Reading the York DCS meeting, it sounds if MTH will no longer manufacture remotes after current batch is gone. I started this thread to keep the summary from going off topic, to clarify the meaning.
If that is true then will future DCS then rely on user having the WIFI setup and needing to purchase a smart phone plus the monthly phone a data package?
But I guess if you can afford MTH then you already have smart phone and home intranet hardware.
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Buy some extras now. 
I was at the meeting and was not sure how to take it. I know they are really pushing the use of smart devices to run their trains. I'm hopefully getting into operating sessions in the future. I have Legacy, Cab 2 Lites, DCS, and DCS wifi. Out of all the ways to run my trains. I prefer the DCS remote as far as ease running trains in this scenario. That includes running my Legacy trains with it. I think it's the most user friendly. I've read a few threads on this. Many still prefer using the Cab 1 for it's simplicity and range when running like this.
I just can't imagine selling a complete system with no remote. Maybe it's just the separate sale of remotes. Even a present day TV still comes with a remote.
Yep GRJ plan to buy another plus a repalcement thumbwheel assembly.
I am guessing the next TIU batch will have the WIFI or whatever its called built-in and no remote transceiver board. Will be interesting to have MTH clarify what direction they are going. Of course, when the next big thing comes along then the WIFI smart phone will be passe, obsoleting them and forcing upgrades.
Makes me almost want to go back to the low tech transformer operated fwd/neut/rev engines with buzzing E switch and growling motors (yeah I know its your layout) 
Maybe JCL was right to stick to what works rather than changing. Nice to be innovative as long as its backwards compatiable.
Guess have to wait all knowing Barry B to clarify.
RRMAN,
You do not need to purchase a cellular plan to operate DCS using WiFi. You can use any iOS or Android, smartphone or tablet, with WiFi (not cellular) capability. No cellular or data plan is required.
I too still like the DCS remote. Have been thinking about getting another one just in case? However, if you don't have a smart phone and might be thinking about one (or two)...
FWIW, T-Mobile has a deal for those of us over 55. Two phones, unlimited everything for $60 a month, no added fees or taxes. You have to sign up for auto pay to get the $60 a month, otherwise it's $70 for same deal and you pay monthly as most of us are accustomed to. I put the monthly charge on my Visa, I get cash back and I don't like anyone having access to my bank account.
My wife wanted an iphone and I was talking to the phone guy at Costco. He told me about the T-Mobile deal. Verizon was charging me $47 & change per month for one flip phone, 400 minutes, no data and no text. This was a week or two before the iphone 8 came out and Costco had the iphone 7 for $100 off. After learning all that, I got 2 iphones (the 7) and switched. The guy set me up and changed everything right there in Costso. So far, after about 3 months now, I have been very happy with T-Mobile and the iphones. Still learning to use the iphone, but they are very handy to have and I think I have now been converted. 
But, I still like the DCS remote to run trains. Switching to the app may be in the cards someday though.
Anyway, just something I ran across a few months ago and thought I would pass it on in case anyone was interested. It is really a pretty good deal. T-Mobile's coverage in the West and Rocky Mountain areas hasn't quite caught up to Verizon, but it's getting there. They cover the East and Midwest pretty well. So be sure to check the coverage in your area...'can you hear me now' type of thing.
I am in no way connected with Costco or T-Mobile either, just thought this was a good deal. I am sure you can get the phones anywhere and also the T-mobile service where ever it is offered.
And a oops, I should have also added what Barry posted above, you don't need smart phone service to use the app, just a smart device with wifi to run the app. I got carried away with the T-Mobile deal...
I'm waiting for iDCS-X.
Gee!! I like to grab that old transformer handle 60 yrs young and going strong. Same technology.
Most of us are running with a DCS remote and the world has plenty to go around. I run remotes a bit different than most. Remote 1 is for steam locomotives, remote 2 for diesel locomotives, and remote 3 for electric locomotives. I have three more frankenstein remotes that are clones of remote 1, 2, and 3. I run an extra layout remote for running any Legacy locomotives and an extra for the workbench. Many people I know throw any bad/broken remotes at me and I have parts to build several if needed. Over the years I have been able to help friends that need parts. I always keep a good stock of thumbwheels.
Being a MTH DCS WiFi beta tester, I do not use the remote as much with the new ability to use the phone or iPad. For those who attend York, can be up to speed in short time with information from Barry and the help at the MTH booth. Those who want to learn this easy to use system could buy the great book that Barry Broskowitz did.
We are lucky today to have great electronics and high powered transformers for our layouts. A great time to be in the hobby.
Marty Fitzhenry posted:Most of us are running with a DCS remote and the world has plenty to go around. I run remotes a bit different than most. Remote 1 is for steam locomotives, remote 2 for diesel locomotives, and remote 3 for electric locomotives. I have three more frankenstein remotes that are clones of remote 1, 2, and 3. I run an extra layout remote for running any Legacy locomotives and an extra for the workbench. Many people I know throw any bad/broken remotes at me and I have parts to build several if needed. Over the years I have been able to help friends that need parts. I always keep a good stock of thumbwheels.
Being a MTH DCS WiFi beta tester, I do not use the remote as much with the new ability to use the phone or iPad. For those who attend York, can be up to speed in short time with information from Barry and the help at the MTH booth. Those who want to learn this easy to use system could buy the great book that Barry Broskowitz did.
We are lucky today to have great electronics and high powered transformers for our layouts. A great time to be in the hobby.
Let's see:
1. Many kids run trains
2. Most kids have no trouble using a remote, even most special-needs kids
3. The wifi system needs a smart phone or tablet.
4. Not every parent wants their kids to have smart phones or tablet.
5. Kids having tablets often have access to electronic games.
6. Not every family can afford to get smart phones or tablets for their kids.
7. THEREFORE, MTH can increase sales & profits by eliminating the remote and relying on users having smart phones.
Oh yes, to continue future production of the remote, probably only minute engineering costs would be required.
But hey, sound business decisions enhanced AT&T, GE, etc.
Good for MTH!!!
Developing and manufacturing hardware (i.e handheld remotes) and the software to run them is taking $$$ away from them actually making trains. Developing a software App and using existing hardware (i.e. Ipad, Iphone) isn't nearly as costly.
Electronic components are made in batches. When that batch runs out it can be difficult to impossible to get another run made as technology outpaces manufacturing.
For me, it's either this (for Bluerail App):
Or this (for Deltang, no App, just turn the knobs):
I still have my DCS and CAB/Base-1L, but they're "put up" in a box.
I pulled out my DCS system the other day and it took me over an hour to remember how to use it, last time I used it was a year ago.
All this wonderful technology but they still can't make an engine that doesn't fall apart when you take it out of the box !!
Jim,
All this wonderful technology but they still can't make an engine that doesn't fall apart when you take it out of the box !!
Oh, please! Really?
Barry Broskowitz posted:RRMAN,
You do not need to purchase a cellular plan to operate DCS using WiFi. You can use any iOS or Android, smartphone or tablet, with WiFi (not cellular) capability. No cellular or data plan is required.
For what I know about smart phones (I use an old Tracfone flip, don't know what I would need a smart phone for ), don't you have to have a plan and be connected to cellular system to download the WIFI DCS app, otherwise how do you get the app loaded into a used "dead, no plan, off-line" phone????
And as follow on, if I decided to go the WIFI route, where do you buy used smart phone and what would be the minimum required to avoid spending hundreds? And curious what additional bells and whistles are gained over the old remote besides, bigger colorful screen?
You can purchase a new android tablet at Walmart for $68, about half of the cost of a dcs remote.
rrman posted:Barry Broskowitz posted:RRMAN,
You do not need to purchase a cellular plan to operate DCS using WiFi. You can use any iOS or Android, smartphone or tablet, with WiFi (not cellular) capability. No cellular or data plan is required.
For what I know about smart phones (I use an old Tracfone flip, don't know what I would need a smart phone for
And as follow on, if I decided to go the WIFI route, where do you buy used smart phone and what would be the minimum required to avoid spending hundreds? And curious what additional bells and whistles are gained over the old remote besides, bigger colorful screen?
I have an iPad that does not have cellular capabilities. It can’t make phone calls or go on the internet without a local WiFi signal (my home system) or WiFi hotspot. It costs nothing to operate it. You would operate your cell phone or tablet in the same manner. If you don’t have WiFi at home you can connect it to your internet through your computer.
Not sure where you would get used cell phones or tablets other than eBay.
Rich883 posted:You can purchase a new android tablet at Walmart for $68, about half of the cost of a dcs remote.
However, you have to have already purchased the WiFi system, one for each TIU.
One issue with continuing the old remote is parts do become obsolete, thus manufacturers are obligated to either redesign the product or discontinue it for a newer version or product. That's what happened to both the 5V PS/2 board and the 3V PS/2 board. Both have a number of obsolete parts that are no longer available. Even if MTH didn't go to PS/3, they would have had to do design work on both versions of the PS/2 boards to continue producing them.
Yes John I agree, you will need a wifi unit, and load the software/app.
I guess my point was moving forward it would cost less than the remote. I looked up smart phone adoption in the US and tablet adoption. Smart phones were well over 70%, over 90% I recall under 40 or so, and tablet adoption I believe was over half.
With rates like that and growing, dedicated remotes for small volume manufacturing is clearly on the way out.
I have been buying extra remotes for the DCS and Legacy. But mostly the MTH remotes because I think Lionel will not stop making them. I just would rather use the hand held remote them use my phone or a tablet. I can't see running down my phone battery to run trains..............Paul
kennyb posted:Marty Fitzhenry posted:Most of us are running with a DCS remote and the world has plenty to go around. I run remotes a bit different than most. Remote 1 is for steam locomotives, remote 2 for diesel locomotives, and remote 3 for electric locomotives. I have three more frankenstein remotes that are clones of remote 1, 2, and 3. I run an extra layout remote for running any Legacy locomotives and an extra for the workbench. Many people I know throw any bad/broken remotes at me and I have parts to build several if needed. Over the years I have been able to help friends that need parts. I always keep a good stock of thumbwheels.
Being a MTH DCS WiFi beta tester, I do not use the remote as much with the new ability to use the phone or iPad. For those who attend York, can be up to speed in short time with information from Barry and the help at the MTH booth. Those who want to learn this easy to use system could buy the great book that Barry Broskowitz did.
We are lucky today to have great electronics and high powered transformers for our layouts. A great time to be in the hobby.
That's great to know Marty.You have always been great to me, and your reputation as a great guy is unmatched in the O gauge world.
What was left this morning was my new signature,not a reply,
I did not even think it posted!!,since my PC was acting up earlier today.
I will e-mail you tonight or tomorrow,as I need to speak with you about something.
Anyway,I wanted you to know that was not a reply,and it's great to know that you will be there to help us all out with our remote issues in the future. Thanks again for all your help.-Kenny Baughman
RJR posted:3. The wifi system needs a smart phone or tablet.
4. Not every parent wants their kids to have smart phones or tablet.
5. Kids having tablets often have access to electronic games.
While I agree completely that many don't want to can't afford smart phones, if someone cannot afford a cheap or tablet how are they going to afford a Wi-Fi MTH set that can easily run over $380 or $400? MTH sets are not cheap plastic sets you buy at the dollar store, they are relatively high end sets for the average person looking for a fun toy.
I was hoping for a new remote , maybe 2 new remotes . one for steam & one for diesel with new features such as an 8 notch throttle, automatic train brake ( capacitors slowly charging & discharging). Engine brake (spring loaded toggle) Being able to select different tonnage. Plus most of the features we already have.
The steam remote.... wheel slip, (pretty hard top do with traction tires , get rid of them) Heavy or light train selection. Having to work the throttle & Johnson bar together. spring loaded engine brake.
Wishful thinking? Yep, but I don't have to buy anything new from MTH and I'm not.
Gregg posted:The steam remote.... wheel slip, (pretty hard top do with traction tires , get rid of them) Heavy or light train selection. Having to work the throttle & Johnson bar together. spring loaded engine brake.
Wishful thinking? Yep, but I don't have to buy anything new from MTH and I'm not.
Adding these features is a great deal easier for MTH to accomplish with the app than a new remote. The interface in the app would just change slightly between steam and diesel. With the app this could be a software change instead of a hardware change requiring new tooling to be made for a new remote with different buttons or new space for nobs etc.
Some of old farts don't want an App, We like the feel of actually operating something.
I guess I get a little discourage when I look at my grandkids staring into their cell phones constantly... Texting and driving is a big problem here now. Everyone seems to be doing it. Big fines as well.
The reason I like the DCS remote is that I can operate it by feel. No need to have to constantly look down at a screen.
Amazon is selling the Fire 7 Tablets for $29.99...cheap enough for a remote.
I won't buy one because of the ads that appear on the lockscreen and they can't be rooted without bricking.
If you want a used tablet try looking thru the Goodwill online auctions. I recently bought a older Dell Desktop PC without a hard drive for like $25 shipped from them.
I think Joe's comment about operating by feel sums it up for me. Try do switching moves on sidings using a tablet. I'm afraid I'm not that skilled looking at the train and tablet at the same time. The DCS remote is by far the most user friendly remote for this.
Dave_C posted:I think Joe's comment about operating by feel sums it up for me. Try do switching moves on sidings using a tablet. I'm afraid I'm not that skilled looking at the train and tablet at the same time. The DCS remote is by far the most user friendly remote for this.
As a 75+ year old, I totally agree! There is no way in he&& I'm buying a "smart phone" or "tablet" to operate the up-stairs layout!! I have four DCS handhelds now, and will simply purchase one or two additional ones. When visitors come over, we simply hand them a DCS handheld, or a TMCC Cab-1 (we have 3 of those), or a Legacy Cab-2 (we have two of those).
Too bad someone from MTH (Andy E?) wasn't reading this thread. Probably figure these comments are minuscule and not representative of the real world or where the market is headed.
I agree with those saying they can operate DCS remote by feel without having to keep reading the screen. All I really use DCS remote for is speed and direction mainly by feel. I can do the same with my TV recorder remote hitting play, fast fwd, fast rev, and pause by feel.
As far as component obsolescence, MTH will keep hitting this wall no matter whether building the TIU, WIFI interface, the remote or PS3/4/5/6/etc.
I had the same "fun" in aviation when a vendor sent out notice that XYZ chip will stop manufacture at such date and to send in last buy orders. So we need a crystal ball and hope 2000 (maybe 20K? or should it be 200K?) pieces will cover all build orders as well as future field repair requirements? And what if anticipated orders don't materialize now we are stuck with tied up money in "obsolete" parts.
As for me I will buy several remotes just for safety.
Casey,
Amazon is selling the Fire 7 Tablets for $29.99...cheap enough for a remote
That may not be such a good idea.
My son and I spent some time attempting to use the DCS App on his daughters’ Kindle Fire tablets. We found that we could use a workaround to install the free version of the app on the Kindle Fire and that it worked fine. However, all attempts to update to the Standard or Premium versions were unsuccessful. The Kindle refused to access the Google Play store from within the app.
E-mail conversation with MTH R&D confirmed that doing so was not possible.
If you plan to use only the free version of the app, that’s fine. However, if you plan to update to either the Standard or Premium versions, not so much.
Gregg,
Some of old farts don't want an App, We like the feel of actually operating something.
Meaning no disrespect, I don’t think that MTH has us old farts as prospective customers for the app.
Whats an "app" ??
I haven't used my App or the refurbished I pad I bought in over 6 months, but I just took delivery of my 5th remote. Like posted above I operate the remote by feel, it stays in my right hand below waist level and the left hand is throwing switches and uncoupling cars, Kadee equipped. I thought I would keep it for just the AIU but it only shows a small number of switches, in even smaller print. and no keyboard to select anything by number. The only thing the app is good at, is one train on one loop.
Now to order some spare remote thumb wheels.
Clem
.
I did it and it works find
Actually, I don’t think that you did.
There’s no question that one can get the DCS App to install on a Kindle Fire. That’s very doable.
The difficulty is getting the in-app purchase of the Standard or Premium upgrade accomplished. One does not do this using the Google Play Store, rather, it must be done from within the app from the More.../Upgrade screen. When one does this on a Kindle Fire, the app cycles endlessly.
Rich883 posted:You can purchase a new android tablet at Walmart for $68, about half of the cost of a dcs remote.
Rich I bought two 7" tablets that work great for $45 at Shopko early this year. These things are so mass produced they are being built at throw away rates.
My two cents, we need to attract younger enthusiasts to our hobby and not just keep on doing what we have been doing for decades. Dedicated remotes with chunky buttons aren't "cool" to a twenty or thirty something year old. Keeping the dedicated remotes is a costly manufacturing venture that eventually starts bringing down the cool features that can be put into the app because the remote has no way of incorporating them.
I envision an app that we will someday customize the control screen and move buttons where we want them and how big we want them on the screen. Don't like the large speedometer wheel... you could customize the screen and remove it and place other functions you want easy access to. Not to mention the ability to add voice commands through your device and not event have to look at the screen or push buttons to change speed or do other functions. The software app will never have the limitations of a hardware remote, ever.
....I'm still gonna be rollin when they "stop supporting" the rolling computers as well 
"
Without buttons all chances of me ever buying into DCS to manage my few command trains are lost. Touch screen tech isn't foolproof. Neither is voice command. I worked with both professionally and HATE it.
Maybe in another 10-20 years, but as of now, I still have to type with a stylus at times, and every business call I make anymore takes twenty minutes because voice recognition has trouble with my voice.
The reason they are dumping it is overhead costs, not because it's "better technology"; better tech is more reliable.
Just a personal observation from watching my 9 year old. He has an iPad which he is normally pretty attached to!
However when it comes to trains he always goes for the physical remote. When we are running the layout. I run a train from my phone or iPad and he runs his from the remote.
Nick
Here's a thought. The big boys with the latest locomotives have touch screens but STILL use console throttle and brake handles to control the train. Being factitious, imagine the engineer running his train by staring at the screens to scroll throttle and brakes up and down and having to punch up different screens for different functions, and looking out the window for idiots crossing the tracks.
Me, I want to watch the layout train run, not be busy staring at the screen(s). And I like the comfort of that remotes red STOP button just in case my Y3 decides on a new path into the J611 (or worst, heading for a swan dive to the floor off the siding end?) !! How fast can you find the emergency stop on the screen?
I know we can debate this back and forth and realize the future is coming, but sometime old things are best things IMO.
Personally, I think they are making a mistake in going to smart device/app control only. Not to mention selling sets that don't come with any sort of controller whatever. There are lots of folks who will prefer using a physical remote. And with good reason. Using a smart device eliminates one of the senses--touch. For both practical and aesthetic reasons, touch is valuable and enjoyable for lots of folks. A simple example. I absolutely hate using my phone or tablet for writing. I'd rather dictate, which is far from perfect, but a lot better than trying to use a virtual keyboard. No one learns to keyboard on a virtual device. If I'm writing, I want a physical keyboard. Perhaps not a perfect analogy, but makes the point. Touch is sometimes important for both function and enjoyment. MTH is limiting their market unnecessarily by insisting that all future purchasers use a virtual device rather than a physical device.
Perhaps a simple DCS physical remote for basic functions (speed, direction, whistle, bell, couplers) would be possible? Akin to the LC+ Universal Remote but able to control more than three locos? If it could be sold for under $100, it would be a winner, I'd guess. And it would keep options open that some users will prefer. My prediction: after a few years of growing complaints they will do so simply to keep their market share stable or growing. That's what led to the Lionel Universal LC/LC+ Remote is my guess.
I suspect we'll see some other tactile controllers emerge that work with the wi-fi system.
I could see connecting a physical throttle control to a phone via bluetooth - and have that work with the app over wi-fi.
Simple encoder controls can't be that hard to implement.
I'm curious - does the app accept any sort of keyboard input?
I will not run my trains with anything other than a DCS handheld remote. I do not have or will I have in the future a pad phone. There are many more like me, so I think the DCS handheld remote is here to stay.
Roving Sign posted:I suspect we'll see some other tactile controllers emerge that work with the wi-fi system.
I could see connecting a physical throttle control to a phone via bluetooth - and have that work with the app over wi-fi.
Simple encoder controls can't be that hard to implement.
I'm curious - does the app accept any sort of keyboard input?
Unless MTH will let 3rd parties develop something or a generic interface will work then I doubt we'll see this. I'm one to prefer the feel of a remote but I also understand the added cost to produce them are becoming unnecessary as 3rd party Hardware can control easily updated proprietary software.
MartyE posted:Roving Sign posted:I suspect we'll see some other tactile controllers emerge that work with the wi-fi system.
I could see connecting a physical throttle control to a phone via bluetooth - and have that work with the app over wi-fi.
Simple encoder controls can't be that hard to implement.
I'm curious - does the app accept any sort of keyboard input?
Unless MTH will let 3rd parties develop something or a generic interface will work then I doubt we'll see this. I'm one to prefer the feel of a remote but I also understand the added cost to produce them are becoming unnecessary as 3rd party Hardware can control easily updated proprietary software.
Thats just it - encoders don't have much logic, its just a knob in a fancy case, not much different than the scroll wheel on your mouse - It should be like connecting a bluetooth mouse. Pair and go.
The cost would all be in creating an attractive case with some weight and a nice feel.
I'm not sure they have to let anyone do anything as long as the wireless side TIU<--->remote stays the same.... see this guys webpage: http://www.silogic.com/trains/RTC_Running.html
Anyone could in theory take the core software and turn into their own kind of remote for example.
That's why I said generic interface.
What MTH needs is a good core layout/fleet management program for the PC/Mac (Call it "DCS Central") - and have the phone app just for train control. Just pick what engines you are going to run - load them to the phone roster and go - no need to manage your roster/fleet from your phone...which sounds like a pain.
I agree it would be nice if they simply published the interface so that anyone could build to it. I don't see how this hurts them, you still need their interface hardware to connect to track and engine, etc... and to my knowledge they give the current computer software away anyway... so what's it to them if someone else comes along with wadja-jiggit controller? Might even increase sales. But (apparently) that's not the way they roll ...
Seems to me that the tail is starting to wag the dog. The hobby is supposed to be about TRAINS not how they are controlled.
jim pastorius posted:Seems to me that the tail is starting to wag the dog. The hobby is supposed to be about TRAINS not how they are controlled.
Don't you think we had the same conversation when the first handheld remote was introduced?
I'm sure there were guys who claimed they would never trade their trusty transformer handles for a scroll wheel...
It appears that business' today think everyone has a smart phone. WELL THEY DON'T. Many don't even have a computer. If MTH eliminates an easy to use controller they will be putting a large customer base into the hands of their competitors. ME? When I start running trains from a phone I will have lost the fun of running the train.
Jim
It must be fairly simple to interface with a bluetooth controller. I have a Mad Catz CTRLi bluetooth controller I can use for tactile control of my Bluerail equipped engines once I connect using my Ipad:
It works fine, but some of the features (changing the setups) on the Ipad App still have to be controlled from the Ipad, but it does allow the control of speed, direction, horn/whistle, bell, and headlight on/off functions.
http://www.madcatz.com/gamepads/ctrli.php
Prices for this type range from $15 to $50 depending on where you get it. I think I paid $40 for mine, but they seem to have come down lately.
Jim 1939 posted:It appears that business' today think everyone has a smart phone. WELL THEY DON'T. Many don't even have a computer. If MTH eliminates an easy to use controller they will be putting a large customer base into the hands of their competitors. ME? When I start running trains from a phone I will have lost the fun of running the train.
Jim
Not knocking you but that's about the same thing I said on this forum about DCS when I first got into O-scale trains. Found the trains ran much better using command control than a transformer throttle.
I've actually gone back to using a handheld throttle with knobs (see my first post) for my Deltang equipped engines, just battery-powered.
I still don't have a smart phone, really have no need or desire to text anyone or take photos of idiotic things people do. My Walmart Tracfone doesn't even flip!!!
The only reason I have an Ipad is my daughter gave it to me as a Christmas gift 2 years ago.
The Ipad does get heavy after a while, they make gadgets to attach it to your hand/arm. I usually use mine to connect with the train via the App, then use the Mad Catz controller to run the train.
Or like this -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBZgl-w2j3A
(there's 15+ vids on this -- that's a kind of summary vid. But the gist is the guy modeled the real controls of a F7 and integrated them into his layout in a kind of cab view... )
Bob Delbridge posted:Jim 1939 posted:It appears that business' today think everyone has a smart phone. WELL THEY DON'T. Many don't even have a computer. If MTH eliminates an easy to use controller they will be putting a large customer base into the hands of their competitors. ME? When I start running trains from a phone I will have lost the fun of running the train.
Jim
I still don't have a smart phone, really have no need or desire to text anyone or take photos of idiotic things people do.
Would that include pictures of model trains? Not everyone uses their phone just for selfies. Both of my phones have cameras that are perfectly fine for taking detailed pictures up close as well as well as pictures from a distance. I haven't had the need to have a separate digital camera for 4-5 years now.
Plus there's the convenience of posting pictures directly from a phone to a forum, FB, or texting them to a friend. I ironically have a friend who is only in his thirties (though he can come across as someone in his sixties or seventies) who refuses to get a mobile phone if any sort, even just for emergency situations. There are times where he has been working on a project on his bench and wants to share an update with friends in a group messenger chat. Knowing that he has to get up, find where the camera is hiding, take a picture, take the camera to his PC to download the picture, and then send it to chat makes the rest of us laugh.
Smart phones aren't for everyone, but they're not just for "taking pictures of idiotic things".
This thread has had many contributors, and if any conclusion can be drawn, it is that a substantial proportion of DCS users still want to retain the remote. Apart from minor redesigns to accommodate possible changes in availability of components (unavailability of remote components is still, as far as we know, conjectural), this means MTH only has to make minimal investments to keep the remote in production, and sell it at a profit. There is no way to calculate how many train sales would be lost if the remote did not exist.
Consider 2 examples in real life: If a railroad tears up all branches and sidings that are minimally profitable or do lose money, eventually there is a loss of traffic on the profitable main lines. GE shed its profitable lines (appliances and lighting) because they didn't make enough profit compared to other lines. Now it's downhill.
Bottom line: Mr. Wolf has to make a decision, and MTH lives or dies with his decisions.
I would think remote control of trains and taking pic's are 2 different subjects. Again personal preferences prevail but not everyone that would like to buy an MTH train is gonna want to run around looking for something to run it with. Those that have been in the hobby have already established how they run trains. The new buyer has not.
RJR posted:This thread has had many contributors, and if any conclusion can be drawn, it is that a substantial proportion of DCS users still want to retain the remote. Apart from minor redesigns to accommodate possible changes in availability of components (unavailability of remote components is still, as far as we know, conjectural), this means MTH only has to make minimal investments to keep the remote in production, and sell it at a profit. There is no way to calculate how many train sales would be lost if the remote did not exist.
Consider 2 examples in real life: If a railroad tears up all branches and sidings that are minimally profitable or do lose money, eventually there is a loss of traffic on the profitable main lines. GE shed its profitable lines (appliances and lighting) because they didn't make enough profit compared to other lines. Now it's downhill.
Bottom line: Mr. Wolf has to make a decision, and MTH lives or dies with his decisions.
You'll be able to buy used remotes for decades to come.
I predict a surplus going forward...
Its not like these changes are making the old hardware obsolete.
I tend to think MTH has run the numbers on this...likely a no-brainer!
Im buying MTH locos - and I don't even have a DCS system yet! - The remote is not a factor in my thinking...in fact, I almost bid on one - and thought - why the heck should I get that thing - when I might be happy with the DCS Explorer?
Here's a question - will the remotes work with the DCS Explorer?
jim pastorius posted:Seems to me that the tail is starting to wag the dog. The hobby is supposed to be about TRAINS not how they are controlled.
Not anymore it seems.
Smart device control is the latest "gosh-oh-golly-gee how can anyone have fun with their trains using anything else" syndrome.
Frankly, if someone's going to be bored with controlling their trains with a transformer, tethered or wireless throttle of other hand held controller, they're eventually going to get bored with using their "smart" device.
BTW. I have a smart phone. It's turned off when I'm at home. (The phone store rep actually asked me why would I want to turn it off...) I occasionally text or take pictures with it. It comes in handy when you suddenly find yourself in an Alfred Hitchcock movie:
I download the pictures from my phone to my computer at the earliest convenience, then clear the phone's memory.
Rusty
Hey, I still use typewriters.
But I'm also okay with Lionels Bluetooth app, for example. Including a physical controller too makes it best of both worlds!
Roving Sign posted:I suspect we'll see some other tactile controllers emerge that work with the wi-fi system.
I could see connecting a physical throttle control to a phone via bluetooth - and have that work with the app over wi-fi.
Simple encoder controls can't be that hard to implement.
I'm curious - does the app accept any sort of keyboard input?
I'm already working on something like with an old Nintendo Wii controller. I am thinking about switching to a MadCatz controller that allows you to attach a smart phone to it. It would be very similar to a drone controller.
HID input devices on Andriod? Yes, I have attached a computer mouse to my tablet which allows me to use that instead of my fingers to interact with the the app. A keyboard shouldn't be much harder, just have to map the functions of the keys. That's where I got the idea of using Wii controller.
bigdodgetrain posted:Barry Broskowitz posted:I did it and it works find
Actually, I don’t think that you did.
There’s no question that one can get the DCS App to install on a Kindle Fire. That’s very doable.
The difficulty is getting the in-app purchase of the Standard or Premium upgrade accomplished. One does not do this using the Google Play Store, rather, it must be done from within the app from the More.../Upgrade screen. When one does this on a Kindle Fire, the app cycles endlessly.
I just love it how your ego gets in the way of facts!!!!
follow my advice or not, I could give a crap
I KNOW IT WORKS!!!!
Big Dodge, I have to agree with Barry on this one.
I'll give you (and Barry) the credit for being able to get the app on the Kindle device by bypassing the app store and installing the APK manually. It's not easy and again the Kindle does not have the Google play connectivity required to allow for an in-app purchase via the Play store.
If you can completely install the Play store on a kindle you would have better success with the upgrades. If you all you need is the Free version, the kindle will work for those who want to go through the steps of installing it. These steps are probable not going to be something the average user would want to engage themselves in.
I tend to think MTH has run the numbers on this...likely a no-brainer!
That's a guess.
And even if you're right, Ford Motor Company ran the numbers, they all pointed to a new way to sell many more cars. And they produced:
The Edsel
I think an interesting question here would if everyone who posts on this thread would included their age. MTH markets new engines (mostly Premier) to the established DCS users 50 and older. They realize that these folks are getting older and eventually will no longer be buying trains.
So then who do they sell to? You can't market the DCS remote to today's generation of new consumers who want to use their smart phones for everything. For those who say you can't learn to type on a touch screen... My niece can type complete phrases and grammatically correct sentences on here phone while holding it behind her back. I can't do that and I'm under 40.
If today's kids are the future of the hobby, then we also need to keep them interested. This is a great way to do it. Look at how many industries that have suffered due to the digital age. Great examples Blockbuster movie rental stores, the digital camera industry has declined rapidly as well as desktop & laptop computers. We can thank Streaming and Smart devices for changing these industries forever.
Anyone watch Back to the Future II? Remember the scene in the cafe' 80's where the kids called the old "Wild Gunman" arcade game a baby's toy because you had to use your hands. They weren't to far from the mark on that one.
RJR posted:I tend to think MTH has run the numbers on this...likely a no-brainer!
That's a guess.
And even if you're right, Ford Motor Company ran the numbers, they all pointed to a new way to sell many more cars. And they produced:
The Edsel
Which is why basic flip phones out sell smart phones today. MTH didn't have to run the numbers, Samsung & Apple did it for them.
The Edsel was never successful. The app and the WIU were very successful, if it wasn't the DCS explorer would have never seen the light of day.
bigdodgetrain posted:H1000 posted:bigdodgetrain posted:Barry Broskowitz posted:I did it and it works find
Actually, I don’t think that you did.
There’s no question that one can get the DCS App to install on a Kindle Fire. That’s very doable.
The difficulty is getting the in-app purchase of the Standard or Premium upgrade accomplished. One does not do this using the Google Play Store, rather, it must be done from within the app from the More.../Upgrade screen. When one does this on a Kindle Fire, the app cycles endlessly.
I just love it how your ego gets in the way of facts!!!!
follow my advice or not, I could give a crap
I KNOW IT WORKS!!!!
Big Dodge, I have to agree with Barry on this one.
I'll give you (and Barry) the credit for being able to get the app on the Kindle device by bypassing the app store and installing the APK manually. It's not easy and again the Kindle does not have the Google play connectivity required to allow for an in-app purchase via the Play store.
If you can completely install the Play store on a kindle you would have better success with the upgrades. If you all you need is the Free version, the kindle will work for those who want to go through the steps of installing it. These steps are probable not going to be something the average user would want to engage themselves in.
did you try it???
don't call me a liar if you do not try it.
Where in my statement did I use the word "liar"? I have a Kindle, I installed the APK, and it worked. Then I thought, "why did I just waste 30 minutes of my life doing this?"
I agree, it is possible, but not easy. It's like running a Mac OS X on a PC. It's possible, but not easy.
The audience for getting people hooked on toy trains is more likely 5-10 years of age than 12-25 years of age, for all the obvious reasons. I believe it's also obvious that the current generation of over 60 toy train fans got hooked in the 1950s and 1960s when they were children. Kids that age don't need or use smart devices as much as older children and young adults. Give them a remote and some interesting things to do with a train and they may well come back to toy trains in their 30s and 40s, or even later. I don't think having trains controlled by a smart device is going to win over any 12-25 year olds. They've got other fish to fry. We'll see who is correct in their approach, Lionel or MTH over the next decade or two, at least those of us who are still around.
Perhaps remember that now as in the past, that first train set is almost always bought by a grandparent or parent, who may or may not be keen on smart devices. The tech savvy 15, 18 or 25 year old who is going to spring for $400 for an MTH set is a rare bird is my guess.
If I were MTH, I'd start thinking about how to make an inexpensive handheld to include in their sets (most importantly) and sell separately for those who buy their first PS3 separate sale loco and the Explorer (of lesser importance).
bigdodgetrain posted:H1000 posted:bigdodgetrain posted:H1000 posted:bigdodgetrain posted:Barry Broskowitz posted:I did it and it works find
Actually, I don’t think that you did.
There’s no question that one can get the DCS App to install on a Kindle Fire. That’s very doable.
The difficulty is getting the in-app purchase of the Standard or Premium upgrade accomplished. One does not do this using the Google Play Store, rather, it must be done from within the app from the More.../Upgrade screen. When one does this on a Kindle Fire, the app cycles endlessly.
I just love it how your ego gets in the way of facts!!!!
follow my advice or not, I could give a crap
I KNOW IT WORKS!!!!
Big Dodge, I have to agree with Barry on this one.
I'll give you (and Barry) the credit for being able to get the app on the Kindle device by bypassing the app store and installing the APK manually. It's not easy and again the Kindle does not have the Google play connectivity required to allow for an in-app purchase via the Play store.
If you can completely install the Play store on a kindle you would have better success with the upgrades. If you all you need is the Free version, the kindle will work for those who want to go through the steps of installing it. These steps are probable not going to be something the average user would want to engage themselves in.
did you try it???
don't call me a liar if you do not try it.
Where in my statement did I use the word "liar"? I have a Kindle, I installed the APK, and it worked. Then I thought, "why did I just waste 30 minutes of my life doing this?"
I agree, it is possible, but not easy. It's like running a Mac OS X on a PC. It's possible, but not easy.
did you not state this? "Big Dodge, I have to agree with Barry on this one."
barry called me a liar and your statement just backs him up. so you called me one too.
why even get involved if you got it to work????
had you not made that statement I would have left you out of this.
Next time I'll be more clear about which parts of Barry's statements I agree with. I was likening more to the technical aspects of the conversation. Barry said "Liar" not me.
I still agree with Barry (on the technical aspects), I don't think you managed to get the app working on the kindle well enough to purchase the standard or premium upgrade. I also backed up you by saying "I agree, it is possible, but not easy. It's like running a Mac OS X on a PC. It's possible, but not easy."
Let me know when you get the Play store app fully functional on your kindle so that the DCS app can be made FULLY functional on a kindle.
Gentlemen, can we call a halt to this non-productive exchange and get back to discussing the remote and the app?
There are a lot of sound reasons for the continuing popularity of the conventional power and hand-held remote control tactile based operating modes. When I taught marketing, I cautioned my students not to favor what they liked, but what the market was telling them. Phone and tablet based apps are the future and the youngsters have this all figured out. Battery power might also fit in this category, but it's a bit early to really know. For a hobby to survive, it must recognize and adapt to it's longer term environment. Lionel, MTH and Bachmann are listening and making product moves in sync with these changes.
Roving Sign posted:I'm sure there were guys who claimed they would never trade their trusty transformer handles for a scroll wheel...
I'm sure there still are folks that would never trade their trusty transformer handle for remote control let alone an app. Just as there will probably be folks still preferring the remote to the app for a long time to come. I might just be one of those too... Personally, I think it is a bit premature to be discontinuing the remotes. If it was up to me the remotes would remain available for at least several years, maybe more. That is if the parts (or substitute parts) for them remain available and they are able to still be made.
I do agree that the app is good for the younger folks and I think it's a great idea to get them interested in the hobby. But I am also saying that us older folks that like the remotes should not be forgotten either. Some older folks probably do use the app, I have it and upgraded to the premium app and I also use it, just not all the time as I still prefer the remote. We should have both for at least a while longer. IMO.
Big Dodge,
Let’s be clear. I never used the word “liar” and I did not call you any names.
Further, my ego, large as it may be, has nothing to do with my statements.
I said, in not so many words, that I didn’t think that you actually got the Standard or Premium version of the app installed on a Kindle device. I did get the free version installed, however, updates are done via an in-app purchase. The in-app procedure just doesn’t work on the Kindle and can’t be worked around using the procedure that you indicated, which can be used to install the free version of the app.
If you can, please demonstrate that you have a functional Premium app running on a Kindle and also list the exact, reproducible steps that you did to accomplish this.
It would be really terrific if we could run the Standard and Premium versions of the app on a Kindle device!
I bought a Kindle and gave up trying to get the app installed. There were several steps that I had to go thru just for the attempt. I followed each step as listed in a post.
Another poster who did get it to work described it as basically changing the operating software on the Kindle if I remember correctly? Something that was over my head to attempt.
I believe my problem was my Kindle is a Fire HD from Amazon. There were some blocks I couldn't get past. Finally the tablet got hacked after I changed the software (added the Google and Playstore apps). So it had to be reset and that took me right back to the beginning. 
I surrender!
First, My apologies to Barry. After reading his post he indeed did not say "liar", and my post above was inaccurate when I said "Barry said "Liar" not me".
I reluctantly indulged the procedures listed previously (http://www.lovemyfire.com/inst...-on-kindle-fire.html) on two different Kindle devices in my home. They are 3rd Gen Kindle Fire HD 7" and a a 5th Gen Kindle Fire HD 8". The result on both devices was the same... It didn't work.
The Play store app failed to launch on both devices nor was the MTH DCS app able to purchase an upgrade. I also analyzed the internet traffic from my Kindles via my router and there was no attempt to even communicate with Google Play servers when an APP upgrade is requested from within the DCS App.
Both of my Kindle devices are limited to running the app in FREE mode only.
Huh !!?? All gobbledy Gook to me.
H1000,
Both of my Kindle devices are limited to running the app in FREE mode only.
As previously stated, that has been my experience exactly. However, I expect that that will be good enough to operate the DCS Explorer.
Barry Broskowitz posted:H1000,
Both of my Kindle devices are limited to running the app in FREE mode only.
As previously stated, that has been my experience exactly. However, I expect that that will be good enough to operate the DCS Explorer.
Barry, I'm seriously thinking of buying a wifi unit after the holidays and just wonder if it will control the track power like DCS remote does with a Z4K receiver plugged into the Z4K transformer?
Gene,
I'm seriously thinking of buying a wifi unit after the holidays and just wonder if it will control the track power like DCS remote does with a Z4K receiver plugged into the Z4K transformer?
Unfortunately, that isn’t possible.
The DCS App communicates via WiFi (2.4 GHz) with the WIU and the Z4000 receiver only uses 900 MHz. In order to talk to the Z4000 receiver, additional hardware would be required. MTH has indicated that, at the present time, that isn’t going to happen.
Some of you guys really need to get some user friendly shorts. Now I understand that things can get "bunched up" when we talk about technology, but HAVE YOU REALLY TRIED IT? I mean you can go up and down the line and think about "progress":
I don't want to dial the phone, I like talking to the operator.
I get better control over the car when I shift gears.
I miss paying a cash toll and don't want EZ Pass because big brother can track me.
You don't have to get up to change the station or volume on the TV?
What is that thing in the window that blows cold air?
And the best -- I don't have to stand at the transformer to play with my train?
Guys, I get the tactile feel of a remote rather that the screen of a tablet. But did you look at your transformer all the time before there were remotes? Could you walk around your layout and stop the crash before there were remotes? Give it a good try and put some effort into it. THEN if you don't like it, stock up on the handhelds. I'll have a few for sale.
Gerry
DCS remotes are included in the new MTH catalogue, so it appears that they should be available for a while.
irish rifle posted:DCS remotes are included in the new MTH catalogue, so it appears that they should be available for a while.
Im sure MTH feels they have adequate inventory as they make this transition.
Just because they stopped manufacturing the remote doesn't mean they will stop selling it immediately.
They may sell remotes for years to come...regardless if new ones are being made.
What a lot of fuss about nothing. The trains will run, remotes or not. The techno geeks waste their time and $$ on work-arounds- spend the time and $$ on your trains and layout. Today's technology will be junk tomorrow.
bigdodgetrain posted:i'm done with you two!
it works for me and that is all I care about.
It would help if you guys would be a bit more specific...
"Kindle Fire" - isn't a single device - there are a couple models, made over several years.
Earlier ones run a custom version of Android 2
Later they used a Android 4 build
MTH has said you need at least a 4.0 version of Android to run the app...
I suspect the guys that got it work are running a 4 version and the guys who didn't get it to work might have 2 version.
Barry Broskowitz posted:Gene,
I'm seriously thinking of buying a wifi unit after the holidays and just wonder if it will control the track power like DCS remote does with a Z4K receiver plugged into the Z4K transformer?
Unfortunately, that isn’t possible.
The DCS App communicates via WiFi (2.4 GHz) with the WIU and the Z4000 receiver only uses 900 MHz. In order to talk to the Z4000 receiver, additional hardware would be required. MTH has indicated that, at the present time, that isn’t going to happen.
Thank You Barry.
I stand with my earlier post. All this tech nonsense just to run a toy train, MTH is leaving most of the starter people in the dust.
Jim 1939 posted:I stand with my earlier post. All this tech nonsense just to run a toy train, MTH is leaving most of the starter people in the dust.
Why? All MTH trains work fine with a conventional transformer. Seems like they aren't leaving anyone in "the dust". Try that with a LionChief starter set.
Let me see if I have this right. No more remote means no more thumbwheel?? That's all the argument I need!!
Gerry, I'd give your post closer consideration but it's time for me to head off to the gym with my Sony Walkman.
I already posted once but now after reading all these posts I recognize that there are more then one group or generation running trains or are at the point of getting into trains. I will say again I am a Dinosaur but I have three levels of running, conventional , Legacy/TMCC and DCS. Okay point taken....remotes will not be made in the possible near future. So I am buying extras, my decision. I have been to a house where he ran his trains from a tablet and saw the tablet malfunction and had to start from square one. But my point is business in a way has to look to the future and future train operators who were born into the tech world are better adapt at this stuff. So be it. To me holding a remote in my hand is more comfortable then holding a bulky tablet. Also I have a cell phone, it is smart phone ( a lot smarter then me ) LOL but why would I want to be using my phone to run trains and and have a call come in. So what will be will be. Way back when we were all conventional and then remote control came along and for that we are better off. In the future it will just be a mixed bag of operating trains.............Life and the world moves on............Paul
paul 2 posted:. Also I have a cell phone, it is smart phone ( a lot smarter then me ) LOL but why would I want to be using my phone to run trains and and have a call come in.
Not this again - the answer is - you're really not expected to use your everyday phone to run this system.
Get a dedicated tablet or phone!
While I'm at it - let's shoot down another notion that the Neo-Luddites keep repeating...
You don't need a contract or cell service...somehow people can't figure out that a cell phone can exist or be useful without a cell contract or service.
StraightTalk has refurbished phones for 10 bucks - sometimes Free with postage.
https://shop.straighttalk.com/...-z793c-reconditioned
Android 4.4, KitKat
Just for interest, slot car type racing is now being done without physical remotes of any sort. Anki's sets require some sort of smart device.
https://www.anki.com/en-us/overdrive
Nonetheless, I think it's a mistake to not have some sort of controller present in a $400 set. If I bought a Subaru and had to make sure I had a smart device to access the radio and other music, it would not amuse me .
Roving Sign posted:You don't need a contract or cell service...somehow people can't figure out that a cell phone can exist or be useful without a cell contract or service.paul 2 posted:. Also I have a cell phone, it is smart phone ( a lot smarter then me ) LOL but why would I want to be using my phone to run trains and and have a call come in.
Exactly. My old iPhone 4 is now in use exclusively as the "ipod" in my truck. It sits in the glove box to where I ran the USB cable from the back of my head unit.
I use another old non-phone iPhone as my DCS and Lionel App remote.
As Roving says, if you want to give it a try, go buy a refurbished smart phone for $10-$40 and give it a whirl.
On my layout, the way I run things depends on my mood that day. Sometimes I use the handles of my ZW-C, sometimes I just run Legacy from the Legacy remote, sometimes I use the DCS Remote to run everything including my TMCC/Legacy, and most days I am using the DCS app.
You guys don't want to use the remote, that's fine. Why does it sound like you're badgering the ones that want the remote?
Have you tried to run trains outside in the sun with your phone or tablet????
Engineer-Joe posted:You guys don't want to use the remote, that's fine. Why does it sound like you're badgering the ones that want the remote?
Have you tried to run trains outside in the sun with your phone or tablet????
I think running trains outdoors isn't something most operators do...
That said - I'm a sound engineer - and run my PA/mixer with a phone/tablet - and yes, it's just fine in the sun - crank up the brightness!
Roving Sign posted:Engineer-Joe posted:You guys don't want to use the remote, that's fine. Why does it sound like you're badgering the ones that want the remote?
Have you tried to run trains outside in the sun with your phone or tablet????
I think running trains outdoors isn't something most operators do...
That said - I'm a sound engineer - and run my PA/mixer with a phone/tablet - and yes, it's just fine in the sun - crank up the brightness!
Well, maybe not "outdoors" but, our layout is upstairs, and with 5 big double windows (primarily facing south), we obviously prefer the various hand held controllers from MTH and Lionel.
I'm a little confused about some of the business logic behind all this. I understand about obsolescence, planned and otherwise, but I look back at all of the reports about geezers like us being the backbone of the hobby and I sort of lose the bubble about MTHs decision to alienate such a large segment of the hobby. Put another way, the millennials understand and are comfortable with the new technology, but they don't seem to be flocking towards train stores or train shows. If part of MTHs plan is to make the hobby more attractive to the post-Boomer generations, I can't help but wonder if maybe there's a better way to do so than a new control system.
Having said all that, I'm in a wait and see mode right now. I run both TMCC/Legacy as well as DCS and, candidly, I'm not real wild about the idea of MTH eliminating remotes because I'm comfortable with the handhelds. I don't have a smart phone, although my wife and son do, but I will undoubtedly have to yield (grudgingly) to progress at some point ... just as I'm slowly accepting the fact that the days of my flip phone are numbered. It seems to me that I either accept the inevitable or my MTH engines will become shelf queens.
I use both the DCS app and the DCS Remote it depends on what strikes my fancy, and for the few Lionel Engines, I use the Legacy system. I do have a lot of the Newer technology in my house, the Nest Thermostat, Nest Protect, and Philips Hue Lightbulbs. I do intend on getting either an iPad(only one that will run the LCS app, because for some reason Lionel didn't right and Android app for that), or an Android Tablet, which can run both DCS or LionChief(though I have none that use this yet), depending on what train I am running, mainly confined to MTH Currently.
I am one of the younger ones in the hobby, I kind of get where they are coming from, and I am sure, if I would let my son run my more scale Locomotives, I can possibly see him using a smart device to run them, though he really doesn't use items like tablets or phones, he has one he can use at school, that he doesn't really use it that often.
Engineer-Joe posted:You guys don't want to use the remote, that's fine. Why does it sound like you're badgering the ones that want the remote?
Have you tried to run trains outside in the sun with your phone or tablet????
Joe,
I am not trying to badger anyone. I am just trying to give accurate information on the items needed, so people interested can make a decision based on how the system works. Also trying to calm a bit of the seeming hysteria about no DCS remotes. It's not going to happen for a long time. Heck, if all you have is an orignal TMCC system, you can still find good TMCC remotes for that.
As I said, I run the DCS remote as well, I have two of them. I also have my original TMCC system, and my Legacy system and remote.
As far as outside....like Roving said, I can run my iPhone or Ipad controlling X-32 or Presonus mixer just fine at outdoor festivals
Well?? Roving, I am a sound engineer too. I ran Midas consoles and prefer controlling faders over writing programs.
All that means nothing here. The phones and tablets I have don't show up in the sun. Yes the brightness is cranked. Maybe the consoles you speak of are in the shade?? Maybe they have better brightness? What does any of that have to do with running trains outside.
My blank is bigger than you blank is not what we are discussing. If you prefer the app then good for you. I use it too. I think a market will remain for the remote for years to come. How can I talk to MTH about that when you won't let me?
Barry Broskowitz posted:RRMAN,
You do not need to purchase a cellular plan to operate DCS using WiFi. You can use any iOS or Android, smartphone or tablet, with WiFi (not cellular) capability. No cellular or data plan is required.
Don't have any of those devices, so I'm going to have to live it out with the remotes. Our three grandsons were not interested in using their phone/pad/wifi, preferring the remotes. So there is some hope for the future generation ... ;-)
rtr12 posted:I too still like the DCS remote. Have been thinking about getting another one just in case? However, if you don't have a smart phone and might be thinking about one (or two)...
FWIW, T-Mobile has a deal for those of us over 55. Two phones, unlimited everything for $60 a month, no added fees or taxes. You have to sign up for auto pay to get the $60 a month, otherwise it's $70 for same deal and you pay monthly as most of us are accustomed to. I put the monthly charge on my Visa, I get cash back and I don't like anyone having access to my bank account.
My wife wanted an iphone and I was talking to the phone guy at Costco. He told me about the T-Mobile deal. Verizon was charging me $47 & change per month for one flip phone, 400 minutes, no data and no text. This was a week or two before the iphone 8 came out and Costco had the iphone 7 for $100 off. After learning all that, I got 2 iphones (the 7) and switched. The guy set me up and changed everything right there in Costso. So far, after about 3 months now, I have been very happy with T-Mobile and the iphones. Still learning to use the iphone, but they are very handy to have and I think I have now been converted.
Anyway, just something I ran across a few months ago and thought I would pass it on in case anyone was interested. It is really a pretty good deal. T-Mobile's coverage in the West and Rocky Mountain areas hasn't quite caught up to Verizon, but it's getting there. They cover the East and Midwest pretty well. So be sure to check the coverage in your area...'can you hear me now' type of thing.
I am in no way connected with Costco or T-Mobile either, just thought this was a good deal. I am sure you can get the phones anywhere and also the T-mobile service where ever it is offered.
And a oops, I should have also added what Barry posted above, you don't need smart phone service to use the app, just a smart device with wifi to run the app. I got carried away with the T-Mobile deal...
I have a stupid phone. It is wireless but only receives and makes calls at $0.25 a minute, on top of a $9.95 a month base charge. Keep it for emergency calls when out and about.
Engineer-Joe posted:Well?? Roving, I am a sound engineer too. I ran Midas consoles and prefer controlling faders over writing programs.
All that means nothing here. The phones and tablets I have don't show up in the sun. Yes the brightness is cranked. Maybe the consoles you speak of are in the shade?? Maybe they have better brightness? What does any of that have to do with running trains outside.
My blank is bigger than you blank is not what we are discussing. If you prefer the app then good for you. I use it too. I think a market will remain for the remote for years to come. How can I talk to MTH about that when you won't let me?
Oh - for sure...In many cases - I do prefer the physical fader...for soundmixing.
Try keeping up with a bluegrass band as they all take a quick solo on tablet...it can be done - but not as easily as you can just by moving a fader up and down.
That's why I've suggested we'll eventually see physical controllers that work with the DCS phone/wi-fi system...just like we have in the audio world.
When I run the fader-less XR18 - the tablet is nice - but they make the X-Touch - which allows you to add physical faders.
Jim Pastorius and Jim 1939,
Well, I find myself in agreement with you and some of the other posters that have suggested that "the tail has started to wag the dog." I think it was inevitable when electronics started to invade both O Gauge and O Scale. Don't get me wrong, there have been advantages, but maybe we are approaching the "wall" for the average hobbyist. I once knew two gentlemen, one worked for Storage Technology, the other for Seagate. They both said repeatedly that when computer technology hits the stores, it's already obsolete. There will always be more "better" down the line. It's the nature of the business, "Buy better! Replace that old phone! Upgrade that Computer, Today! This new camera has 47 new features!" I think the answer is already collectively before us. There will always be some in our hobby who are fascinated with the electronics side and tinkering around with the limits of animation. Good for you! Just as there will always be hobbyists who just want to sit back and watch the trains go by. Good for you! And there will be some, like me, who switch most of the stuff off and run in the most simple mode I can. Good for me! Let me tell you, a lot of these train shows I go to, with all the animation and sound cranked to maximum, leave me deaf, wheezing, and crazy after a couple of hours and desperate to get away. When I walk outside, the comparative silence is deafening....and breathing in the fresh smog.....well, need I say more?
So I suspect this is all going to be just fine. If MTH does discontinue handhelds (a likely scenario), then there will be a surplus on the after market as others rush to upgrade to the new, improved whatever. Eventually, someone will bring forth an aftermarket device that fills the void. It's happened before. The more things change..... As for me....well, other than basic functions (speed, direction, lights, etc.), it will be okay as I will disengage or just rip the stuff out for something more simple as it will all become obsolete very quickly anyway, it's the nature of electronics. For me it's about a better built, scaled, detailed, and painted model that will operate on the track, be it 2 rail or 3.....and just some plain old fun.
Roving Sign posted:While I'm at it - let's shoot down another notion that the Neo-Luddites keep repeating...
You don't need a contract or cell service...somehow people can't figure out that a cell phone can exist or be useful without a cell contract or service.
Well Roving Sign, glad you are a cell phone engineer and clarified this. Us Neo-Luddites probably don't know whats inside our cell phone other than the cell receiver and transmitter on one frequency, and maybe the camera stuff. Apparently some phones have the additional WIFI transmitter/receiver on another frequency, and even bluetooth on a third frequency, all squirting out one tiny antenna. But you would have to ask the phone vendor which of their phones have WIFI. Since we keep saying you have to download the app, doesn't that automatically imply you need the cell phone air time contract to download from Googlestore or Itunes stores??
Please enlighten us knuckle dragging stone age users.
rrman posted:Roving Sign posted:While I'm at it - let's shoot down another notion that the Neo-Luddites keep repeating...
You don't need a contract or cell service...somehow people can't figure out that a cell phone can exist or be useful without a cell contract or service.
Well Roving Sign, glad you are a cell phone engineer and clarified this. Us Neo-Luddites probably don't know whats inside our cell phone other than the cell receiver and transmitter on one frequency, and maybe the camera stuff. Apparently some phones have the additional WIFI transmitter/receiver on another frequency, and even bluetooth on a third frequency, all squirting out one tiny antenna. But you would have to ask the phone vendor which of their phones have WIFI. Since we keep saying you have to download the app, doesn't that automatically imply you need the cell phone air time contract to download from Googlestore or Itunes stores??
Please enlighten us knuckle dragging stone age users.
I don't think I'd be going out on a limb to declare - every modern smartphone has wi-fi, cell and bluetooth.
Can't say they use the same antenna - I doubt that's the case.
When it comes to tablets - they ALL have wi-fi...some have cell support - which is not necessary in our pursuits...don't waste money on a tablet with cell tech.
All you need is a wi-fi internet connection and a Google account to download the app - you DON'T NEED CELL SERVICE!!!
Computers, Phones and Tablets all use wi-fi the same way...it's all the same internet.
Roving Sign posted:rrman posted:Roving Sign posted:While I'm at it - let's shoot down another notion that the Neo-Luddites keep repeating...
You don't need a contract or cell service...somehow people can't figure out that a cell phone can exist or be useful without a cell contract or service.
Well Roving Sign, glad you are a cell phone engineer and clarified this. Us Neo-Luddites probably don't know whats inside our cell phone other than the cell receiver and transmitter on one frequency, and maybe the camera stuff. Apparently some phones have the additional WIFI transmitter/receiver on another frequency, and even bluetooth on a third frequency, all squirting out one tiny antenna. But you would have to ask the phone vendor which of their phones have WIFI. Since we keep saying you have to download the app, doesn't that automatically imply you need the cell phone air time contract to download from Googlestore or Itunes stores??
Please enlighten us knuckle dragging stone age users.
I don't think I'd be going out on a limb to declare - every modern smartphone has wi-fi, cell and bluetooth.
Can't say they use the same antenna - I doubt that's the case.
When it comes to tablets - they ALL have wi-fi...some have cell support - which is not necessary in our pursuits...don't waste money on a tablet with cell tech.
All you need is a wi-fi internet connection and a Google account to download the app - you DON'T NEED CELL SERVICE!!!
Computers, Phones and Tablets all use wi-fi the same way...it's all the same internet.
Thank you!
I could see why some think that a phone or tablet must have an active contract for service. I have an older smart phone that I switch the WIFI on or off as needed. I find that it connects better and runs perfect on the MTH network.
I too am a dinosaur with the most modern electronics. I have some good background with equipment that helps me with forward thinking though.
Maybe that's why I was so optimistic when I heard about Bluetooth. I'm not sure I'll ever get to use it with my trains. I really liked the thought of talking straight to each engine and maybe broadcasting sounds for larger room surround speakers. Until then I'll just watch Willy Gee's stuff.
Run your trains just once with a smart phone or iPad and you will never want to use that clunky DCS remote ever again. The running experience is so much better with a phone/iPad it is almost impossible to describe.
No remotes, no iphone, ipad, blue tooth etc, just a steady hand on the transormer.
There's always one.
OGR Webmaster posted:Run your trains just once with a smart phone or iPad and you will never want to use that clunky DCS remote ever again. The running experience is so much better with a phone/iPad it is almost impossible to describe.
So Rich, please explain how you keep you eyes on the layout while trying to rub the throttle and/or brake icons up and down and find the horn/whistle wihout any landmarks??? It must be me, but when I look somewhere else my concentration breaks from what I was doing.
Unfortunately there is nobody in my Iowa area that has a MTH WIFI setup, even our "local" (50+ miles away) MTH dealer won't touch it. People on the Eastern side of the Mississippi closer to the east coast are more likely to have friends/clubs that have invested in WIFI, and can sing praises for it. Until I see and feel this WIFI to be convinced, I will just have to clunk along with my remotes. It took awhile for me to invest $500 for the TIU setups but only after I had seen, touched, run, asked 10K questions.
As Martye above said "Opinions are just that. Listen, ponder, and decide for yourself."
$500 for a TIU set up !! Ouch ! too much for my thin purse. And cost of all these new technical wonders isn't even mentioned.
Speak for yourself, Rich.
jim pastorius posted:$500 for a TIU set up !! Ouch ! too much for my thin purse. And cost of all these new technical wonders isn't even mentioned.
Jim,
I can't remember the exact cost other than it shot my train budget for the year more or less. It was for TIU and two AIU and spare remote, plus rewiring layout and adding magic light bulbs etc. Couda been more, couda been less. I just felt like I was stepping off the edge investing in something totally new with no assurance it would work on the layout without major headaches......
My personal thoughts on this:
I currently have four handheld remotes -- two for DCS and two for Legacy/TMCC. For now, they are fine.
But I can take a hint. The future is screen control of both systems. Roger at Trainworx has one working in the shop, and the next time I go to the metroplex I'll test-drive one and see how I like it.
In the early 2000's, the railroad furnished me a Blackberry phone. I hated it. So, when I retired on the last day of 2007, I got the most basic flip-phone. That was fine until our six children began getting iPhones and wanting to connect with us in ways other than voice phone calls. So, I reluctantly got an iPhone, and was surprised that I did not hate it. I am not on it all the time, but I have found it to be quite useful in many ways. I will probably buy the interfaces for both systems and use the phone to iPad (yes, I gave in and got one of those too) to control the trains.
I like for the trains to run realistically, slow starts and stops, sometimes complicated maneuvers to get to and from the yard and engine facility, etc. That will probably work well with screen-control. Currently I control my switches with DCS and it takes a lot of time to leave train control and go to switch control, dial up the switch number, activate the switch, and then go back to train control. As an Engineer in the 1970's, I waited for Switchmen to stroll up to the switch, line it, and then give me a signal to move. I don't really want quite that much realism.
#90, I find activating switches with the app is just as slow, but when running gets hot & heavy, I have been known to have a remote in each hand, with one on the switch list and the other running trains, while grandkids are using other remotes to run trains.
I remember reading an article in a magazine about buying and setting up one of these systems and the prices shocked me. Just no way !! To me and my interest in the hobby the engines, cars and track are the important part and to watch them run. All the rest of this stuff is just a sideshow. What is realistic about a slow starting steam engine with a screen ?? The real engineers didn't use them. One day in a hobby shop I watched an old retired PRR engineer, who ran passenger trains east out of Pgh, demonstrate how he would start a train on the curve at the Greensburg station without jolting the passengers. One hand on that long handled throttle and the other on the brake. The guy was an artist. No pad, no computer, no rubber tires just his training and smarts. Play with your moonbeam control systems but don't knock the old ways.
jim pastorius posted:Play with your moonbeam control systems but don't knock the old ways.
I agree but it goes both ways.
That being said I prefer the remote to a Smart Device but realize that the technology is changing. I think it's in the best interest to keep costs down that most of the manufacturers with control systems will go to 3rd party hardware and just make software updates.
Hello #90
To get to the switch fast (I have 3 AIU's for switches only). Go to the list, push the number on the list and operate. You don't have to scroll the list if you know the number you want, I have a diagram on the wall with the numbers. The app only list five at a time I think, and then the print is way to small, I used an Ipad mini. Now just the remote . After over three months of the ipad I gave up. I run multiable trains on one loop and a lot of switching and peddling freight.
clem
So far this has been an interesting thread with thoughtful pros and cons. Hope it continues and doesn't derail or degenerate.
One thing of note is Clem saying he gave up things too small. Gotta remember us oldsters don't have the 20-20 eyesight of our youth. One reason I moved fro HO and N to O is readability and larger everything for my less than steady 70yo hands 
jim pastorius posted:$500 for a TIU set up !! Ouch ! too much for my thin purse. And cost of all these new technical wonders isn't even mentioned.
I think that's MSRP price. A buddy of mine bought a New TIU & WIU for $270 on a Black Friday deal. He didn't need any of the $180 (MSRP) DCS remotes because he had junk drawer with about four old smart phones looking for a new purpose. If one had to add the $25 premium app, you are still under $300 for the entire setup.
It seems there are a handful of established DCS users who don't care to have this new stuff. I don't think MTH needs to market new DCS control technology to already established users. If they want it, great! If not, who cares. I suspect that the current stock DCS remote may outlive many of these users anyhow. Subtract 40 - 50 years from your age, and you might sing a different tune. That's the age group MTH wants to entice.
If anything they (MTH) are seeing a nifty profit right now with the mad rush of "doomsday preppers" who are buying the DCS remotes in a hording fashion. What a great way to boost sales and clear out old stock!
Knock 40 yrs off my age and I was putting two kids through college on a cash basis. No trains!
jim pastorius posted:Knock 40 yrs off my age and I was putting two kids through college on a cash basis. No trains!
$300 is a drop in the ocean compare to college today. Kind of a sad reality about the cost of education now days!
Its not that I don't like the app, I really like to move forward in tech stuff, Its just that the touchscreen doesn't work for me or all the scrolling through screens. When selecting the switches I have to scroll through all thirty on the remote or the iPad. There is no keyboard to select by number on the iPad, and no way to make the list longer or text larger. Every body operates different. Thats why for some the app is the way to go but for me its the remote. I really wanted the app to work, after all I did buy it and a refurbished iPad. Now I'm considering selling my wifi setup and iPad.
Clem
H1000 posted:jim pastorius posted:Knock 40 yrs off my age and I was putting two kids through college on a cash basis. No trains!
$300 is a drop in the ocean compare to college today. Kind of a sad reality about the cost of education now days!
I too, much prefer the remote.
Also, the cost of a college education today is more than sad- it's a national disgrace.
Jerry
SDIV Tim posted:
Barry and H1000, bigdodgetrain got it to work from his Amazon kindle Fire after he jumped the holes to get it to work with the premium 24.99 app. Legacy works everything but the Start up and Shut Down button doesn’t.
I didn't see anything in that video that indicated he was running the Premium or Standard app. As Barry and I have both stated, you can install the DCS app by manually copying the APK installer to device, I nor he dispute this as we have both done this.
The problem occurs when you try to connect to Google Play servers to purchase an upgrade. This limits the Kindle to running FREE versions of the app only. If you can get the DCS App to be FULLY (I can't emphasize this word enough) functional on the Kindle, then you have peaked my interest. I would want to see extremely specific procedures on how to bypass the road blocks of a getting the Google Play apps and service working properly on the Kindle to allow the app upgrades to be purchased or synced with your current google play account. The procedures listed previously didn't work on either of my Kindle devices.
I see the Kindle as a device that can run the DCS Explorer fully or the WIU in the FREE only version of the app.
H1000 posted:SDIV Tim posted:
Barry and H1000, bigdodgetrain got it to work from his Amazon kindle Fire after he jumped the holes to get it to work with the premium 24.99 app. Legacy works everything but the Start up and Shut Down button doesn’t.
I didn't see anything in that video that indicated he was running the Premium or Standard app. As Barry and I have both stated, you can install the DCS app by manually copying the APK installer to device, I nor he dispute this as we have both done this.
The problem occurs when you try to connect to Google Play servers to purchase an upgrade. This limits the Kindle to running FREE versions of the app only. If you can get the DCS App to be FULLY (I can't emphasize this word enough) functional on the Kindle, then you have peaked my interest. I would want to see extremely specific procedures on how to bypass the road blocks of a getting the Google Play apps and service working properly on the Kindle to allow the app upgrades to be purchased or synced with your current google play account. The procedures listed previously didn't work on either of my Kindle devices.
I see the Kindle as a device that can run the DCS Explorer fully or the WIU in the FREE only version of the app.
You cant get this screen with the basic. That Loco is a Lionel Legacy ES44AC
SDIV Tim posted:H1000 posted:SDIV Tim posted:
Barry and H1000, bigdodgetrain got it to work from his Amazon kindle Fire after he jumped the holes to get it to work with the premium 24.99 app. Legacy works everything but the Start up and Shut Down button doesn’t.
I didn't see anything in that video that indicated he was running the Premium or Standard app. As Barry and I have both stated, you can install the DCS app by manually copying the APK installer to device, I nor he dispute this as we have both done this.
The problem occurs when you try to connect to Google Play servers to purchase an upgrade. This limits the Kindle to running FREE versions of the app only. If you can get the DCS App to be FULLY (I can't emphasize this word enough) functional on the Kindle, then you have peaked my interest. I would want to see extremely specific procedures on how to bypass the road blocks of a getting the Google Play apps and service working properly on the Kindle to allow the app upgrades to be purchased or synced with your current google play account. The procedures listed previously didn't work on either of my Kindle devices.
I see the Kindle as a device that can run the DCS Explorer fully or the WIU in the FREE only version of the app.
You cant get this screen with the basic. That Loco is a Lionel Legacy ES44AC
Again, I need to see extremely specific procedures on how this was performed, the procedures listed previously did not work on my kindles. I willing to give it another shot but I am tired of wasting my time on this. If I am having this much trouble with it, why would anyone else want this headache?
Also, can anyone guarantee that Amazon or Google will not release updates (automatic or otherwise) that will break this functionality? As Amazon pushes it own App store they sure don't want people picking up cheap Kindles only to use Google's Play store and not purchase anything from Amazon.
H1000 posted:
If I am having this much trouble with it, why would anyone else want this headache?Also, can anyone guarantee that Amazon or Google will not release updates (automatic or otherwise) that will break this functionality? As Amazon pushes it own App store they sure don't want people picking up cheap Kindles only to use Google's Play store and not purchase anything from Amazon.
SDIV Tim posted:
Well I’m done dealing with this you, don’t get it and your doing this to give me and him a hard time
Tim, These are valid questions when one suggests a "hack" as a solution.
I don't find it advisable to suggest to anyone that they "hack" their device as a permanent solution. Some of these procedures that involve hacking the Kindle can cause irreversible damage and may "brick" the device.
I think this may work if one would "root" the Kindle, but I am not even willing to do that to mine own considering the possible consequences and number of extremely cheap android devices available today.
Again,I think it may be possible, and if you guys got it working, great! I can't reproduce your results and the instructions provided don't work on my devices. If you did something slightly different, I am will to try it again.
I don't mean to disrespect anyone here, but when we post information, we need to be responsible so that it won't damage someones property or lead them down a confusing path that leaves them with non-working device.
H1000 posted:If I am having this much trouble with it, why would anyone else want this headache?
Also, can anyone guarantee that Amazon or Google will not release updates (automatic or otherwise) that will break this functionality? As Amazon pushes it own App store they sure don't want people picking up cheap Kindles only to use Google's Play store and not purchase anything from Amazon.
Well I’m done dealing with this you, don’t get it and your doing this to give me and him a hard time
Tim, These are valid questions when one suggests a "hack" as a solution.
I don't find it advisable to suggest to anyone that they "hack" their device as a permanent solution. Some of these procedures that involve hacking the Kindle can cause irreversible damage and may "brick" the device.
I think this may work if one would "root" the Kindle, but I am not even willing to do that to mine own considering the possible consequences and number of extremely cheap android devices available today.
Yes - not sure why people are pursuing this - Fire OS is not supported.
Just because you can get it work - doesn't mean its good solution.
H1000 posted:SDIV Tim posted:H1000 posted:SDIV Tim posted:
Barry and H1000, bigdodgetrain got it to work from his Amazon kindle Fire after he jumped the holes to get it to work with the premium 24.99 app. Legacy works everything but the Start up and Shut Down button doesn’t.
I didn't see anything in that video that indicated he was running the Premium or Standard app. As Barry and I have both stated, you can install the DCS app by manually copying the APK installer to device, I nor he dispute this as we have both done this.
The problem occurs when you try to connect to Google Play servers to purchase an upgrade. This limits the Kindle to running FREE versions of the app only. If you can get the DCS App to be FULLY (I can't emphasize this word enough) functional on the Kindle, then you have peaked my interest. I would want to see extremely specific procedures on how to bypass the road blocks of a getting the Google Play apps and service working properly on the Kindle to allow the app upgrades to be purchased or synced with your current google play account. The procedures listed previously didn't work on either of my Kindle devices.
I see the Kindle as a device that can run the DCS Explorer fully or the WIU in the FREE only version of the app.
You cant get this screen with the basic. That Loco is a Lionel Legacy ES44AC
Again, I need to see extremely specific procedures on how this was performed, the procedures listed previously did not work on my kindles. I willing to give it another shot but I am tired of wasting my time on this. If I am having this much trouble with it, why would anyone else want this headache?
Also, can anyone guarantee that Amazon or Google will not release updates (automatic or otherwise) that will break this functionality? As Amazon pushes it own App store they sure don't want people picking up cheap Kindles only to use Google's Play store and not purchase anything from Amazon.
Did you bother to check what version of the OS you have?
The older Fires have an Android 2 build - that won't work ever.
More recent models are built off a 4 series Android - and might work.
I am one of the remaining Luddites when it comes to "Smart" phones. This weekend, I assisted another club @the SMR show to setup a MU with PS3 using WiFi. Never had even seen it before; yet we slogged through and had the MU running in just few minutes.
If I can do it, anyone can. February 1, 2018 I just may have to look into getting one of those flat screened contraptions.
Roving Sign posted:H1000 posted:SDIV Tim posted:H1000 posted:SDIV Tim posted:
Barry and H1000, bigdodgetrain got it to work from his Amazon kindle Fire after he jumped the holes to get it to work with the premium 24.99 app. Legacy works everything but the Start up and Shut Down button doesn’t.
I didn't see anything in that video that indicated he was running the Premium or Standard app. As Barry and I have both stated, you can install the DCS app by manually copying the APK installer to device, I nor he dispute this as we have both done this.
The problem occurs when you try to connect to Google Play servers to purchase an upgrade. This limits the Kindle to running FREE versions of the app only. If you can get the DCS App to be FULLY (I can't emphasize this word enough) functional on the Kindle, then you have peaked my interest. I would want to see extremely specific procedures on how to bypass the road blocks of a getting the Google Play apps and service working properly on the Kindle to allow the app upgrades to be purchased or synced with your current google play account. The procedures listed previously didn't work on either of my Kindle devices.
I see the Kindle as a device that can run the DCS Explorer fully or the WIU in the FREE only version of the app.
You cant get this screen with the basic. That Loco is a Lionel Legacy ES44AC
Again, I need to see extremely specific procedures on how this was performed, the procedures listed previously did not work on my kindles. I willing to give it another shot but I am tired of wasting my time on this. If I am having this much trouble with it, why would anyone else want this headache?
Also, can anyone guarantee that Amazon or Google will not release updates (automatic or otherwise) that will break this functionality? As Amazon pushes it own App store they sure don't want people picking up cheap Kindles only to use Google's Play store and not purchase anything from Amazon.
Did you bother to check what version of the OS you have?
The older Fires have an Android 2 build - that won't work ever.
More recent models are built off a 4 series Android - and might work.
The DCS app wouldn't launch if your were using Android 2.0 (or version 3), I can get the DCS app to launch. My Kindles were built in 2013 & 2015, well after the release of version 4.
Order a couple of thumbwheels. That's what wears out first.
Wow....we certainly are making this entire thing much more complicated than it needs to be.
As far as phone and tablet makers updating their OS versions that may "break" the Lionel or DCS apps, that is a totally normal thing in this world. You don't have to update your phone just because an update is available. Wait to update until you know the makers of the Apps you use have tested and announced the App is ready for a new OS.
As I know Roving Sign can attest to: Same really goes in our music world. Apple just released OSX High Sierra. Yet I, an many others who use our Macs in music production and performance haven't upgraded yet. Why? Because not all of the companies that make my music apps (VST/AU/Interfaces) have certified yet that they are done testing.
Apps and Operating systems are never going to remain in stasis. As bugs are discovered, new features added or needed, companies will update. If you get a notification that a new operating system is available for your device/computer, it is incumbent upon you to make sure your necessary apps will run on the updated OS.
I did the same thing when iOS 11 was released. I had to make sure my apps would be okay before updating my iPhone.
As far as DCS and Lionel Apps.... as long as the companies are supporting the app, there will be updates.
I know a lot of people are new to the OS/APP world, so my message here is in no way meant to be condescending or belittling. Just informative. The nature of Apps is that non thought of bugs sometimes are discovered after release. The developers work on it, then release version 1.1, then 1.2...major upgrade may then get Version 2.0..then 2.1.
If you are new to the App store/Google app store, Android store.... just scrolls thru all the things available and unless brand new, almost every app will be several updates down the road.
Finally, the companies and developers have to decide which platforms they want to release an App for. In this case, they decided Android and iOS were the most widely used, and most cost effective to put their developers on those.
If you have the knowledge to hack together something to make an app work on a non supported device, go for it. The fact it's not easy or fully functional is not a problem with the app.
Finally, as most of us have said, run your trains the way you want. Hand held remotes are still plentiful.
All I am saying is don't dismiss the paradigm of device/wifi usage out of hand based on conjecture and quasi-incorrect information.
I ran my trains from the handles last night. It was fun. I may fire up the wifi and use my iPad tonight...who knows?
Most of all....have fun and go run your trains!
Wow, what an interesting diverse set of opinions. This thread is similar to so many others regarding the evolution and integration of technology into our hobby. Similar discussions I'm sure can be found on automobile owner forums regarding "Infotainment" systems without buttons on newer cars vs radios on old. To get the most utility out of infotainment systems you need a tablet phone (I think the term "Smartphone" turns non tablet phone owner off since it implies that they aren't smart). Historically, technology helps sell and improve new consumer products and MTH, not unlike many successful businesses, has effectively embraced technological changes in their products.
I have two DCS remotes that have broken thumb wheels and thus are useless to me. I know I could fix them but not unlike those who don't want to replace the battery in their DCS engines, I don't need another "fixing project". I've been using the DCS app since it became available. While I totally agree that physical buttons are easier to operate without looking, I still enjoy operating and managing my layout with DCS via the app. I hope that future versions of the app will allow users to customize what and where functions are located on the 'home' page of the app. I have a home theater control app (Logitech Harmony) that logically lets me control the amplifier volume from the volume buttons on my tablet/phone. I've been a smart, I mean tablet/phone user since 2008. So I am already familiar with using, loading, updating apps. Yes, its not as simple as the remote. Once the track power is on, I have to go to my phone or tablet settings, switch to the DCS Wifi (since typically I'm connected to my house wifi). Then I launch the app, press "run my trains", then refresh engine list if necessary, select a engine, then start it up. The DCS remote has almost the same # of steps and I could have a dedicated phone or tablet to use as a remote which would reduce steps. I do not think the DCS app is intended nor ideal for brand new tablet/phone users.
That said I agree that the future of DCS controlled trains is via an app that will improve and easily be updated on my phone or tablet. I've been an O gauge collector/operator since the late 90's and I (and my sons) have enjoyed the improved control, sound and features digital control has added. These features make the trains more exciting and interesting to operate especially to people who are new or haven't visited the hobby in a decade or so. When I do train shows, visitors young and old are amazed that they can control multiple trains on the same or different tracks from from anywhere around the layout with an app on their tablet/phone. Some new consumer systems/devices/appliances can only be controlled via a downloaded app (my home theater control system for example). So I agree with MTH to focus on control apps instead of controllers. Ten years ago most cars didn't have a navigation system. In ten years most cars will rely on the drivers phone/tablet for content on the infotainment screen. By then most O gauge operators will use a tablet/phone to access and control the features of their digital command trains and layouts.
Number 90 posted:...... In the early 2000's, the railroad furnished me a Blackberry phone. I hated it. So, when I retired on the last day of 2007, I got the most basic flip-phone. That was fine until our six children began getting iPhones and wanting to connect with us in ways other than voice phone calls. So, I reluctantly got an iPhone, and was surprised that I did not hate it. I am not on it all the time, but I have found it to be quite useful in many ways. I will probably buy the interfaces for both systems and use the phone to iPad (yes, I gave in and got one of those too) to control the trains.
I also finally got iphones for my wife and myself about 3 months ago, retired my old flip phone. Reasons were very similar to yours (and my wife wanted one). I don't think I've made but one or two actual phone calls, but I have used it for a ton of other stuff that I didn't know I was needing (or missing) until I got the iphones. I have been quite surprised by the number of uses I have found so far.
I do have the DCS wifi and have used it some. However, I still prefer the DCS and Legacy remotes on a regular basis. I am coming around somewhat and realize that I'll probably have to switch one of these days. Not sure I will add the Lionel wifi, but you never know?
I do think MTH might be a little premature on discontinuing the remotes? It still seems like there are quite a few that prefer the remotes, but I have no idea about their internal workings and maybe there is much more to it than we know, such as costs, obsolete parts, problems adding future features, design changes etc. I also suppose it is impossible to keep everyone happy all at the same time. That quite a tall order for anyone!!
I spoke with Andy Edelman at Trainfest in Milwaukee a few weeks back on this topic and he indicated that he expected this current production to meet demand for a couple of years. He also said there was a possibility of another production run, if component parts were still available. No promises on that though.
Still I bought my back up remote and TIU on Monday.
Just to make sure I've spent too much time thinking about this - I took a stab at installing the Linux based - AndroidX86 operating system running on a PC - just to see if I could get the DCS app to install and run.
While I have some Linux chops - this AndroidX86 distro is still more of a project - and wasn't the easiest thing to get installed.
I tried a few different PCs - in the end - I could only get the 32 bit version to boot on my 64 bit PC - The web browser and YouTube worked as they should - but the Google Play Store would always crash.
I did get as far as seeing the MTH app and clicking install...but that's it - CRASH.
I had to use Ethernet - Wi-fi was unreliable - that I could probably fix - but the Play Store crash is above my pay grade...
Too bad - if this OS was as easy to install as Linux Mint or the other big distros - this might have some potential...for geeky operators.
As it is now - I think you'd need some serious Linux Kung Fu to make it work...maybe.
It was worth a shot!
Obsidian posted:Wow, what an interesting diverse set of opinions. This thread is similar to so many others regarding the evolution and integration of technology into our hobby. Similar discussions I'm sure can be found on automobile owner forums regarding "Infotainment" systems without buttons on newer cars vs radios on old. To get the most utility out of infotainment systems you need a tablet phone (I think the term "Smartphone" turns non tablet phone owner off since it implies that they aren't smart). Historically, technology helps sell and improve new consumer products and MTH, not unlike many successful businesses, has effectively embraced technological changes in their products.
I have two DCS remotes that have broken thumb wheels and thus are useless to me. I know I could fix them but not unlike those who don't want to replace the battery in their DCS engines, I don't need another "fixing project". I've been using the DCS app since it became available. While I totally agree that physical buttons are easier to operate without looking, I still enjoy operating and managing my layout with DCS via the app. I hope that future versions of the app will allow users to customize what and where functions are located on the 'home' page of the app. I have a home theater control app (Logitech Harmony) that logically lets me control the amplifier volume from the volume buttons on my tablet/phone. I've been a smart, I mean tablet/phone user since 2008. So I am already familiar with using, loading, updating apps. Yes, its not as simple as the remote. Once the track power is on, I have to go to my phone or tablet settings, switch to the DCS Wifi (since typically I'm connected to my house wifi). Then I launch the app, press "run my trains", then refresh engine list if necessary, select a engine, then start it up. The DCS remote has almost the same # of steps and I could have a dedicated phone or tablet to use as a remote which would reduce steps. I do not think the DCS app is intended nor ideal for brand new tablet/phone users.
That said I agree that the future of DCS controlled trains is via an app that will improve and easily be updated on my phone or tablet. I've been an O gauge collector/operator since the late 90's and I (and my sons) have enjoyed the improved control, sound and features digital control has added. These features make the trains more exciting and interesting to operate especially to people who are new or haven't visited the hobby in a decade or so. When I do train shows, visitors young and old are amazed that they can control multiple trains on the same or different tracks from from anywhere around the layout with an app on their tablet/phone. Some new consumer systems/devices/appliances can only be controlled via a downloaded app (my home theater control system for example). So I agree with MTH to focus on control apps instead of controllers. Ten years ago most cars didn't have a navigation system. In ten years most cars will rely on the drivers phone/tablet for content on the infotainment screen. By then most O gauge operators will use a tablet/phone to access and control the features of their digital command trains and layouts.
Hello Obsidian; We, at the Foley Railroad Museum, would gladly accept your broken remotes as a donation to the museum. We would repair them and use them for years to come. Our Museum is open to the public three days a week. Admission is free. We plan to continue operating our layout with the remotes. Thanks for your consideration.
With 9 DCS remotes, two TMCC Cab1s, and 3 Legacy Cab2's, I can not be persuaded to purchase a WIFI connection for each of my 5 TIU's. It is not because I am against technology. Having been in the computer industry for 47 years (IBM 1401 & Van mounted 360-40 - 1969), I switched from main frames in 1982 when I could get COBOL to run on a PC. I can break into cars with wifi (because they are not secure) and I will not have that capability in my car; however, I replaced all but one vacuum gauge with electrical (ASPEN, L3, and Garmin) and I connect an Ipad, Ipad Mini (backup to the Ipad) for situational awareness (and ADS_B for traffic) in my airplane. I am never been against technology; however, one has to examine what are the features, how do they compare to features on existing technology and decide if this is worth the expense to upgrade. I do this each time I purchase an MTH or Lionel command controlled engine. In my case I do not see my trains running on my phone (I do have a backup to the backup on the phone in case everything else fails at 6000 feet.) My Ipad/ iPhone grandchildren are happy running the trains with a DCS or Legacy handheld. Count me as one to prefers the dedicated handheld devices.
I come late to the discussion, appalled to think that either MTH or Lionel would even consider eliminating the "hand-held". I've read as many of the postings as I can bear and only write to add my voice to those of others who have raised their voices in protest.
My railroad career began with a Lionel transformer handle in my hand and, after 40 years of 1:1 railroading, I'm back to the Lionel (or MTH) throttle and cannot conceive of operating anything by sliding my finger up or down a touchscreen.
I applauded the strides made by Lionel with TMCC, eagerly jumped on board with one of their CNW GP7 - TMCC kits, and I still prefer the Lionel handheld - it's more like a real throttle that that little MTH knob and it works better. Great stuff! I've never looked back!
Meanwhile, I have a heck of a time using my much resented "smartphone", my fingers are too big, too old, too fast, too slow, too warm, too cold, etc and I miss half my calls because I can't get the God forsaken thing to work.
Following generations may never know what its like to sit in an Engineer's seat, pull back on the throttle and pray for adhesion. There are kids who live in their mothers' basements and come to work in jeans and a T-shirt to operate drones that kill people in Iraq. Perhaps the next generation will operate trains that way, too. But then why would they model railroad, anyway, when they can railroad virtually with no muss, no fuss and no need to relinquish basement living space for a layout? I've seen a number of these "virtual" railroad videos on YouTube and think they're clever but totally unrealistic and unrewarding. There's no substitute for the real thing in any scale.
Obsidian posted:I have two DCS remotes that have broken thumb wheels and thus are useless to me. I know I could fix them but not unlike those who don't want to replace the battery in their DCS engines, I don't need another "fixing project". I've been using the DCS app since it became available. While I totally agree that physical buttons are easier to operate without looking, I still enjoy operating and managing my layout with DCS via the app. I hope that future versions of the app will allow users to customize what and where functions are located on the 'home' page of the app.
Seems if MTH had designed the remote with a select button in the empty location near the scroll wheel rather than using the scrolling thumbwheel to select something as well, most of the failures would not have happened. The "Out of Range", "Engine not on Track", etc., problems seem to be software issues rather than the hand held. As the DCS WiFi cannot control our Z4000's nor more than 1 TIU that makes it a non starter for many. (Haven't checked, is the Lionel WiFi still Apple only?) Remember when Lionel said the Cab1 couldn't be made anymore? Would be a small cost for MTH to fix the wheel issue. Many like their smart phones/tablets/ipads, etc and many love not having to look at the remote to do something as they can just feel where they are and need to be. Even if MTH stopped production there are a bunch of remotes out there already. Wonder how many car crashes have occurred with touch screen use rather than radio knobs?
Can anyone clarify: does this app only work for current or future engines that have a bluetooth connection built in, or will they work with my older P2/P3 engines? I.E.; is it like Lionchief, where the engines need to be equipped to work?
pdxtrains posted:Can anyone clarify: does this app only work for current or future engines that have a bluetooth connection built in, or will they work with my older P2/P3 engines? I.E.; is it like Lionchief, where the engines need to be equipped to work?
It'll run any ps2/3 engine.
Trainlover9943 posted:pdxtrains posted:Can anyone clarify: does this app only work for current or future engines that have a bluetooth connection built in, or will they work with my older P2/P3 engines? I.E.; is it like Lionchief, where the engines need to be equipped to work?
It'll run any ps2/3 engine.
Then this is a plus for me. No way was I going to ever lay out money for hardware--I consider myself a toy train collector and I buy a great many starter sets. I will happily use the app.
pdxtrains posted:Trainlover9943 posted:pdxtrains posted:Can anyone clarify: does this app only work for current or future engines that have a bluetooth connection built in, or will they work with my older P2/P3 engines? I.E.; is it like Lionchief, where the engines need to be equipped to work?
It'll run any ps2/3 engine.
Then this is a plus for me. No way was I going to ever lay out money for hardware--I consider myself a toy train collector and I buy a great many starter sets. I will happily use the app.
Although... I still need hardware, right? I need TIU + Wireless connector? Does this hardware prevent me from running P2/P3 on same track as LC and LC+? Thanks.
pdxtrains posted:pdxtrains posted:Trainlover9943 posted:pdxtrains posted:Can anyone clarify: does this app only work for current or future engines that have a bluetooth connection built in, or will they work with my older P2/P3 engines? I.E.; is it like Lionchief, where the engines need to be equipped to work?
It'll run any ps2/3 engine.
Then this is a plus for me. No way was I going to ever lay out money for hardware--I consider myself a toy train collector and I buy a great many starter sets. I will happily use the app.
Although... I still need hardware, right? I need TIU + Wireless connector? Does this hardware prevent me from running P2/P3 on same track as LC and LC+? Thanks.
Yes. You need the WIU and TIU. You can run PS2/3 engines on the same track.
Can the DCS Commander https://mthtrains.com/50-1028 be used as an auxiliary control device with a DCS WIU DCS app configuration? Unlike the DCS Remote, the DCS Commander does not use a thumb wheel that can be depressed. It has a dedicated SELECT button instead. The advantage being that its the select function of the handheld DCS remote thumb wheel that fails over time. So I'm thinking of adding a DCS Commander to my layout so that I have a physical (control panel) to control my engines. True, I won't be able to carry it around the layout but that's what my tablet\phone and DCS app is for. I'd setup the DCS Commander in the corner of my layout where I usually sit. Its relatively easy to swap control between a pair of engines on the DCS Remote as it is via the App. However, having a controller dedicated to a third (I typically run 3 at a time) engine during an operating session would be ideal. Has anyone added a DCS Commander to their DCS WIU/TIU?
Has anyone added a DCS Commander to their DCS WIU/TIU?
Although I haven't done this, you should be able to have both the app/TIU/WIU and the DCS Commander active at the same time, even on the same tracks, as long as you only use the DCS Commander as the power for the tracks and run the TIU in passive mode.
However, you'll be limited to using only 6 amps of DC power, since that's how the DCS Commander works. In my opinion, it's just not worth the effort. You'd be better off using a remote alongside the app.
Barry Broskowitz posted:Has anyone added a DCS Commander to their DCS WIU/TIU?
Although I haven't done this, you should be able to have both the app/TIU/WIU and the DCS Commander active at the same time, even on the same tracks, as long as you only use the DCS Commander as the power for the tracks and run the TIU in passive mode.
However, you'll be limited to using only 6 amps of DC power, since that's how the DCS Commander works. In my opinion, it's just not worth the effort. You'd be better off using a remote alongside the app.
Barry,
Thanks for the recommendation. I didn't realize I'd be limited to 6 amps with the Commander. Too bad, I was looking forward to using the more robust thumb wheel of the Commander. I've always found the thumb wheel on the DCS remote to be a little notchy. I guess another drawback of the commander would be that I'd have to memorize the engine # address as opposed to seeing the name of the engine on the display.
Ken
Gentlemen,
Frankly I see no need for controlling my train layout via the AP and phone. I love the HHRC on both the DCS and Legacy. Further I do believe MTH will produce the DCS HHRC in sufficient numbers to keep the public happy. Now later on parts might be a problem, hope GGG continues to stock & supply the wheels and other needed parts for them.
PCRR/Dave
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