I have a Wabash Legacy engine that has opening coupler(s), front and rear, after about 5 laps around the layout. This is the only unit having this problem out of both Lionel Legacy and TMCC engines. I checked with my local Lionel repair person and was told about the cap to put across the wires. No luck and upon further reading found that fix was directed towards TMCC locos specifically. I have yet to rule out a mechanical problem, I do have two new couplers on hand from Lionel. Does this seem as though it would be a mechanical problem and what are the odds that both couplers would exhibit these problems on one engine?
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Your repair person gave you bad information. The cap across the wires is to be done on TMCC only. Not Legacy. Both seems a bit strange. I know you did all your resets. What is your product number?
I would say it is mechanical. I have a GP9 that does the same thing. 3-5 laps and the rear coupler uncouples. I looked at the mechanism that latches the coupler and it is not centered properly to stay latched. Mine is a TMCC engine but The couplers are probably the same design. I can unlatch mine by pulling and pushing on the coupler and it will unlatch. Replace the couplers and your problem should be solved.
Riverrailfan, I agree with you. If replacement couplers are handy, do the job and see what you have. Some of the trucks that have the coupler wires wound through the trucks are a pain.
Usually, a very small flat screwdriver will allow you to remove the pins from the Lionel connectors. I've never had an extraction tool for these, and I've taken a ton of them apart.
I used to push the metal barb in to remove the pin, but a video by one of the Forumites on the 765 showed just lifting the plastic tab it rests against. Much easier, eh?
I use a dental pick. Works great. Anything will do it.
Chuck, that's what I'm talking about. lift the plastic tab with the blade, and the pin pops right out. The bonus is you don't damage the socket and you can use it again.
Ok, here's the poop...
The coupler let loose after 7 laps, it went slightly longer, but still failed. It would appear that I have two defective couplers, so... I shall make an attempt per the advice above to change out to my new couplers on hand. Thanks for all your advice and attention. Crossing fingers/toes that new couplers will achieve desired results.
Edit... I forgot to mention that this was the result of running the engine with the coupler disconnected from the board/system.
Can we get a part number For the cap?
Drew, do NOT use a cap across the Legacy couplers, they use DC to fire the couplers and not AC like the TMCC boards.
Is that regulated dc? Fired by a transistor or fet? How is the coupler coil arranged? Source, coil, fet, and common?
Sorry, sounds pushy when I read what I wrote. Any info is appreciated.
I suspect it's regulated, but I don't really know. Jon Z. chimed in some time back and stated that it was operated with DC and a capacitor would damage the Legacy electronics. I take him at his word, so no caps across Legacy couplers.
Note that this probably doesn't apply to the early Legacy with the R4LC, those are still AC outputs. I'm guessing the newer Legacy package is the one that uses DC.
I thought some of these couplers were fixed by removing, stretching, and then replacing the internal spring.
The springs aren't holding enough pressure on the latch mechanism.
I am having the same problem with some of my Legacy engines. Especially my N&W Heritage ES44.
I've had better luck taking them apart and smoothing the latching surfaces. Boxcar Bill suggested this some time back, and it works wonders. Another bonus of the smoothing routine is that the couplers latch with much less pressure, so you don't have to have a controlled crash into the rolling stock to couple up.
Yep, I am also having the random coupler opening on my latest Legacy diesel, front and rear couplers. Lionel must have purchased some bad couplers from their supplier.
Things to try, and a way to help on some locos:
1) Remove the electro-coupler from the electronics by unplugging it, does it still let go? If so, it is a mechanical issue.
2) On locos with the R4LC, try a cap across the coupler. All legacy loco have the cap across the coupler on the motherboard; but another can't hurt. Do NOT use a cap on the RCMC board, it is DC and it is extremely unlikely that it could mis-fire. There are no TRIACS on the RCMC, all outputs are MOSFET control.
3) On stubborn locos, especially with the TRIACS, if the mis-fire is from the R4LC, I suggest first replacing the R4LC. If this fails, then 99% of the time you can fix the misfires by electrically bonding the trucks of the loco together (diesels). I run a 24 gauge wire from a screw terminal on one truck, through the inside of the loco, and tie it to a screw terminal on the other truck. Just a truck-to-truck connection, no other internal connections to this wire. It works!
That's new info about the trucks Jon, thanks. That's one I hadn't heard about before. Would this apply to the trucks on steamer tenders as well?
That's new info about the trucks Jon, thanks. That's one I hadn't heard about before. Would this apply to the trucks on steamer tenders as well?
Not on Lionel steamers. The tender and loco are normally isolated electrically and only coupled via the drawbar optics.
Good point on wireless drawbar steamers, I was thinking along the lines of TMCC models with a tether.
Well, the noise on the truck wheel pickup? could turn on the triac by injecting a dv/dt into the triac gate...so I guess that's less likely if it has to make it all the way to the engine anyway. Certainly not thru a wireless tether, maybe thru a wire.
Not sure how a fet gets turned on...still a noise spike injected thru the fet drain or source into the gate? Maybe gate source capacitance. Anyway keeping the truck frame electrically quiet seems to be the solution. Is that it?
Can we get a part number For the cap?
Lionel customer service part #691-CNP1-000.
There's no reason to spend the outrageous shipping for a simple electronic component you can get anywhere. You can get the same capacitor from Digikey for far less.
Not only is the cap cheaper, but shipping from Digikey on a few of these will only be a couple of bucks.
There's no reason to spend the outrageous shipping for a simple electronic component you can get anywhere. You can get the same capacitor from Digikey for far less.
Not only is the cap cheaper, but shipping from Digikey on a few of these will only be a couple of bucks.
Someone asked, I knew the answer I got mine from a local radio supply store, $1.20 each. FWIW.
Things to try, and a way to help on some locos:
1) Remove the electro-coupler from the electronics by unplugging it, does it still let go? If so, it is a mechanical issue.
2) On locos with the R4LC, try a cap across the coupler. All legacy loco have the cap across the coupler on the motherboard; but another can't hurt. Do NOT use a cap on the RCMC board, it is DC and it is extremely unlikely that it could mis-fire. There are no TRIACS on the RCMC, all outputs are MOSFET control.
3) On stubborn locos, especially with the TRIACS, if the mis-fire is from the R4LC, I suggest first replacing the R4LC. If this fails, then 99% of the time you can fix the misfires by electrically bonding the trucks of the loco together (diesels). I run a 24 gauge wire from a screw terminal on one truck, through the inside of the loco, and tie it to a screw terminal on the other truck. Just a truck-to-truck connection, no other internal connections to this wire. It works!
From past experience I found for me its an electrical issue. When I run my GP 30 or GP35 alone with freight cars no coupler problems.
But, when I run the GP30 & GP35 together in a lashup, the rear coupler of the second engine will occasionally open at different spots on the track. I've had that happen with other engines as well.
Joe
That makes sense Cheryl, but I do like my answer better.
From past experience I found for me its an electrical issue. When I run my GP 30 or GP35 alone with freight cars no coupler problems.
But, when I run the GP30 & GP35 together in a lashup, the rear coupler of the second engine will occasionally open at different spots on the track. I've had that happen with other engines as well.
Joe
Many of those are early Legacy models with the R4LC, so they might benefit from the capacitor. You might also try Jon Z.'s fix of running a ground wire between the power trucks.
I had a similar problem of opening couplers. a bad roller spring on a passenger car would let the roller bounce up and arc on the truck. this arc caused the open command for the coupler on the engine.
If it has a R2LC or R4LC it can use the cap if the problem is electrical.
Bill
There's no reason to spend the outrageous shipping for a simple electronic component you can get anywhere. You can get the same capacitor from Digikey for far less.
Not only is the cap cheaper, but shipping from Digikey on a few of these will only be a couple of bucks.
Well...I don't think I would use the work outrageous. Just checking, if you ordered 5 of them, Digikey charges 1.40 and 4.99 priority shipping and Lionel charges 2.50 and 9.00 priority. Now you can get 1st Class for about 3.28 from Digikey. 1st Class may not be so attractive if you live on the West coast. But also, I'm comparing apples to apples. So that's double...and you get to support your favorite train company . I generally make up a shopping list and order a dozen items just to feel frugal.
Priority shipping? I ship them USPS First Class from Digikey, and the shipping is about $3.
Here's my last shipment, some triacs and contacts for MTH tether connectors. First class mail typically goes air and you'd get it in a couple of days.
Important point, Lionel doesn't offer a cheaper shipping option. Since I'm not in that big a hurry as a rule, I can wait a couple of days. Gee, I order parts from MTH, so how much of a hurry could I possibly be in?
Attachments
Cheryl,
Thanks for starting this thread, just before I came up to the log cabin, I was moving the American Flyer Mini Crane on front coupler of the Legacy Shay, I uncoupled the Mini Crane and now the front coupler on the Shay engine is stuck open and will not close, I will need to take a good look at this when I return to Churchill, some of the advise the guys gave here, might just help me.
PCRR/Dave
OK, this is becoming a real challenge I tried changing out to a new coupler, that went well, actually. GRJ's advice for lifting the connector tabs was spot on, thank you John. That was the good news...
The bad news is... it is still failing, it takes longer, 15 laps this time, but never the less, it still left the cars behind.
Now... after reading through this again, I get the impression that the truck to truck tie up is not a solution to this engine. (wasn't looking forward to trying that anyway) So for now I've packed 'er back up in the box, and I'm sulking.
I've got another engine, MTH, that just got the same treatment, as it won't behave either, but we won't go into that here .
Any other ideas?
Cheryl,
Thanks for starting this thread, just before I came up to the log cabin, I was moving the American Flyer Mini Crane on front coupler of the Legacy Shay, I uncoupled the Mini Crane and now the front coupler on the Shay engine is stuck open and will not close, I will need to take a good look at this when I return to Churchill, some of the advise the guys gave here, might just help me.
PCRR/Dave
You're welcome
Did you try tying the two trucks together with a wire like Jon Z. suggested? That locomotive has the new RCMC Legacy electronics, so capacitors aren't going to fix anything.
Did you try tying the two trucks together with a wire like Jon Z. suggested? That locomotive has the new RCMC Legacy electronics, so capacitors aren't going to fix anything.
No, I didn't as I got the impression that wouldn't work on this engine. Based on the model number of this puppy, can you tell me what boards are which and whether this has triacs, mosfets or whatever, as, at this point I'M VERY CONFUSED, aaghhhhh.
OK, I've reread what you said, and what Jon said and looked at the parts list for my loco.
I thought what Jon was saying is that the "...electrically bonding of the trucks..." applied to engines with the R4LC boards.
If I'm understanding my engines parts list and you, my engine does not have that board.
Eh?
OK, I've reread what you said, and what Jon said and looked at the parts list for my loco.
I thought what Jon was saying is that the "...electrically bonding of the trucks..." applied to engines with the R4LC boards.
If I'm understanding my engines parts list and you, my engine does not have that board.
Eh?
Do it anyway.