Do I have enough power with just a 180w from Lionel for this layout? 16x8 layout

DoubleDAZ posted:

 

FWIW, we tend to get hung up on suggestions for DCS to separate layouts into blocks of 10 joints, to isolate the center rail and to wire 10-12 blocks per TIU channel. That's how we came up with the suggestion to divide your layout into blocks. RTR12 will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe DCS likes the power connections (Gray tracks) close to the center of each block so power (control signal) is distributed more evenly.

Didn't copy it, but your wiring diagram on the track plan above looks good to me! And yes, I believe wiring to the center of each block is recommended as well. That is how I did mine and I tried to follow Barry's book as closely as possible when I wired it, didn't want any problems later on. Also 10-12 track joints per block is recommended.  You got it! 

In your most recent post, just above (edit, Dave that is now 4 posts above, I got derailed), scrap all the layouts with no blocks, that will cause problems with the DCS signal. If using only one power feed to a loop, it still needs at least one break in the center rail somewhere. I'd probably go with 2 breaks and 2 power feeds absolute minimum, but quartering it like the last drawing in that post would be much better, IMO.

I had all kinds of DCS problems, even with some pretty small temporary layouts with only one power feed and no breaks in the center rail. I thought they were too small to make any difference, I was wrong!  Those problems all went away when I wired my permanent layout per Barry's book, no problems since then. That is, except for the self inflicted ones I still cause for myself every now and then.

Robert Cushman posted:

I asked that guy who makes the switches on eBay with a 3D printer and said I won’t need a block after the switch unless the other end is continuous but if it’s a dead end there won’t be a problem.

Right, that shouldn’t be there, I missed it when I deleted the other one, but all it was really doing was point out there’s a block there because of the Block track.

RTR12, like I said, I’ve run 2 engines on a single track around the 4x8x10 “L” without any center rail isolation and had no problems, but I didn’t have any switches or additional runs, so the trains were just following each other. However, I too would wire things like the last example, though I’m just not convinced the 10 joints and 10-12 blocks per Channel are hard rules. I suspect a lot has to do with how much equipment you run and how much power you have, but it’s rather obvious that a single power drop can run this whole layout for Legacy, though maybe not for DCS. Since Lionel makes Block tracks, it looks like it would be easy enough to add them. Either way I hope Robert doesn’t fasten the track until he’s sure it’s all working. 

Robert Cushman posted:

How about one of these? https://mthtrains.com/30-74970

I’m not familiar with it, but it looks like it would track the voltage around the track. You’d have to push it onto the spur to tell you if the track after the curve is a dead track. I don’t know if it’s worth $70 though. I’d replace the track after the curve first to see what happens and then pick up a $10 volt meter to test continuity, etc.

It's been several years now (2012-2013 or so), but I had a couple of 3'x6' or 3'x7' circles/ovals of track with no breaks in the center rail and only one power drop to the track. At the time I had 2 engines, one PS2 and one PS3. One or the other was always giving me the dreaded 'engine not found', 'out of range' or one of those other nasty DCS error messages. I did add a switch or two at some point, but the problem started as soon as I got the second engine. It does seem like I wasn't getting errors or at least not nearly as many when I had only one engine and had just gotten back inthe hobby.

Anyway, that all stopped when I built my current layout and followed Barry's book, which made a believer out of me. I don't doubt it probably works for some, but it didn't work for me. I also haven't been around that many other layouts, just mostly the ones I have had on my own.  

I agree on the number of joints and blocks per channel, I think that is just a best practice, but you can also fudge a bit here and there. Compromises have to be made here and there and it's probably ok for the most part. It's really the blocks (or breaks in the center rail) that I am totally sold on from personal experience.   

Robert, if you watch the Harbor Freight ads or Google for their coupons, every so often they have offers for a free meter with purchase. Not a fancy one, but good enough for checking voltages, continuity, etc.

RTR12, that’s interesting. Both my engines are PS3, but I think the Z500 only puts out 4.5 amps. Yes, it’s enough for the 2 engines and 6 lighted cars, but I was surprised I never had problems. Oh well, like I sad, I’d play it safe, so we’ll see how Robert does.

Yes it is interesting. My first engine was PS2 and as I recall, worked pretty well by itself for a while on the small loop of track. I started out with a Z500 too, with MTH starter set.

Also maybe an important question. If Im using 14gauge copper wire, Can I run it about 8ft from the Terminal to TIU or is that too far.

If you have them handy send me a photo of your layouts.

The guidelines for DCS suggest 16 gauge wire from TIU to track is sufficient for runs up to 30’, so I see no reason why you can’t use 14 gauge from the TIU to a terminal block. I assume the 180 and TIU are on one side of the layout and you want to put a terminal on the other side.

14g should be ok. Sometimes wire can present signal issues though.

 Signal issues are hard to know about before a set up is tried. Later; moving it or changing something may introduce an issue that wasn't there before.  You just can't assume anything will or won't work on a whim; IMO it's the nature of the digital beast to vary performance within various environments.

Using higher strand counts when the option presents itself is usually a good idea.... and is often more flexible wire😉

I'm a firm believer in wire gauge oversizing for power, so the power delivery is always up to par and melted looms are more of a longshot. I'd rather replace melted roadbed than wires.... and I'll see any melted track; not so on wires.

  Fat busses & fusing the main feed so the track's (&/or bus)  max amps is never reached is the "ideal" design. (transformer breakers are protecting the transformer by design. The fact they somewhat protect the track/etc. is not really why they are there; ideally you fuse the items ran by the transformer separately🤔)

RTR12 you're right; Barry suggested equal length isolated blocks and feeding the blocks near each block length's centers for the most consistant operation.

Side note. How do I wire this Burning switch tower to a fastrack setup? 

The older version without the plug n play.

just plug into this? 

I believe so. I think the single wire would go to the outside rail connection and the other 3 to the center rail. Hopefully, someone will correct me because I know nothing about Lionel accessories, old or new.

Got the spdt switches.

Check this out. 

Interesting, power is not getting past that first straight track.

This Lionel Video about Fastrack Continuity might help.

Reading all these posts about the nuances associated with DCS make me a firm believer in on board battery power or tmcc/legacy.  I know it has a following but jeeze.  And to answer the original question you seem to have sufficient power.

Says 15-17 around the entire track. I can’t be certain but where that power cut might have a block piece now that I think about it. I’ll check tomorrow. 

Yeah it’s a block piece false alarm everyone. 

Glad the mystery has been solved. I didn’t think you had any block tracks yet, but I guess I should have asked. I thought that was a 30” track there, didn’t notice in the earlier photos that it wasn’t.

These are awesome.

Thank you gentlemen!

Turn your phone over to horizontal before you start any video. 

So if one 180 watt is sufficient for this layout, how big do you need to go to make it worth your whole to get that Zw-L?

John H posted:

Turn your phone over to horizontal before you start any video. 

YES, Public Service Announcement on V-V-S:

Need for a ZW-L is not necessarily determined by layout size. It has more to do with what you are powering with your ZW-L. It all depends on your power requirements. 

If you have a small layout with lots of lighted (non-LED) passenger cars, postwar trains, powered accessories, incandescent lights, etc. on your layout, you might need a ZW-L for a much smaller layout. 

How do I make the top loop turn off with the spdt switch? I got block pieces I can toss in. Just want the ability to turn off the loop. 

If I understand the switch you're using, the top example shows how things are wired now. You have hot and ground coming from the transformer or terminal block to the tracks. There is a break in the center track with a wire from one side going to the In on the switch and the other side to Out1 on the switch. When the switch is On, power is routed to Out1. When you flip the switch Off, power transfers to Out2 that leads to nothing, supposedly tuning power off to the center track. However, since this is an oval and not a dead-end spur, the power is circling the track and coming in from both directions when it hits the switched track, the switch isn't really doing anything in this case.

The bottom example shows the hot wire connected to the In on the switch and another wire from Out1 to the center track. Now when the switch is in the On position, power is routed to Out1 and the track. When you flip the switch Off, it again transfers to Out2 that still leads to nothing, effectively turning power off to the center track.

In both cases, a double throw wasn't needed, but could be useful if you wanted to add something like a red light to the circuit to show power is off. The switch can be added to the hot wire and mounted anywhere, I just used your current setup for the example. 

Here’s underneath of what it looks like.

Spdt where should I put the hot into this?

Actually, after looking at it again, I think you can simply attach it to the post that isn’t being used. Right now if the switch is “on”, the route goes from one side of the track through the switch to the other side. However, if you attach the Hot to the unused post, then when you flip the switch, the route will now go from that post to the track, effectively turning the power “on”.

Thank you again! Problem resolved.

Glad that worked.

Dave don’t take this the wrong way but your a darn train genius! Can’t say d a m n.

Thanks, but you give me way too much credit, I’ve just had some experience with switches and block wiring from the HO days.

Dave, I have another brain buster for you. Can you make a loop connect the top part with 2 Left 0-48 switches with minimum room. I can go as low as o-36 for turns.

Adding a single reversing loop doesn't do much because you can't reverse again without backing through the loop. However, I don't know if you just happen to have the O48 switches left over and want to use them for something, so here are 3 options.

Option 1 uses O-36 switches and O-36 curves to give you both reversing loops.

Option 2 uses O-48 switches and O-48 curves to give you a single reversing loop. A 2nd loop cannot be added without lengthening the oval. This design has an "S" curve between the switches.

Option 3 uses O-48 switches and O-36 curves to give you a single reversing loop. A 2nd loop cannot be added without lengthening the oval.

I used a single reverse loop, and now kinda feel it's two R-loops or forget it. I'd rather have more passing sidings/runarounds or even a fig.8..  I hate backing thru the single loop to reverse a second time. When I'm ready for a reversing chall3nge I prefer a stub siding.

I end up running it until "delivery", then reversing in the loop, then ignoring it by going into endless looping mode 😯   Which is still ok because I enjoy the "campfire" aspect of relaxing with silent looping; but other folks hate looping and prefer more prototyped aspects in operation(times, delivery, loading/unloading; etc..   I.e., learn know your inner engineer; your true impulses and habits as they trump any cool track plans that don't really serve into your actual tendencies while running.  I knew my habits as Gramps and Great Gramps were big model RR guys , plus I ran yearly on the floor for 40+ years. I still played with track plans for two years before detailing anything and then kinda missed playing with the track plans. (I scratch that itch with a floor layout a few times a year now😁)  Not necessarily a suggestion so much as a point to ponder; it may be NA.

Dave; you do have a decent knack for teaching. You naturally "shift views" taylored to the student needs and assume little (to teach well assume the student knows NOTHING.... {very loose Plato}

An Oval and Figure 8 with 4 switches give reversing in both directions without backing up.  Oval and Figure 8 has been my favorite small track plan since Santa brought it to me and my brother as kids.  It is the basis for my existing layout for the last 40 years.

Charlie

Adriatic posted:

Dave; you do have a decent knack for teaching. You naturally "shift views" taylored to the student needs and assume little (to teach well assume the student knows NOTHING.... {very loose Plato}

Thank you, I appreciate the compliment.