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One thing to stress!  If you are looking for DCS components, they are listed IN THIS new Atlas  CATALOG!!!!!!

I have been wanting to get DCS, but TIU's were about impossible to find.  One of Atlas's new offerings is the WI-FI enabled TIU!  It lists a tether to connect to the DCS handheld remote.  Since I am not yet a DCS guy, I don't know how easy it will be to integrate the old handheld into the new wireless TIU.  So some dealer will get my order for one of the new wireless TIU's, and possibly the new AIU, also listed in the catalog.  Other goodies are there as well.

Don - Happy Railroading

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I wouldn't hold your breath for the new TIU.  With the parts shortages and delays in manufacturing, it will likely be some time before we see this unit.

Hey John, but at least Atlas made it explicitly clear that when it does arrive, you can tether a remote to it. In fact, they noted it twice -



WTIU WIFI TRACK INTERFACE UNIT FEATURES
All-In-One Command Control Transmitter
Built-In WiFi
4-Channel Output With Fixed and Variable
Voltage Ports

4-Channel AC or DC Power Input Ports
Auxiliary Power Input Port
USB Input Port
RS-232 Serial Port
Ethernet Input Port
LED Activation Lights
DCS Handheld Remote Tether Input
AIU Accessory Interface Unit Input
(2) Fixed AC and DC Voltage Output For Com-
mand Control Tracks

(2) Variable AC and DC Voltage Outputs For
Conventional and Command Control Tracks

Wireless WiFi Control (iOS or Android) Using
DCS App

Tethered Layout Control Using DCS Handheld
Remote



http://download.atlasrr.com/11...OV2021OMSRPOnly1.pdf

Which is a pointless feature, at least to me.  Having my "remote" wired to the TIU means it's really not a "remote" at all!

Maybe for you, but not for me and others with smaller layouts. More importantly, we can take a little more comfort in the fact that the remote connection has not been abandoned like you've surmised on prior posts -  https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...4#157688390938246754

I'm with John on this one!  I bought a wireless DCS remote at York from Stockyard Express.  If I can't have the same freedom as I do with Legacy, I see this as a major detraction.  I mentioned I will be new to DCS.  I have read of many troubles folks have had with implementation of DCS.  Having to cut your layout tracks to employ a star wiring system isn't really a star wiring system.  I believe the best way is to follow the instruction manual!

Regardless, I am happy for those who would like to purchase Proto II and up engines, and will be able to remote control them, with a valid source for the necessary components.  I still think it is hard to beat the one wire connection Legacy/TMCC gives one to remote control their layout.

Maybe for you, but not for me and others with smaller layouts. More importantly, we can take a little more comfort in the fact that the remote connection has not been abandoned like you've surmised on prior posts -  https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...4#157688390938246754

I don't take comfort in that at all.  It's not the size of the layout, it's having that cord getting tangled up in visitors legs, etc.  Also, if your TIU is not ready accessible, and mine certainly isn't, having the cord running from the back of the layout to the operating position is a PITA.  I realize that some people will be perfectly happy with the tethered remote, but try to remember a couple of items...

  • This is a giant step backwards from having a true wireless remote.
  • You can only have ONE remote connected, with the existing TIU I routinely have three or four connected.

I don't take comfort in that at all.  It's not the size of the layout, it's having that cord getting tangled up in visitors legs, etc.  Also, if your TIU is not ready accessible, and mine certainly isn't, having the cord running from the back of the layout to the operating position is a PITA.  I realize that some people will be perfectly happy with the tethered remote, but try to remember a couple of items...

  • This is a giant step backwards from having a true wireless remote.
  • You can only have ONE remote connected, with the existing TIU I routinely have three or four connected.

To each his own, John.  I sit in one place in front of my control panel and operate everything.  No problem for me operating a remote with a 10 foot phone cord tethered to it.  In fact, I’m looking forward to having the ability to use my smart phone along with a tethered remote on the new tiu I have on order.  I get you and others, particularly those with larger layouts,  may feel otherwise, but at least now we know they will include the option to tether that you were previously not optimistic about.  Very comforting to me to know that this speculation was incorrect because I would have cancelled my WTIU if true..

I hope at some point they create a box that can be connected to this new tiu that can receive the signal from the remotes. I am still miffed / upset that they eliminated the ability of the tiu to receive signals from the remote.

Fortunately, I have a small stockpile of old t.i.u.s. and remotes. And yes I'm with those who are saying it's totally worthless: it does most of us no good if you have to be physically wired to the tiu. My layout surrounds a basement with multiple operators. 

I had three people here today, and we were all running different locomotives.  I was actually running two using the Legacy CAB2 and the DCS Remote.  All three of my DCS remotes were in use, that option vanishes with the "new and improved" TIU.  I'm glad I have five DCS remotes and TIU's, I'll try to stretch them until I don't need to run trains anymore.

@donhradio posted:

One thing to stress!  If you are looking for DCS components, they are listed IN THIS new Atlas  CATALOG!!!!!!

I have been wanting to get DCS, but TIU's were about impossible to find.  One of Atlas's new offerings is the WI-FI enabled TIU!  It lists a tether to connect to the DCS handheld remote.  Since I am not yet a DCS guy, I don't know how easy it will be to integrate the old handheld into the new wireless TIU.  So some dealer will get my order for one of the new wireless TIU's, and possibly the new AIU, also listed in the catalog.  Other goodies are there as well.

Don - Happy Railroading

Another perspective:  since we bought the WIU (now integrated into the TIU from what I understand) and installed the DCS app on an Amazon Kindle Fire, the DCS remote remains largely unused.  The app on a phone (even a big phone like my iPhone pro) is not as nice but on a nice tablet in high def it is really nice.

I am glad to have the remote as a back up when the kids won’t let me use the tablet because they are using it to run the trains!

@AGHRMatt posted:

I guess it's a pretty safe bet the WiFi App will still be around. Hopefully there will be some upgrades. For testing purposes, I wish the DCS explorer supported the upgraded version of the App.

I was checking the DCS app on my phone last night and at some point during an update, they added an option on the Setting to connect to a DCS Explorer. Don't know when that capability came into the App. I'll have to dig my Explorer out of the moving boxes to set up a test track.

@AGHRMatt posted:

I was checking the DCS app on my phone last night and at some point during an update, they added an option on the Setting to connect to a DCS Explorer. Don't know when that capability came into the App. I'll have to dig my Explorer out of the moving boxes to set up a test track.

At least as long as the DCS Explorer has been out.

I have a remote and a TIU and a backup remote and backup TIU.  Now I am casually looking for a WIU so that I can use my iphone or visitors can use their iphones or I can revert to my iphone if my remotes die or hit the floor and blow up.  This technology and the discontinued versions and changes that eliminate the remotes make me both bat sh## crazy and bordeline OCD   Any toy train shrinks out there?

I saw a club using what I assume are multiple handhelds (phones) to allow multiple train "drivers". I have the old TIU and the WIFI I/F. That provides access for multiple users.

One question...... Could I use cheap burn phones as WIFI based train controllers? I don't remember seeing a discussion of this.

It depends.  I know that Lionel's LC+ application is flaky on older phones, but the MTH WiFIi app is working on those same two phones.  I suspect there will be working and non-working phone models for either the MTH or Lionel applications.  So much for universal compatibility...

@john n posted:

Have  yet  to  see  this discussed:  Why  not use  your "old"  TIU and  attach  it  to  the  new    wifi  TIU  output so  the  hand  held  signal can  still  work  In  other  word can  use  both  methods  of  c

control  as  desired ?  Any  foreseeable  problems ?

I was told you cannot "Super TIU" the new WiFi only units. Anyone know if this is true?

Which is a pointless feature, at least to me.  Having my "remote" wired to the TIU means it's really not a "remote" at all!

I think DCS is a waist, at this point the standard is TMCC and with all of the improvements and true remote control such as TMCC switches. I had both and never looked back. I keep my DCS for a few engines that are 'mikes" until the warranty expires than poof TMCC upgrade.

I had three people here today, and we were all running different locomotives.  I was actually running two using the Legacy CAB2 and the DCS Remote.  All three of my DCS remotes were in use, that option vanishes with the "new and improved" TIU.  I'm glad I have five DCS remotes and TIU's, I'll try to stretch them until I don't need to run trains anymore.

I guess I've been out of touch since MTH closed so why does the wireless remote now require to be tethered to the new combined TIU?   I have the old TIU and the discontinued  separate sale WIU .  My remote works perfectly along with the app on my tablet.

Last edited by JC642
@JC642 posted:

I guess I've been out of touch since MTH closed so why does the wireless remote now require to be tethered to the new combined TIU?   I have the old TIU and the discontinued  WIU .  My remote works perfectly along with the app on my tablet.

The wireless remote is no longer supported in wireless mode with the new TIU that MTH will be releasing.  You can still tether it to the new TIU (big deal).  You are limited to using smart evices like your phone and tablet for running your trains.

@JC642 posted:

Thanks John,   I didnt know the separate sale WIU was discontinued.

They're pretty much going with their "new" TIU with wireless capability as the whole enchilada for DCS operation.  You get to supply your own remote in the form of your phone.  There is the "talk" of someday doing a new remote, but I wouldn't hold your breath.  I suspect I'll be long gone before a new remote shows up.

When Lionel released their latest catalog, Trainworld had a youtube live online meeting.  During the Q & A at the end, someone asked if Lionel would be continuing to make remotes. Ryan from Lionel said it was not the future because all electronics manufacturers are making smart devices that work with phones.  He said even if Lionel wants to do remote control devices, it is getting more expensive because phones and apps are where EVERYTHING is headed.   So, let us enjoy our tetherless remotes as long as we can

This post is just a little bit premature but I suppose it will help extinguish some of the gas lighting going on here.

Below is a little project I started on just before Christmas and with the help of an engineer at work as well as "borrowing" a prototype project board from a customer at work, we believe it is possible to use one or more DCS remote(s) with the new WTIU.

We are running on the assumption that the Remote Input port on the WTIU will work the same as it does on the current TIU.  I don't see why it wouldn't.

We removed the 900 MHz transceiver from a REV. L TIU to ensure the remote couldn't communicate directly and communications had to run through our apparatus into the Remote Input port.  I've had to hide the "Magic" inside of a temporary black project box at the request of the customer who loaned it to us. The radio board you see on top is a Panstick that is used as the new transceiver for the communications to and from the DCS Remotes. So far we have been able to interface 3 DCS remotes at the same time to this single TIU through the Remote Input port. I would have tried more but that was all the more remotes I have available to me right now.  We are pretty sure that Super TIU mode works as we linked this setup with another regular TIU in Super mode without issue.

20220319_203126

Not sure where this project will ultimately lead as it started out only as a proof of concept. When I get my hands on a WTIU I will test it again to verify the concept.

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Last edited by H1000

I’ve been wanting to make a thread on this- but a nice compromise would be a Mfi(made for iPhone) controller. Commonly used for gaming on iPhones, but they aren’t dedicated to a single game. That is, they’re capable of use with multiple apps as long as the app is MFI compatible .

lets say Lionel would make the Base3 MFI/other smart phone controller compatible. It still leaves an issue of if the MFI device would have to be configured in a way that it’s physical attributes properly align with the App function

CF1379B7-720B-4457-9CA3-BF17526199C3245E56AB-E809-43A5-9290-C89EDE91DEA3

A gaming Mifi controller usually has a a joy stick and/or 4 button directional pad, 4 buttons on the “front” that control functions of the app experience, and 3 or so other buttons that are for the devices connection and/or power.
It’s entirely possible a current mifi controller could  work with the Cab3 app as all it requires is selection of features. the Mifi device could be made by Lionel or a 3rd party and would certainly be cheaper than a remote in the long term

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Last edited by StevefromPA
@StevefromPA posted:

I’ve been wanting to make a thread on this- but a nice compromise would be a MiFi controller. Commonly used for gaming on iPhones, they aren’t dedicated to a single game. The APP has to be mifi compatible, so Lionel would have to do that. A mifi device would also have to be configured in a way that it’s physical attributes properly align with the App functions. A gaming Mifi controller usually has a a joy stick or 4 button directional pad, 4 buttons on the “front” and sometimes two on the rear. It’s entirely possible a current mifi controller could  work with the Cab3 app as all it requires is selection of features. the Mifi device could be made by Lionel or a 3rd party and would certainly be cheaper than a remote in the long term

You mean something like this:



@IRON HORSE posted:

When Lionel released their latest catalog, Trainworld had a youtube live online meeting.  During the Q & A at the end, someone asked if Lionel would be continuing to make remotes. Ryan from Lionel said it was not the future because all electronics manufacturers are making smart devices that work with phones.  He said even if Lionel wants to do remote control devices, it is getting more expensive because phones and apps are where EVERYTHING is headed.   So, let us enjoy our tetherless remotes as long as we can

Lionel is still manufacturing and selling the CAB-1L remote as well as the orange Lionchief Universal Remote

Lionel is still manufacturing and selling the CAB-1L remote as well as the orange Lionchief Universal Remote

Yes, great.  But what does that have to do with what happens next?  I'm only saying what was said by Lionel.  I think the question was asked in response to their new hellgate bridge-shaped base. If I am misquoting, someone please correct me.  The point Ryan, I think, was making is that the internet of things is app driven, not remote driven, nor universal remote driven.  Who would have thought 20 years ago that you could adjust your furnace remotely with your cell phone? Or run your trains?   Companies today that offered remote controls for their products in the past probably aren't thinking about how they can improve their hand-held remotes.

Maybe I'm wrong.  My current streaming tv remote sucks  -- so there is a ton of room for improvement.  It and my "smart tv" (I put that in quotes because it seems pretty dumb to me), do a terrible job of communicating. On the other hand, my phone app for my streaming tv works flawlessly when I watch tv on my phone.

Perhaps the game controllers listed here is a different approach and will change things.  I know nothing about that and don't claim to.  That would be a cool way to bring younger people into the hobby -- control your trains and gaming with the same device.

The simple question is why not continue to make the older WIU for the thousands who own the original TIU?  My WIU with a tablet works perfectly alongside the DCS remote.  It's a no brainer, I choose whether I want to run trains with the remote or tablet.  If the remote breaks in the future  with no replacement available, I still have the tablet.

Last edited by JC642
@H1000 posted:

This post is just a little bit premature but I suppose it will help extinguish some of the gas lighting going on here.

I'm not sure what gas lighting you refer to.  It is a fact that MTH is discontinuing the DCS remote.  It is a fact that the new TIU will not communicate with the DCS remote in wireless mode.

Months ago we were speculating right here in the forum about options.  One such option is that it should be possible to use the wired port and add on a 900mhz transceiver board to extend wireless DCS remote operation to the new upcoming MTH TIU.  From your post, apparently you have the first such prototype in captivity, certainly a positive sign.

Lionel is still manufacturing and selling the CAB-1L remote as well as the orange Lionchief Universal Remote

First off, to head off the obvious path when you're boxed in, let's dispense with the CAB3 application.  The whole premise of the discussion is one of having a physical remote with real controls, not a touch screen that you have to constantly look at to operate your trains.

As far as the CAB1L and the LC Universal Remote, neither of those options exploit many of the features of the modern Legacy locomotives.  One of the more fun features for me is the combination of the train brake and throttle to create an infinite variety of labor effects.  Also, features like the wheel slip for the Vision Line Big Boy and Challenger are not available using the CAB1L.  Any feature that uses AUX3 is also not available using the CAB1L.  All those limitations go double for the Universal Remote, with that control you can't even turn smoke on and off!

There's an old axiom in product design:  Under promise and over deliver and you'll have happy customers.

Well, Lionel has delivered the CAB2 that has all the features described, and now they want to yank it back and hand me a much less capable remote control solution.  That's over promising and under delivering, not the way to a happy customer.

@JC642 posted:

The simple question is why not continue to make the older WIU for the thousands who own the original TIU?  My WIU with a tablet works perfectly alongside the DCS remote.  It's a no brainer, I choose whether I want to run trains with the remote or tablet.  If the remote breaks in the future  with no replacement available, I still have the tablet.

I would love to see this happen. I love the DCS remote, but I also wouldn't mind adding a WIU to allow phone use.  I chose not to buy this when it was available because I always thought I could add it later.

First off, to head off the obvious path when you're boxed in, let's dispense with the CAB3 application.  The whole premise of the discussion is one of having a physical remote with real controls, not a touch screen that you have to constantly look at to operate your trains.

As far as the CAB1L and the LC Universal Remote, neither of those options exploit many of the features of the modern Legacy locomotives.  One of the more fun features for me is the combination of the train brake and throttle to create an infinite variety of labor effects.  Also, features like the wheel slip for the Vision Line Big Boy and Challenger are not available using the CAB1L.  Any feature that uses AUX3 is also not available using the CAB1L.  All those limitations go double for the Universal Remote, with that control you can't even turn smoke on and off!

There's an old axiom in product design:  Under promise and over deliver and you'll have happy customers.

Well, Lionel has delivered the CAB2 that has all the features described, and now they want to yank it back and hand me a much less capable remote control solution.  That's over promising and under delivering, not the way to a happy customer.

Well my comment was based on someone stating that "Lionel is no longer making remotes." My response is to point out that Lionel is making remotes like the CAB-1L and the Lionchief Universal remote.

Thank you for confirming that I am correct and backing me up!

@IRON HORSE posted:

Yes, great.  But what does that have to do with what happens next?  I'm only saying what was said by Lionel.  I think the question was asked in response to their new hellgate bridge-shaped base. If I am misquoting, someone please correct me.  The point Ryan, I think, was making is that the internet of things is app driven, not remote driven, nor universal remote driven.  Who would have thought 20 years ago that you could adjust your furnace remotely with your cell phone? Or run your trains?   Companies today that offered remote controls for their products in the past probably aren't thinking about how they can improve their hand-held remotes.

Maybe I'm wrong.  My current streaming tv remote sucks  -- so there is a ton of room for improvement.  It and my "smart tv" (I put that in quotes because it seems pretty dumb to me), do a terrible job of communicating. On the other hand, my phone app for my streaming tv works flawlessly when I watch tv on my phone.

Perhaps the game controllers listed here is a different approach and will change things.  I know nothing about that and don't claim to.  That would be a cool way to bring younger people into the hobby -- control your trains and gaming with the same device.

What happens next?

Option A: Run your trains with the CAB-1L and BASE-3

Option B: Run your trains with the Base-3 and app

After either Option A or B: Have fun with your trains!

Well my comment was based on someone stating that "Lionel is no longer making remotes." My response is to point out that Lionel is making remotes like the CAB-1L and the Lionchief Universal remote.

Thank you for confirming that I am correct and backing me up!

Yep, and its roughly the equivalent of an auto maker selling you a car that comes with a radio that only has a volume control knob LOL!

Eliminating the physical remote and only offering smart-phone operation is obviously where the world is going. Personally, I prefer the remote as I can feel my way around it while watching the trains (isn't that what it's about?). The universal gaming cradle is interesting but now you need two hands to operate it where the remote can be in one. How often do you find you need a hand on a train while operating the remote in the other?
Besides......if I need two hands to operate the remote, where will I put my beer?????

The test device H1000 show's, has promise. How can the mfr turn their back on the thousands of TIU owners out there and not offer an option to interface with their existing equipment.
(I know, don't say it.....they want to sell the new stuff).

Going to a wired tether is a major step backwards for sure. I'll stick with my Cab-1L and DCS remote-commander for now.

Bob

Even if Super-TIU exists with the new TIU, the remote has to communicate with the TIU that is currently controlling the tracks that the engine is on.  When it is on tracks that the new TIU is controlling, your remote would no longer see it or control it.

I was wondering for those purchasing the new TIU's if they could still "Super TIU" the new design TIU units with their phone or tablet. IIRC even the old TIU's lost the "Super" feature when you plugged the remote in to one of them.

@BobbyD posted:

I was wondering for those purchasing the new TIU's if they could still "Super TIU" the new design TIU units with their phone or tablet. IIRC even the old TIU's lost the "Super" feature when you plugged the remote in to one of them.

The super feature is contained in the remote not the tiu. When you plug a remote into a tiu with a cord, the internal transceiver is disabled on the remote not sure about the tiu but that doesn't matter with my project above because we don't use the internal transceiver on the tiu anymore.

@H1000 posted:

The super feature is contained in the remote not the tiu. When you plug a remote into a tiu with a cord, the internal transceiver is disabled on the remote not sure about the tiu but that doesn't matter with my project above because we don't use the internal transceiver on the tiu anymore.

So does the new WiFi TIU have the ability for the MTH phone/tablet "Remote" to control 3 of them in Super Mode?

@IRON HORSE posted:

I would love to see this happen. I love the DCS remote, but I also wouldn't mind adding a WIU to allow phone use.  I chose not to buy this when it was available because I always thought I could add it later.

What a deal, you're forced to trash your perfectly good DCS system and buy a replacement when the remote crashes.   Sounds to me as though the fellows at new MTH would like DCS users to know,  they're waiting.. Eventually, you'll call with your credit card.

Last edited by JC642
@JC642 posted:

What a deal, you're forced to trash your perfectly good DCS system and buy a replacement when the remote crashes.   Sounds to me as though the fellows at new MTH would like DCS users to know,  they're waiting.. Eventually, you'll call with your credit card.

Yes, agreed.  That's why it would be nice if the WIU was still available. 

In the latest OGRR runs, they talk about the technical stuff in DCS.  Would it be possible for someone to make a WIU to add to the old TIU or is the hardware/software patented?  And can it be made and sold for a reasonable cost?

I'm not sure what gas lighting you refer to.  It is a fact that MTH is discontinuing the DCS remote.  It is a fact that the new TIU will not communicate with the DCS remote in wireless mode.

John, I was referring to those who have zero interest or investment into DCS but like to pop on these threads just to stir the pot. I really wanted to post my previous project in a new thread at the 11 hour of final availability of the prototype board we used above which I think will be late April. I am holding out on a long shot that I'll get my hands on a WTIU before I have send back my customer supplied board. I really doubt that will happen.

Weather people like it or not, the days of high end remotes with custom readout screen and two-way communication to a base device like the CAB-2 and DCS Remote are pretty much done. The volume of production is too low to make them cost feasible or profitable for Lionel or MTH.  These remotes could still be built but the cost post for the customer would exceed any reasonable amount the customer is willing to pay.

"Dumb" remotes like the CAB1L & universal remote are are one-way communication, have no screens and no feedback from the base/engine they talk to. Right now they are reasonable to manufacture but I think the CAB1L days could be numbered also as not all of its electronics are off the shelf products like the Universal Remote.  In my opinion the reason the CAB1L has life right now is because of the public backlash witnessed by MTH when they announced the cancellation of their handheld remote. When the BASE3 runs it product lifecycle and Lionel announces the BASE4, do you think it will support the CAB2 & CAB1L?

@H1000 posted:

John, I was referring to those who have zero interest or investment into DCS but like to pop on these threads just to stir the pot.

Gosh, I can't imagine who you might be talking about.

@H1000 posted:

Weather people like it or not, the days of high end remotes with custom readout screen and two-way communication to a base device like the CAB-2 and DCS Remote are pretty much done. The volume of production is too low to make them cost feasible or profitable for Lionel or MTH.  These remotes could still be built but the cost post for the customer would exceed any reasonable amount the customer is willing to pay.

I don't necessarily need the remote, but I am bummed about the loss of the features ofthe CAB2 especially. Other than the touch-screen app, there is no way to access a number of the Legacy features, that's not happening with the CAB1L.  I think a remote with the train brake and real keypad buttons and a throttle knob isn't that difficult or expensive to build.

@H1000 posted:

In my opinion the reason the CAB1L has life right now is because of the public backlash witnessed by MTH when they announced the cancellation of their handheld remote. When the BASE3 runs it product lifecycle and Lionel announces the BASE4, do you think it will support the CAB2 & CAB1L?

You're probably right, MTH dropping the remote was a wake-up call, I just picked up another remote.

As for the BASE4, that's years away I expect, so I'll figure on using my Legacy Command Base and/or maybe a BASE3 for a very long time with my CAB1L and CAB2 remotes, which I also have a number of.   I may even have an old phone or two to supplement my "real" remotes.

@IRON HORSE posted:

Yes, agreed.  That's why it would be nice if the WIU was still available.

In the latest OGRR runs, they talk about the technical stuff in DCS.  Would it be possible for someone to make a WIU to add to the old TIU or is the hardware/software patented?  And can it be made and sold for a reasonable cost?

This is yet another project I have in the works. I won't release any details as I don't think MTH has announced the true death of the WIU just yet. Plus I think there could be some legal ramifications if show everyone how to circumvent the purchase of MTH hardware and building a really cheap WIU. My LHS says that they will continue to make the WIU... we'll see. But if confirmation comes from MTH that the WIU goes NLA, I believe I've developed  a way you can buy some off the shelf (probably used) hardware and build your own WIU for about $20 or so depending on the prices on ebay.

@Tom Tee posted:

The noise level of the slow demo train seems somewhat loud.  Is that audio an accurate rendering?

Just thinking what would the level of noise be with multiple trains all running at normal speeds?

It's a smaller room but the phone I recorded that video on does a wonderfully terrible job of amplifying background noise.  I could have back filled the Realtrax with foam and that makes it very quiet... something I learned after I laid the track.

It's usually pretty quiet with three consists running at what I consider "normal speed".

Last edited by H1000
@H1000 posted:

This is yet another project I have in the works. I won't release any details as I don't think MTH has announced the true death of the WIU just yet. Plus I think there could be some legal ramifications if show everyone how to circumvent the purchase of MTH hardware and building a really cheap WIU. My LHS says that they will continue to make the WIU... we'll see. But if confirmation comes from MTH that the WIU goes NLA, I believe I've developed  a way you can buy some off the shelf (probably used) hardware and build your own WIU for about $20 or so depending on the prices on ebay.

Nice.  Very reassuring.  Thanks for this note.


As for the BASE4, that's years away I expect, so I'll figure on using my Legacy Command Base and/or maybe a BASE3 for a very long time with my CAB1L and CAB2 remotes, which I also have a number of.   I may even have an old phone or two to supplement my "real" remotes.

Based on product lifecycle history of Lionel, I estimate we should see the BASE4 around 2035 or so. I'm going to guess that support for remotes that haven't been manufactured in 15 years will be dropped.

@H1000 posted:

Based on product lifecycle history of Lionel, I estimate we should see the BASE4 around 2035 or so. I'm going to guess that support for remotes that haven't been manufactured in 15 years will be dropped.

Hmm, I'll be around 90 then, I doubt I'll be up to using a smart device to run the trains, so I better keep lots of spare parts for my remotes.

@H1000 posted:

You mean something like this:



I bought that gaming controller, but could not find an app that would successfully map the MTH app's screen to it (tried several), so I gave up and returned it.  However, I lack your skills with that type of tech, so maybe you'd be willing to share details at some point?

@H1000 posted:

This is yet another project I have in the works. I won't release any details as I don't think MTH has announced the true death of the WIU just yet. Plus I think there could be some legal ramifications if show everyone how to circumvent the purchase of MTH hardware and building a really cheap WIU. My LHS says that they will continue to make the WIU... we'll see. But if confirmation comes from MTH that the WIU goes NLA, I believe I've developed  a way you can buy some off the shelf (probably used) hardware and build your own WIU for about $20 or so depending on the prices on ebay.

Looking forward to that.  Despite my lack of tech skills, I'd roll the dice on $20ish worth of parts to try it.

Hi all,

Here's a little explanation of the NEW and OLD DCS hardware.

All the TIU's and DCS remotes built to date (the "OLD" TIU's) have used a 900MHz radio.  This was current tech 20 years ago when DCS came out, but the electronics industry has since moved on.  When was the last time you could buy a 900MHz cordless phone?  The transceiver board in the OLD TIU and the DCS remote were an "off the shelf" component with an FCC certification (the expensive part) purchased from Texas Instruments.  There are so few customers left making 900MHz products that TI doesn't want to make any more transceiver boards.  Hence, no more DCS remotes or OLD TIU's.

The WIU was an add-on to the OLD TIU's that gave them a 2.4GHz radio that could use the industry standard WiFi protocols of today.  Again, the radio in the WIU was an "off the shelf" component that already comes with an FCC license.  MTH did discontinue the WIU, but not for lack of component availability.  Personally, I hope the market will twist their arms to make at least one more batch of WIU's so that anyone who wants one can get one.  The combo of an OLD TIU with a WIU is the most capable DCS setup, because it the only way to use both the DCS app and DCS remote (without a tether).

The NEW TIU has appropriately been dubbed the WTIU because it incorporates the WIU's 2.4GHz radio into the TIU.  The WTIU will no longer have the obsolete TI 900MHz transceiver board.  The only way the WTIU will have to communicate with the DCS remote is via the "REMOTE INPUT" jack.  The "REMOTE INPUT" jack was included on the OLD TIU's and has been carried over to provide some level of backwards compatibility.  I agree that a tethered remote is pretty useless out on the layout, but I'm REALLY glad they're including this feature.  I've always preferred to tether the remote to the TIU and use a small set-up track when loading or editing engines.  The fact that we can still manage our engine rosters without relying on either the 900MHz or 2.4GHz radios is a real plus IMO.

Super Mode is eliminated from the WTIU because it is no longer necessary.  The purpose of Super Mode was directly linked to the use of the 900MHz radio.  It was used to filter which commands were intended for which TIU's.  Now that the WTIU uses 2.4GHz WiFi (or can be hard wired via ethernet cables) that filtering capability is built-in.  Each WTIU will have a unique IP address, which allows for the same command filtering to be handled by the DCS app.  This not only eliminates the need for Super Mode, but it also eliminates the limitation of DCS to only 250 switches and 250 accessories.  Since the DCS app keeps track of WIU's and WTIU's by IP address, you can have more than 5 WIU/TIU combos or WTIU's, and each can have up to 5 AIU's.

As I mentioned before, I think the OLD TIU with a WIU is currently the most desirable hardware package because it lets you use both the DCS remote (without tether) and the DCS app.  However, I am very interested to get my hands on a WTIU when they come out.  There have always been some weaknesses in the serial link between the TIU and WIU that make undetected command errors possible.  When running from the app or DCS remote this generally isn't a big deal.  If a command got corrupted and therefore ignored, you simply pressed the button on the app again.  When running automated from a computer, these missed commands can be a big deal (not getting the speed 0 command to stop is a problem ).  The WTIU gives MTH the opportunity to fix some of these 'under the hood" issues and make DCS better than it has ever been.

Last edited by Dave Hikel

I am going to date myself. At one time I used an Al Trol Walkaround throttle back before Command control. A tethered remote that controlled conventional engines.  On a walkaround layout designed for operations and switching. It worked very well. It had a memory so that when you unplugged it you followed the train and could plug it in further down the line. TMCC and DCS made it pretty much obsolete with their wireless remotes.

My layout is based on operations. I’d still rather tether a remote than run it with a phone. Many HO operators are still running this way. It’s been known you can tether the remote to the new TIU. Is it possible to run multiple Remote Inputs around the layout ?  Not ideal but the way I run trains I could live with it. I have backups and until something fails I’m not going to worry about. I’m fine with what I have for equipment.

Last edited by Dave_C
@Dave Hikel posted:
  MTH did discontinue the WIU, but not for lack of component availability.

So why did ATLAS just recent catalog the WIU as a for sale item?
https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-618...-interface-unit.aspx

@Dave Hikel posted:
Super Mode is eliminated from the WTIU because it is no longer necessary.  The purpose of Super Mode was directly linked to the use of the 900MHz radio.  It was used to filter which commands were intended for which TIU's.  Now that the WTIU uses 2.4GHz WiFi (or can be hard wired via ethernet cables) that filtering capability is built-in.  Each WTIU will have a unique IP address, which allows for the same command filtering to be handled by the DCS app.  This not only eliminates the need for Super Mode, but it also eliminates the limitation of DCS to only 250 switches and 250 accessories.  Since the DCS app keeps track of WIU's and WTIU's by IP address, you can have more than 5 WIU/TIU combos or WTIU's, and each can have up to 5 AIU's.

As I mentioned before, I think the OLD TIU with a WIU is currently the most desirable hardware package because it lets you use both the DCS remote (without tether) and the DCS app.  However, I am very interested to get my hands on a WTIU when they come out.  There have always been some weaknesses in the serial link between the TIU and WIU that make undetected command errors possible.  When running from the app or DCS remote this generally isn't a big deal.  If a command got corrupted and therefore ignored, you simply pressed the button on the app again.  When running automated from a computer, these missed commands can be a big deal (not getting the speed 0 command to stop is a problem ).  The WTIU gives MTH the opportunity to fix some of these 'under the hood" issues and make DCS better than it has ever been.

This makes sense as the APP will be networked with each WTIU or WIU/TIU combo. Super Mode on the remote broadcasted commands to each TIU whether they need it or not.

Last edited by H1000
@Dave Hikel posted:


Personally, I hope the market will twist their arms to make at least one more batch of WIU's so that anyone who wants one can get one.  The combo of an OLD TIU with a WIU is the most capable DCS setup, because it the only way to use both the DCS app and DCS remote (without a tether).

Amen

@H1000 posted:

So why did ATLAS just recent catalog the WIU as a for sale item?
https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-618...-interface-unit.aspx



Fingers crossed

@Dave_C posted:

I am going to date myself. At one time I used an Al Trol Walkaround throttle back before Command control. A tethered remote that controlled conventional engines.  On a walkaround layout designed for operations and switching. It worked very well. It had a memory so that when you unplugged it you followed the train and could plug it in further down the line. TMCC and DCS made it pretty much obsolete with their wireless remotes.

My very first paying job in model railroading was to re-wire a layout with Al Trol to run DCS and TMCC.  It took a bit of work to make it run well with all three systems, but it worked.  The irony is that the owner never used Al Trol again.  The Al Trol throttles are still on the layout today, curly cords and all, but once DCS and TMCC were up and running he never went back.

@H1000 posted:

So why did ATLAS just recent catalog the WIU as a for sale item?
https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-618...-interface-unit.aspx

It's a VERY hopeful sign.  I'll believe it when they show up.

@H1000 posted:

@Dave Hikel

So is it safe to assume the WTIU will not have a select-able address of 1 - 5 like the TIU? I don't see the point if it will be addressed by an IP address and doesn't need to support the old remote.

It won't need it.  There was purpose to keeping the distinction of the TIU address with the TIU/WIU combo.  The app is able to query to TIU's address.  That allows the app to import the switch and accessory rosters and maintain the same "paths."  If the WTIU still has an address (1-5) it will probably be used to maintain that same backwards compatibility when importing a remote data file or to make it easier to swap out a TIU for a WTIU.

@H1000 posted:

@Dave Hikel

Another question (and you probably don't have the answer), can a remote tethered to a WTIU communicate to other non-tehered WTIUs via the network they share?

Almost certainly not.  The remote input port has always used the same serial port on the MC16 processor (the real brains of the TIU) as the 900MHz radio.  Whenever you connect the remote via the tether, the radio in both the DCS remote and TIU are turned off.  That prevents the possibility of multiple commands hitting the serial port at the same time from different sources.  To make a tethered remote work while the 2.4GHz WiFi is still functioning, the remote input would have to be moved to a separate serial port on the MC16.  That would be possible in the WTIU. The MC16 has three serial ports.  In the OLD TIU one serial port is used to control the AIU's, the second talks to the radio transceiver, and the third connects to the RS-232 serial port (and the USB port on Rev. L's).  If the serial port for the RS-232 port is re-purposed for the remote input you could keep the 2.4GHz WiFi transceiver active, but it would take both physical changes to the hardware and major changes to the firmware.  I highly doubt MTH will put in the coding effort to make that change.

@Dave Hikel

Thanks for the explanations Dave, you confirmed what I suspected. We'll need to rework our project to maybe use the serial port instead which shouldn't take much. I wonder if tethering a remote to the WTIU will disable the WIFI? I may never find out as my prototype board will be returned at the end of April and I doubt the WTIU will show up by then.

I believe it is very possible that MTH could build an add-on device for the WTIU that would support the original DCS Remote via one of the external interface ports (most likely the serial or USB) on the WTIU.

@H1000 posted:

So why did ATLAS just recent catalog the WIU as a for sale item?
https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-618...-interface-unit.aspx

This makes sense as the APP will be networked with each WTIU or WIU/TIU combo. Super Mode on the remote broadcasted commands to each TIU whether they need it or not.

This is really great news.  I can't imagine them adding it to their catalog if it wasn't going to be available, right?

@H1000 posted:

So why did ATLAS just recent catalog the WIU as a for sale item?
https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-618...-interface-unit.aspx

This makes sense as the APP will be networked with each WTIU or WIU/TIU combo. Super Mode on the remote broadcasted commands to each TIU whether they need it or not.

Thank you for the link.  I would feel more reassured if the "Preorder" button actually worked when I clicked on it but I trust that at some point, it will.

Thanks to Dave Hikel and his advice, "As I mentioned before, I think the OLD TIU with a WIU is currently the most desirable hardware package because it lets you use both the DCS remote (without tether) and the DCS app," I would buy the WIU.  I feel I would then be pretty well set with DCS, at least for this lifetime.

Peter Gentieu

@LT1Poncho posted:

Still find it odd that most of us have smart phones and use them on a daily basis. Some have tablets. The DCS remotes are going for as much as $200-400 on some sites i've seen. An Amazon Fire Tablet can be had for $50 and it will run all your stuff wirelessly, Old TIU or New TIU. Some folks love their old remote. I get it.

I really think that this gets at one of the fundamental short comings of touch screen devices (phones, tablets, etc.) and one of the greatest strengths if the DCS remote.  The DCS remote is an excellent piece of ergonomic design.  A person with anywhere near average sized hands can hold the remote in their palm and operate all the key locomotive functions with the thumb of the same hand.  Speed, direction, bell, and whistle operations are all under your control with one hand AND without having to look at the remote.  The layout of the buttons and their varying shapes and textures make it very easy for an operator familiar with the remote to run their train without ever having to take their eyes off their locomotive.  If the thumbwheel was improved (more like a mouse wheel) and the refresh rate of the remote faster (could process scrolling as fast as you scroll) the thing would be darn near perfect.

Similarly, the Legacy remote has many tactile advantages over touch screen devices.  The Legacy remote (and Cab-1) is more of a two handed device because of the placement of the throttle knob, but you never have to look down to know you have your hand on the speed control.  To me, the greatest feature of the Cab-2 is the whistle and bell slider.  Like the DCS remote, this feature is pretty easy to control one handed and without looking.

In contrast, touch screens almost always require you to look at them to locate the proper area of the screen to touch.  I've become somewhat adept at hitting the whistle slider on the DCS app without having to look at the screen.  I can ride my finger on the edge of the screen and pick up the slider pretty reliably, but it's nowhere near as good as a physical slider like on the Cab-2.  Until these limitations can be overcome I expect there will always be a market for dedicated hardware remotes like the DCS remote, Cab-1, and Cab-2.

When we were working with MTH on the develop of the DCS app I came up with a scheme to control engine speed, direction, and the whistle using the two volume buttons on a phone.  It wouldn't work well on a tablet, but with a phone you could control the basics with one hand and without looking at the screen.  MTH decided not to go for the idea because it would be Android only.  Apple doesn't give developers nearly as much access to re-purpose the volume buttons.  MTH wanted the user interface to be as consistent as possible between operating systems.  I hope someday we'll get to the point where companies can use inexpensive Android based hardware in custom remote designs with more physical hardware inputs (buttons, sliders, wheels).  To me, that will give us the best of both worlds and finally surpass the capabilities of the DCS remote, Cab-1, and Cab-2.

@Mallard4468 posted:

Oh yeah, I noticed!  Just having some fun and poking at the circular nature of some of the posts in this thread.

And if I had to bet on who will deliver first - you or MTH - I think you can guess where my money would be.

Don't place your bets just yet, I did this to satisfy my own curiosity. If I can get this to market it will be a long road!

Last edited by H1000
@Dave Hikel posted:

I really think that this gets at one of the fundamental short comings of touch screen devices (phones, tablets, etc.) and one of the greatest strengths if the DCS remote.  The DCS remote is an excellent piece of ergonomic design.  A person with anywhere near average sized hands can hold the remote in their palm and operate all the key locomotive functions with the thumb of the same hand.  Speed, direction, bell, and whistle operations are all under your control with one hand AND without having to look at the remote.  The layout of the buttons and their varying shapes and textures make it very easy for an operator familiar with the remote to run their train without ever having to take their eyes off their locomotive.  If the thumbwheel was improved (more like a mouse wheel) and the refresh rate of the remote faster (could process scrolling as fast as you scroll) the thing would be darn near perfect.

Similarly, the Legacy remote has many tactile advantages over touch screen devices.  The Legacy remote (and Cab-1) is more of a two handed device because of the placement of the throttle knob, but you never have to look down to know you have your hand on the speed control.  To me, the greatest feature of the Cab-2 is the whistle and bell slider.  Like the DCS remote, this feature is pretty easy to control one handed and without looking.

In contrast, touch screens almost always require you to look at them to locate the proper area of the screen to touch.  I've become somewhat adept at hitting the whistle slider on the DCS app without having to look at the screen.  I can ride my finger on the edge of the screen and pick up the slider pretty reliably, but it's nowhere near as good as a physical slider like on the Cab-2.  Until these limitations can be overcome I expect there will always be a market for dedicated hardware remotes like the DCS remote, Cab-1, and Cab-2.

When we were working with MTH on the develop of the DCS app I came up with a scheme to control engine speed, direction, and the whistle using the two volume buttons on a phone.  It wouldn't work well on a tablet, but with a phone you could control the basics with one hand and without looking at the screen.  MTH decided not to go for the idea because it would be Android only.  Apple doesn't give developers nearly as much access to re-purpose the volume buttons.  MTH wanted the user interface to be as consistent as possible between operating systems.  I hope someday we'll get to the point where companies can use inexpensive Android based hardware in custom remote designs with more physical hardware inputs (buttons, sliders, wheels).  To me, that will give us the best of both worlds and finally surpass the capabilities of the DCS remote, Cab-1, and Cab-2.

Dave, I agree with most of what you saying here. The disappointment for me in all of the remote offered by Lionel & MTH there inability to look at hand held remotes & game pads used in other industries when they designed their hardware. Why MTH couldn't have put a trigger button under the remote (like an N64 controller from 1998) instead of pressing the wheel to confirm your choice.  

When it comes to looking at screens and the remote buttons, the DCS remote does allow basic functionality in this department but anything beyond speed, direction, bell and whistle, you are looking down at keypad and screen.   I can switch engines much faster on a large roster with the app than I ever could on the remote scrolling through the roster 1 line at time looking for the one I want to run (and don't scroll to fast!). Another area where the app excels is operating in low / no light situations. The screen is fully illuminated and every function is visible where as the DCS remote & tactile buttons on the CAB2 are not backlit.

Depending on your handicap, the accessibility of the app is better too.  We have a member at one of the clubs who has bad arthritis. He can't grip the remotes very well let alone press the buttons on them.  He was able to experience command control for the first time using the DCS app on a large tablet with a weighted stylus.  Accessibility features of the android & app operating systems can far outweigh any handheld remote if they are built-in and used properly in an app.

The game pad interface I built for the DCS app (posted earlier) gives you the best of both worlds.  No more "one size fits most" remote, because you can choose between 100's of tablet add-on remotes available online. Fully assignable buttons to customize where functions reside on your app remote. I believe it is actually the first time the MTH Quilling whistle has been used on an analog control that physically simulates "pulling the rope".

At some point the band-aid of the hand held remotes has to come off, MTH has picked the faster route and Lionel is going for the slow pull.

Last edited by H1000

Just wondering if anyone in the O-gauge world bothered to look at what's going on in the DCC realm.  Thinking specifically about the Digitrax DT602 - I used one recently on a friend's layout.  Ergonomic design, wireless, easy to read screen, ability to control multiple engines, knobs for speed control, easy-to-use buttons, and they're available.  Seems like someone could figure out how to overcome the technical obstacles and make something like that work for DCS (and/or TMCC).  It's really frustrating to hear our scale brethren laugh about our incompatible and unavailable systems.

@H1000 posted:

The current TIU/WIU combo does, I don't see why they would remove that functionality with WTIU.

So a large layout currently using 3 TIU's would need 3 WIU's and when using the WiFi mode they would be controlled automatically as if they were in Supermode. Correct?

While that works for folks using the variable ports, what about those with the Z-4000 plug-in adapters for voltage control? Is there anything to do that? Thanks.

@BobbyD posted:

So a large layout currently using 3 TIU's would need 3 WIU's and when using the WiFi mode they would be controlled automatically as if they were in Supermode. Correct?

This is correct. The WIU's would need to be all connected to the same Network so that they can communicate in super mode. This doesn't require any special networking equipment, it can be done between the WIU's themselves if needed.

@BobbyD posted:

While that works for folks using the variable ports, what about those with the Z-4000 plug-in adapters for voltage control? Is there anything to do that? Thanks.

Currently there is no way to control the Z4K receiver module with the app. MTH R&D eluded earlier in another thread that they are working on a new Z4K receiver to allow this ability but I'm sure it will be a while before we see such a device hit the market.

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