Conversion of Williams to a LionChief- thoughts on random sound issues?

I assume that you have removed the sound board and reverse board from the Williams engine and it is completely the LionChief board for the sounds and control. ! 

Which speaker did you use the Lionel correct speaker that goes with the LionChief board or the Williams speaker? they may be different specs?

And did you put the things (what's the name????? diodes or resistors forget) on the motor that Lionel has on theirs to cut the noise from the motor? I think you need to use the correct parts for the motor draw to ensure no interference. I have found these different on the various Lionel LionChief motors.

Perhaps someone has more electrical knowledge to help you but I have done a few conversions myself with old boards and have had varied results but nothing like you are mentioning? Though my Williams engines have made odd sounds randomly before on their sound boards.

@kj356 posted:

I assume that you have removed the sound board and reverse board from the Williams engine and it is completely the LionChief board for the sounds and control. !

Which speaker did you use the Lionel correct speaker that goes with the LionChief board or the Williams speaker? they may be different specs?

And did you put the things (what's the name????? diodes or resistors forget) on the motor that Lionel has on theirs to cut the noise from the motor? I think you need to use the correct parts for the motor draw to ensure no interference. I have found these different on the various Lionel LionChief motors.

Perhaps someone has more electrical knowledge to help you but I have done a few conversions myself with old boards and have had varied results but nothing like you are mentioning? Though my Williams engines have made odd sounds randomly before on their sound boards.

Good points, on many of these early Lionchief engines, there are 2 small inductors in series with the motor- in theory to reduce EMI/RFI. I have found that in some installs or retrofits (basically this topic) that if you omit those and get range problems from the remote, this might be a valid fix.

Again basically Lionel in most RF only style Lionchiefs did add inductors in series to the motor.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...-CHOKE-NON-POLARIZED

Again, they used 2, both leads of the motor.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...R-LIONCHIEF-w-CHOKES

@kj356 posted:

I assume that you have removed the sound board and reverse board from the Williams engine and it is completely the LionChief board for the sounds and control. !

Which speaker did you use the Lionel correct speaker that goes with the LionChief board or the Williams speaker? they may be different specs?

And did you put the things (what's the name????? diodes or resistors forget) on the motor that Lionel has on theirs to cut the noise from the motor? I think you need to use the correct parts for the motor draw to ensure no interference. I have found these different on the various Lionel LionChief motors.

Perhaps someone has more electrical knowledge to help you but I have done a few conversions myself with old boards and have had varied results but nothing like you are mentioning? Though my Williams engines have made odd sounds randomly before on their sound boards.

Thanks for the ideas. Yes, all the Williams boards are removed- the sound board was dead anyway.  I did add a new speaker from Amazon per recommendation from @Vernon Barry you can see below.  It is a big improvement and Vernon was a big help!

No, I did not add any additional motor components for noise filtering- interesting thought and I totally missed any details on that.  I will do some searching to see if I can find those details.

Looks like Vernon was jumping in while I was typing.  Thanks, that was easy. 

Thanks again for the suggestions, I ordered the choke set from Lionel and will update on results.

For the RF engineers in the room, a question hit me when I considered buying these on Amazon- I had no way to figure the inductance value.  Lionel specifies 0.3 ohms, and the impedance of a choke is 2*pi*f*L.  I wonder what Lionel designers chose as the frequency of the noise they want to block with this L?  Any ideas on how to back into this answer for f and L? 

@hokie71 posted:

For the RF engineers in the room, a question hit me when I considered buying these on Amazon- I had no way to figure the inductance value.  Lionel specifies 0.3 ohms, and the impedance of a choke is 2*pi*f*L.  I wonder what Lionel designers chose as the frequency of the noise they want to block with this L?  Any ideas on how to back into this answer for f and L?

Short of measuring it, there is no way I know of.  The 0.3 ohms is almost surely the DC resistance of the inductor and nothing directly to do with figuring the inductance.

Sorry I wish I knew the value and don't have a set handy to test on a meter (capable of measuring inductance).

I will say this, the 22uH inductors we use for DCS signal impedance purposes likely would work. In other words, a good thing to buy in bulk for either purpose. Just get correct current rating for the application at hand.

I have a couple of inductance meters, but the trick is getting the inductor and the meter in one place.

Good points, that 0.3 ohms is probably dc resistance, I was getting too deep in the weeds.  the 22 uhenry inductors I have look pretty small relative to current capacity, I think I bought them for a single passenger car installation if I remember the forum discussion on this topic.

If you're looking for a suitable 22uh inductor for that application the Wurth 7447720220 should be sufficient.  It's probably bigger than the one you bought for passenger cars, those don't have the current capacity.

Sadly, no joy in Mudville on eliminating the random sounds problem by installing the chokes.  I bought the Lionel chokes and installed them today.  I am quite sure I have improved control range but will test that on a large layout on Thursday.  The chokes do not appear to have helped the random noise which seems to start when the locomotive gets 10 or more feet away from the controller.  FWIW, I am using the matching LionChief controller and not a universal controller.

Still fishing for ideas on this random noise issue if anyone has further thoughts, could this be a defective board?  Will update again on Thursday after testing on the big layout.  Curious what range I will be able to get.

Here is the update from running a few days ago on a large layout:

1) I installed the chokes from Lionel with the LionChief board 691-ENG3-A01 and controller 630-8244-900 noted above.  From an operations perspective, the system operated well for over an hour and at distances of around 50 feet. I was able to control the locomotive and sound responded too.  Bottom line is that the board appears to be capable of running the Williams dc motors. (BTW, I did add a heat sink to the LionChief bridge rectifier.)

2) On the negative side the random noise continued to occur.

I am wondering if this has anything to do with the specific board I bought.  When you search the Lionel parts site for the board I used, 691-ENG3-A01,  a number of boards show up related to various versions of LionChief locomotives and they all have the word "sounds" in the board name. The board I used does not have this designation.   Could this be a generic board that might relate to the occurrence of these random sounds?  Maybe it does not like the Santa Fe controller I am using 630-8244-900?

To button up the saga, I did not get insights on my last post on whether the different boards listed (some noting "sound" and one not) could be responsible for the random sound problem Since today is an inside with the snow day, I made one last attempt to eliminate the random sound emitted from this LionChief board.  Here are two conclusions based on the work this morning:

1) I do not have a bad LionChief board.  I switched it out and the same random sounds occurred with the second board.

2) I spent a few minutes testing the universal controller in comparison with the LionChief handheld controller.  Strangely enough, the universal controller does eliminate the random loco sounds.  The negative as many have noted is it has limited range and loses contact at about 10-15 feet away. 

Unless other ideas come up, I am officially declaring that the project of converting a Williams diesel to a LionChief is a failure, if you want sound as a part of the deal.  For the record, the current system consists of the LionChief handheld controller, LionChief control board noted above, Lionel noise filtering inductors, speakers from amazon listed above, and the original Williams DC motors. 

The disappointing part is that I was hoping this conversion would prove the concept for a next step which will not happen now: converting two powered AA Menard Santa fe diesels to run in a lash up using one LionChief controller. 

Hokie 71 - Thanks for posting this and thanks for the update!

I have been buying 1990-2007 vintage locos (Weaver, Williams, K-Line) about 1/2 with sound, most conventional, some early TMCC.  I don't have a layout yet, just an O72 test oval and a 1955 Vintage KW.

I have been considering doing this as an inexpensive, easy way to upgrade, without tying into a Control System.  This has definitely given me insight into taking this approach!  Thanks again.

I wonder if the limited range of the Universal Remote is potentially related to battery issues?  Might be worth a try with fresh batteries or better quality batteries since that solved the sound problem.

Does this happen at 8 ft and closer, or 8 ft and farther?

I believe Vernon has done several of these LC conversions without issues, there must be something odd about this particular install.

I've done a few and ran into range problems, and most of the time- especially on early RF only Lionchief, the factory matching OEM remote works best. It's odd to have this problem of random noises, and 2 boards doing it sort of points at something specific in that sound set programming.

On one hand, it's cheap right? I mean think about it, Lionchief RF style early ones are $45. If you wait and get at the half off parts sale, that's $22.50 and $10 shipping.

You cannot touch a typical reverse board for that kind of money, let alone have remote control and sounds. At the same time- this is a no support, no help situation from Lionel as you are using their board in a way they never intended.

Another thought, are you wiring the motors in series or parallel in this transplant into a Williams? I would recommend series, to draw less current. I'm just wondering if that is not the root cause here- drawing so much current, the board takes it, but the power supply filtering for the logic is getting some noise and dropouts causing the problem? I'm just saying, there are limits, these boards are not meant to handle huge currents, and while the board is not burning up, that also doesn't mean it's not being stressed in this usage.

I mostly used them in single motor applications, or RMT BEEP or BEEF installs. Also, they pair well into MTH chassis because MTH motors and trucks are geared better and more efficient than Williams IMO.

@Landsteiner posted:

I wonder if the limited range of the Universal Remote is potentially related to battery issues?  Might be worth a try with fresh batteries or better quality batteries since that solved the sound problem.

Good thought, just to be sure I put new batteries in both the universal and lionchief remotes- same results

@rplst8 posted:

Does this happen at 8 ft and closer, or 8 ft and farther?

8 feet and farther.  When it is on the far wall (about 12 direct feet from where I am sitting) it is repetitive random if that makes sense. On the far loop it typically starts where you see it going into the first curve.  It has only occurred once on the track near me.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I believe Vernon has done several of these LC conversions without issues, there must be something odd about this particular install.

Yes, Vernon has been a super advisor on this.

I loop  back to the fact that maybe I have a generic board that for some reason does not play well with this controller- I have the one with the arrow and question mark.  the only other thing I have not tried is a new lionchief controller at this point.  However, if it was randomly transmitting noise commands, why would it happen at a certain distance... Puzzling!  As one more thought, I have the board mounted vertically - no idea if that can make a difference?

@hokie71 posted:

Good thought, just to be sure I put new batteries in both the universal and lionchief remotes- same results

8 feet and farther.  When it is on the far wall (about 12 direct feet from where I am sitting) it is repetitive random if that makes sense. On the far loop it typically starts where you see it going into the first curve.  It has only occurred once on the track near me.

Yes, Vernon has been a super advisor on this.

I loop  back to the fact that maybe I have a generic board that for some reason does not play well with this controller- I have the one with the arrow and question mark.  the only other thing I have not tried is a new lionchief controller at this point.  However, if it was randomly transmitting noise commands, why would it happen at a certain distance... Puzzling!  As one more thought, I have the board mounted vertically - no idea if that can make a difference?

I honestly have no idea on the boards since lionel is not very descriptive and again, using a board like we are and asking support, I would not expect a good answer.

I don't think board orientation matters hugely and I've mounted them all kinds of ways. It's microwave- so it bounces no matter what. Heck, Lionel jams these boards inside a diecast boiler shell with only the bottom open and they STILL work. Practically a Faraday cage at other frequencies- but at 2.4Ghz just not a standard protocol.

Again, I've used the very board you are using and do not remember having issues other range problems- caused by not using the chokes. Sometimes you may not need them, other times a must.

Thanks, Vernon was responding as I was typing.  I did wire the motors in series and have the inductors on the two power leads so to speak.  The price is definitely right and I did get the boards at the fall 50% sale.

Good thoughts on the load of the motors.  Last week when I ran it at the big layout in Richmond for an hour with 6 pieces of rolling stock as a smoke test,  I could not feel any heat on the shell then.  When I run it at home and can pop off the shell, the heat sink on the rectifier does not feel warm after 15 mintues. 

BTW, A River city 3 railers friend said he liked the random sounds so I may have a new Lionel feature here?

This is a curious puzzle indeed.

One other difference I noted is the part number.

This one is ENG3 the rest are LNCF. Could this be some sort of engineering board that slipped into their parts inventory? Or maybe it needs some sort of programming before use? Maybe the “random” sounds are signal strength indicators?