a year ago, but by late summer was empty. Sometime last fall it started filling up again and I thought this is not good. I passed the area around Dec. 20th and the lots are full again. Face it, chips are used in all parts of our lives. Some products, that use chips, will get higher priority than others. It boils down to money and essential stuff. But probably mostly money. Larger companies have deeper pockets. ‘nough said. We know it’s good to have multiple sources in supply chains.
Steve
@H1000 posted:This mode operates purely on the Bluetooth connectivity in your phone and will only work with Bluetooth equipped Legacy & LionCheif engines, no other hardware needed. This operating mode is completely free and will not require any unlocks, just install the app and run up to 3 engines. I speculate that the CAB3-B app will replace the current LionCheif app which can only run one engine.So yes, it should be possible to "put the cart before the horse" in releasing the CAB3 app before the BASE3 hardware.
I overlooked the bluetooth functionality aspect of the app and how it could have the functionality as the LionCheif app. I was thinking that the bluetooth mode of the app was just a glorified LionCheif plus app inside the app, but maybe it can give you the Legacy features through bluetooth?
@RideTheRails posted:Respectfully, it’s Cray, not Kray. Unless that was a joke, in which case, I don’t get it.
Steve
Not a joke,just a typo.
@RideTheRails posted:Respectfully, it’s Cray, not Kray. Unless that was a joke, in which case, I don’t get it.
Seymour would be upset if you misspelled his name. 
here's why I really hate these endless speculations of unreleased products; I Listen to Them.
Years ago, When DCS first appeared, there was endless speculation as to how MTH's DCS would operate. I listened and revised my layout to reflect certain false statements that were speculated as true AT THE TIME.
Yes, lazy me should have read the manual before making the changes.
I relied on the thread-SPECULATIONs instead of the real facts IN THE MANUAL.
I KNOW DUMB.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Seymour would be upset if you misspelled his name.
(Not trying to highjack the thread). GRJ - did you ever meet Amdahl or Cray? If so, wow!
Steve
Nope, I saw Seymour Cray in a meeting with folks at Univac in 1975, but we didn't get the chance to actually "meet" him. He was there pitching his supercomputer to Univac. OTOH, I did actually get to meet Bill Gates in 2007 at the Microsoft MVP week in Seattle.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I did actually get to meet Bill Gates in 2007 at the Microsoft MVP week in Seattle.
Was he handing out free copies of Windows Vista!?!?!? 🤣
@AlanRail posted:here's why I really hate these endless speculations of unreleased products…
Well, you’ve got the wrong thread. I started the thread a while back to discuss it’s availability. I noticed a marked change in the estimated delivery date On Charles Ro’s site. Since then they have adjusted it again to July rather than November.
However Dave Olsen confirmed in another thread just in the last few days that they’re hoping for 3rd quarter of this year.
The only speculation was about when we might have it in our hands, not what features it would provide or how to use it.
@H1000 posted:Was he handing out free copies of Windows Vista!?!?!? 🤣
Well, being a Microsoft MVP, I got all the software that Microsoft produced over those years. So, in a way, he was handing out Windows.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Nope, I saw Seymour Cray in a meeting with folks at Univac in 1975, but we didn't get the chance to actually "meet" him. He was there pitching his supercomputer to Univac. OTOH, I did actually get to meet Bill Gates in 2007 at the Microsoft MVP week in Seattle.
Something kind of funny about that, that is cutting edge meeting kind of all purpose, bland computing. I would guess it didn't go over well with them, I can just see the Sperry people saying "High speed computing? Who needs that?" I worked on those beasts for a number of years, the front end of the New York Stock exchange ran on Univac 1180's unto like 1986. the bond trading system back end was an 11/60 until roughly 1991.
@bigkid posted:I worked on those beasts for a number of years, the front end of the New York Stock exchange ran on Univac 1180's unto like 1986. the bond trading system back end was an 11/60 until roughly 1991.
Did you mean the Univac 1108, never heard of an 1180. There is an 1100/80, although I never saw one in person. I did a lot of development work using the 1108 in the late 70's. Actually, in the 1980's and early 1990's, I worked with the NYSE a lot, we even had an office at 11 Wall St.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Did you mean the Univac 1108, never heard of an 1180. There is an 1100/80, although I never saw one in person. I did a lot of development work using the 1108 in the late 70's. Actually, in the 1980's and early 1990's, I worked with the NYSE a lot, we even had an office at 11 Wall St.
Nope, the 1180 and 1160 were later models in the 1100 series. I never figured out what the official names were, some said 1100/80 or 1100/60, but usually referred to it as 1180 and 1160. The NYSE 1180 system actually had a Collins supposed mainframe (Collins as in radio transmitters) as a front end, they communicated by this weird coms link, and then the coms boards were in a Dec PDP 1 (not 11, 1) ....that is how the member firm lines came in until about 1986. The Bonds system ran on the 1160 platform. The 1160 was supposed to be a universal processor, you loaded in microcode via 8 inch floppy, and it had the capability where you could load in a microcode set that would allow it to run IBM System 370 code (it wasn't used like that at SIAC, ran Univac OS). What made it even more weird was the system was written in Fortran 66 (the bond system), because of its numeric handling, but boy was it spaghetti code.
@bigkid posted:What made it even more weird was the system was written in Fortran 66 (the bond system), because of its numeric handling, but boy was it spaghetti code.
Yep, the 1100/80 was the official name. As I said, I never actually encountered those, As to Fortran, Univac (Sperry) loved Fortran and much of their O/S code was actually written in Fortran. I often marveled at all the additions they made to the language to make it suitable to write O/S code.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Yep, the 1100/80 was the official name. As I said, I never actually encountered those, As to Fortran, Univac (Sperry) loved Fortran and much of their O/S code was actually written in Fortran. I often marveled at all the additions they made to the language to make it suitable to write O/S code.
I worked for a former Sperry Aerospace location in New Mexico after college. At that time it was Honeywell Defense Avionics which had purchased Sperry and had been recently taken over by Allied Signal which dissolved the Allied brand in favor of the more reputable Honeywell name.
@rplst8 posted:I worked for a former Sperry Aerospace location in New Mexico after college. At that time it was Honeywell Defense Avionics which had purchased Sperry and had been recently taken over by Allied Signal which dissolved the Allied brand in favor of the more reputable Honeywell name.
Funny the circles things run in. My dad worked for Bendix, and they ended up bought by Allied in the mid 80's after the idiot running Bendix tried an absolutely stupid hostile takeover of Martin Marietta.
Search brought up this thread - so what is the current expectation for ordering and receiving the Lionel Base 3?
I checked the Charles Ro store and the date there has moved to April 2024, is that as accurate as most estimates?
Lionel was stating Feb for "completion", so it stands to reason there'll be some time between "completion" and delivery to the end user. As for accuracy, the only people that know anything useful about that is Lionel and/or the folks in China that are actually manufacturing the product.
Dave provided his latest estimate for the Base3 at the 47 minute mark in the Live YouTube hosted by MartyE. Loaded on the boat by end of February, arrive at Lionel early April, begin shipping to dealers/customers later in April. The website for the Cab3 is planned to go live in January. I found the YouTube to be well worth the time to watch.
........."beeeechfront properteeee in Areeeeezona"...........
Just pointing out it's not just about the hardware- the app is ALSO still being developed. During the same video, it came out that intended functions are not even yet implemented such as action recording and playback. The app has been in development and had to be before they every announced this unit almost 2 years ago. Also leaked- the development "team" might be as small as one contractor.
Isn't all this speculation fun? Truth be known, I doubt anyone here knows any true facts about the delivery.
