"Double" Soft Key Commands

I also put in a plastic fiber pin on the center rail

I assume that you mean that you no longer have a two complete loops, correct? Rather, each loop is now, in effect, a block with two ends.

Some questions:

• Is there any chance that the problem occurs when the engine is straddling both sides of the center rail insulating pin?
• Does the problem occur on both loops or only on one?
• Does the problem occur with one engine or more than one engine?
• What track and transformer are you using?

A variety of causes have been posted, including having 2 feeds per block.  I don't have 2 feeds to any block, but get this in 2 of my 70 blocks.  Problem occurs with many different locos on my layout, but only in these 2 blocks..

Barry: Both loops are totally isolated. I would say it occurs more frequently on the larger outside loop vs smaller inside loop. Only one fiber pin is in place on each loop so yes technically the center rail has two ends. 

In regards to your questions:

1) No. Occurs in various spots near and far to fiber pin

2) Both loops but I notice it more on the larger (outer) loop. 

3) More than one engine but some engines are more likely to repeat commands than others

4) Transformers are Z1Ks and track is Lionel 0-27 profile tubular track. Outside loop has no switches, inner has 3 Ross switches. 

RJR - Only one feed on each loop with one fiber pin essentially cutting the continuous loop of track/center rail. 

How are you powering the TIU and which TIU channels are you using?

The 1Ks are hooked to the Fixed 1 and 2 channels via those MTH barrel adapter doo-dads. 

Clean the wheels and rollers.  

I just got bit by that when I was testing a TIU.  When things went south, I looked at the TIU, the track, the wiring, and then realized that the rollers had a track of black goo on them!  Cleaned it up and suddenly everything worked properly.

I'm not sure how many times I have to learn that lesson.

GRJ, that may not be it.  Just got a new PS3 loco today, and is does this all over the layout.  Of course, there may be some glop on the rollers.

John, 

Been there done that...no change. I've had the double command thing on my old layout and that was my "clean the track" message...did so and no problems for a few weeks/months. Strangely enough, that doesn't fix anything here. 

RJR - I have another PS3 engine coming in later this week/early next week. I'd be curious to see what happens. I've noticed that it occurs in roughly the same spots  but on various intervals. Checked those spots for signal strength and power with a multimeter and no obvious issues. I only have one fiber pin on the center rail, was thinking what doing the same to the outer rails would result ing.....strange....(no operational issues, just occasional double whistle/commands in roughly the same spots). 

That certainly sounds like a signal reflection, perhaps some of the DCS filters might help?

John,

 perhaps some of the DCS filters might help?

Although possible, it's unlikely, since he has a Rev. L TIU.

Thanks for the filter tips John/Barry. 

Would you both agree, since there are no operational issues other than the occasional double command, that there really isn't anything to worry about? 

Would you both agree, since there are no operational issues other than the occasional double command, that there really isn't anything to worry about? 

Yes.

If it doesn't bother you, I agree with Barry, it's not going to hurt anything.

Now I'm going to shoot all the theories. 

My new PS3 Decapod does double whistles everywhere on the layout.  Ran a PS2 Northern right behind it and, hitting the whistle button in the same places, never got a double.

So it must be something in the locos, maybe in combination with the track.

I have had this problem for a long time, and I found a great solution, stop caring! My trains have worked fine ever since this solution If the whistle blows twice, it does. BUT, that is just how I feel about it now. 

Cleartrack,but using SXS makes for a lot of whistling.  I didn't mind it when it only happened in one block, but a single loco doing it all over the layout is too much.

Oh yeah, no doubt that would bother me. happening only in one block, I let it go. I started a thread about it some time ago. I had continued to search but it seems still there is no real solution.  

Every "solution" presented to me for this has resulted in no success of making the problem go away.

Where is the feed in relation to the block length? One thing that sometimes happens in DCC is "bounce-back" from the end of the block. Snubbers (filters) placed at one end of the block, with the feed at the other seems to stop this. This might be happening here as the distance between the feed and the end of the block could be just right to have reflection occurring.

Matt, if 24 locos have no problem and one does, I'm not about to rewire.

Sorry for not getting back here sooner...appreciate the replies. It doesn't bother me although I also don't care for the double SXS as that is a bit too much for me. Guess it is just the way things are and I'll live with it. Good to know, at least, I'm not the only one and there isn't some sort of clear cause/fix outside of the ones I've attempted. 

It happened to me as well.  Not all engines, not all the time.  Seems like it comes and goes.  I just decided to live with it.  There's other things to worry about.

Oh. Didn't catch it was one loco. Definitely NOT a feedback issue.

One thing I do is set the operating mode the "Speed" so the TIU doesn't wait for an acknowledgement from the locomotive.

Gentlemen,

   Every once in a while my Rev L 4.20 unit does this with just certain P2 engines,

it never bothered me to have it doubling, never thought it was a problem, in fact I actually thought it was suppose to happen that way, now if this was a shotgun the doubling would be a completely different matter.

PCRR/Dave

The problem with the 25th loco has been solved.  Barry spent some time on the phone with me today and diagnosed the issue as a PS3 tether that wasn't fully seated at the tender end.  Pressing it in better solved most double whistling and another problem, inability to change engine address.

To add to Robert's post...

I suspect that the double execution of soft key commands may be due, at least in part, to a remote issue. It's possible that the soft key itself is actually issuing the command twice, instead of once, by in effect "double-clicking" the button.

An easy test for this is to issue the command from the soft key list by pressing the thumbwheel, rather than by pressing the soft key button. Another test would be to use a different remote.

I'd very much appreciate it if those of you who are experiencing this problem can test this theory and post back on this thread.

Thanks!

Barry: Interesting suggestion...never thought of doing it via thumbwheel. Will see if I can get some time downstairs tomorrow to try it out. 

Just tried it, no difference with thumbwheel. Also tried it in speed mode, no change. 

I'll have to try one of the other remotes, I never thought about the key doubling.

Guns,

    After testing your other hand held remote controls, I do believe you are going to find Barry is absolutely correct with his statement that the soft key is probably doing the doubling, in fact if I remember correctly one of my remote controls made the 263E engine double and the other hand held remote control did not, Barry's logic holds true as to actuality with my 2 different hand held remotes. When Bill returns my up graded 2nd rechargable remote control, I will test it again when I build the next Christmas layout.  As I indicated before none of this doubling ever bothered me, so I never thought any thing was actually wrong.  I actually thought the newer remote control was up graded at the factory to initiate a 2nd activation.  You guys now telling me that the doubling is actually not an MTH up grade, are bumming me out.  Here I was giving the MTH engineers credit for a cool up grade, when it actually might be a faulty soft key.  All MTH needs to due now, is advertise that certain amount of hand held remote control units were specially up graded to institute an experimental doubling effect, and every runner would be trying to purchase one, this alone might effect MTH's bottom line at the end of the sales year.

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

All MTH needs to due now, is advertise that certain amount of hand held remote control units were specially up graded to institute an experimental doubling effect, and every runner would be trying to purchase one, this alone might effect MTH's bottom line at the end of the sales year.

LOL!  

Fired up my 4 remotes to test your theory, Barry, and of course no loco would double-blast in the block where it usually happens. 

But I did find that, although loco #5 (PS2, 5v upgraded to 3V)) is listed in remote #3 (the one with a lanyard for the smallest grandchildren), remote #3 will do nothing to control it.  As soon as I get the softkeys and other settings set for my newest 2 locos in my master remote (#4), I'll reclone them all and see what happens.

Barry,

  Yep this DCS stuff is starting to influence the home front, what once was frustrating is now great engineering.  Keeping it light hearted is half the fun.  I am still a Tin Plate kid at heart who's dream came true, of running his Grandpa's Tin Plate Trains, with actual remote control.  MTH DCS is a dream come true for me, you have helped add to that dream by writing your DCS O Gauge Companion book, I truly meant it long ago when I thanked you for your writing efforts, it makes everything incredibly enjoyable.

PCRR/Dave

Robert,

although loco #5 ... is listed in remote #3 ... remote #3 will do nothing to control it.

Does the engine have the same DCS ID# in remote #3 as it does in other remotes that can control it, and does remote #3 have the same level of DCS software as do the other remotes?

Yes on both counts.

Barry & Guns

   This is not the 1st time I have heard about a P2-5V engine upgraded to a 3V having this kind of problem, interfacing with a particular hand held remote.  Would like to hear your opinion on why this might be happening.

PCRR/Dave

I've a few of these 5>3 conversions.  When I get a chance, I'll check out the issue in detail with other engines & remotes, and reloading & cloning.

RJR,

   Thanks buddy I am interested your findings.

PCRR/Dave

Dave, that remote had no problem except with this one loco,  Other remotes have no problem with this loco, or any other as far as I know. 

I recloned all my remotes to include my newest loco new loco and now this remote runs the 5>3 loco with no problem.  Must have been a scrambled file in the remote.  Couldn't have been that it was never reloaded into the remote after the upgrade, because my practice is to always load locos into remote #4 and then clone the others.

After running many hours today with a train-nut grandson, I have concluded that this may be more loco-related than we think.  My new PS3 Decapod double toots more than not, and all over, while other locos only rarely and some never.