Copper vs. Copper Clad

Jim Harrington posted:

Going to buy bulk 16 gauge red/black speaker/zip cord to wire a new layout.  

I know copper is a better conductor than aluminum, but will there be any difference using copper clad aluminum vs. copper for DCS track power/signal?

Thanks

Jim

Not being an Electrical Engineer, I STILL would NOT have anything to do with any aluminum wire where any amount of current is involved.

Odd that you would say that since the 200 A (or larger) feed to your house is almost certainly aluminum wire.  Most large appliances and heavy current items in your home are also wired with aluminum wire.

That being said, I think copper coated aluminum wire is junk!

Personally, I don't think the wiring on your layout is the place to save money. Get the all copper wire!! I think you will be happy you did.

OGR has very nice wire, #14 and #16 and it's great for DCS systems.

General rule is that Aluminum conductor that carries the same current as copper is two (2) sizes larger.

Example  #14 ga copper = #12 ga aluminum or copper clad aluminum.  General house/home wiring, you would seldom see Aluminum conductor under #6 in size, most often used for electric range/dryer/smaller AC.  Heat pumps and electric furnaces you often would see larger aluminum conductor.

You would also find that Aluminum conductor is terminated with oxide inhibitors, ( a grease/ paste), and in many cases compression connectors designed for Aluminum termination are used.  

Interesting to note that you will find Aluminum stranded wire that has no noticeable voids between the strands.  A solid equivalent with stranded flexibility.  Each conductor is more of a trapezoid shape. 

The last two years has seen a dramatic increase in copper with scrap copper well over $2/pound.

Copper clad isn't much better than aluminum.  Copper is way better.  My whole house was al. when we bought it but it is ALL copper

Ken M

"General rule is that Aluminum conductor that carries the same current as copper is two (2) sizes larger."

No, ONE (1) size larger.  You're correct that it is TWO (2) numbers larger. Since wires are measured in even numbers (in these applications) each SIZE is two NUMBERS bigger.

So, as an example, a #12 AL is rated the same as a #14 CU.  There is no such thing as a #13 wire, so the next bigger SIZE is a #12.

Ken M posted:

Copper clad isn't much better than aluminum.  Copper is way better.  My whole house was al. when we bought it but it is ALL copper

I don't see any problem with properly installed aluminum wire for large appliances.  It costs a LOT of extra money to wire a large house with all copper vs aluminum and copper.  I see aluminum wire for both ovens, dryer, all three heatpumps, and of course the incoming 400A feed.  I can't even imagine how much more expensive all that would have been in pure copper wire!

You can buy #13 wire. Special order and expensive. I have also seen #13 & 1/2. Special for transformers in military applications.

Well, having been in the diesel locomotive field since 1962, I have a huge dislike for aluminum wire and/or cable. Early GE diesel were built with aluminum labeling and the resulting fires and serious melt-downs were truly unbelievable. 

HW, early houses had the same issues in the 60's.  However, that wasn't the fault of the aluminum wiring, it was the stupidity of the people installing it without the proper termination.  Once connectors and switches/outlets/breakers that were compatible with aluminum wire were introduced, those issues were a thing of the past.  It would be a rare house today that doesn't have some aluminum wiring, and it's perfectly safe when used properly.  Aluminum wire is different than copper, on that we can agree.  Aluminum wiring also requires different considerations than copper wire.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

HW, early houses had the same issues in the 60's.  However, that wasn't the fault of the aluminum wiring, it was the stupidity of the people installing it without the proper termination.  Once connectors and switches/outlets/breakers that were compatible with aluminum wire were introduced, those issues were a thing of the past.  It would be a rare house today that doesn't have some aluminum wiring, and it's perfectly safe when used properly.  Aluminum wire is different than copper, on that we can agree.  Aluminum wiring also requires different considerations than copper wire.

Proper installation aside, it was future repairs, done by unlicensed electricians, with the unwitting potential to cause aluminum resistors, that prompted our government to outlaw household aluminum wiring long ago.  But of course, nowadays, all house construction in Ontario is built above code with the finest of materials by the best craftsmen, so aluminum wiring could make a comeback....riiiiiight!

Bruce

AL wiring was used in 110/120v circuits in American houses built in the late '60s through the early '70s primarily due to copper shortages (or price increases)  because of the conflict in Vietnam.  In many (maybe most) houses, AL was used only in the plug circuits and not in the switch circuits.  Not sure why ... but actually happened.

There are only three ways to safely modify AL wiring in a residence:

1.  Remove completely and replace the AL with CU.  Expensive - and destructive to house walls.  This is the most safe of the three methods.

2.  Power crimp a CU pig-tail at every outlet and switch that has AL service.  Job specific crimpers are made for this purpose.  Typical cost = up to $20/outlet.

3.  Replace all outlets or switches with AL-rated fixtures.

AL is simply not safe in a residence unless modified since, in most cases, the original plugs and/or switches were not wired with the correct fixtures.

Having said that, I'm installing appropriately sized CU clad AL wiring for outdoor speakers.  Low demand.  :-)  

On my new layout, I'll use that same type of wire for intermittently used accessories.  Current plan, anyway.

BTW, in the U.S. "future repairs" as stated above to AL wiring was not the issue ... the issue was in the initial installation.

My house is copper clad aluminum wire.  Typically #10 wire instead of #12.  I am lucky since most all other houses in my block are solid aluminum.  Been here 36 years and I have pigtails or greased.  There has not been any problems so far.  But if I ever buy another house it would have to be pure copper wire.  The #10 copper clad is very stiff and hard to work with.  The stove and a.c., dishwasher  washer and dryer are aluminum wire.

For my layout and all else I use solid copper. 

Also note that switch/receptacle replacement, on a circuit done with Aluminum wire, should be done with devices that are Aluminum rated, CO/ALR.   Standard off the shelf devices  are not Aluminum rated.  An electrical supplier may have to order the Aluminum rated devices. Split bolts and other connective devices also need to be Aluminum rated.

Connections/Splices of Aluminum to Copper are also subject to reactive deterioration.  Split bolt connections, designed for a Copper/Aluminum termination, will have a plated spacer, to be installed between the two dissimilar metal conductors. 

My parents built a new home in 1970 wired with aluminum, and as time passed, the screws on the receptacles that were used daily would work loose and smoke. Aluminum must expand and contract more then copper for this to happen. This also happened with the oven and started to burn the wood kitchen cabinet it was housed in. Thank God my mom has a good nose or they would have lost the house. They've been pulling copper through the walls to replace it ,a little at a time, as they can afford.  

So, forgetting houses and returning to trains, is the consensus that pure copper wire (vs. copper-clad aluminum) the preferred for layout applications?

Steven J. Serenska

Yep, copper all the way for your trains.

Also note that switch/receptacle replacement, on a circuit done with Aluminum wire, should be done with devices that are Aluminum rated, CO/ALR.   Standard off the shelf devices  are not Aluminum rated.  An electrical supplier may have to order the Aluminum rated devices. Split bolts and other connective devices also need to be Aluminum rated.

Connections/Splices of Aluminum to Copper are also subject to reactive deterioration.  Split bolt connections, designed for a Copper/Aluminum termination, will have a plated spacer, to be installed between the two dissimilar metal conductors.

When I needed a few devices for a branch circuit that was run with aluminum wire, I found that the selection of CO/ALR pieces at the local big box home center was very limited and they were considerably more expensive. (Of course I purchased them)

On another occasion, I wanted my contractor to use specification grade outlets on a project at my house. I skipped the home centers, and went to one of the local electrical supply houses.

Well CCA Ethernet cables are proven to have huge data packet losses compared to using all copper cables. Since DCS is basically a big network I'd say stick with all copper wire.

https://www.computercablestore...n-do-to-your-network