DZ-1008

I feel your pain

Is it a right handed switch or right handed pair of switches that doesn't work?

When you say the wires are too long, are you 'piggybacking' the DZ 1008 onto the DZ 1000? 

By 'lights', do you mean the LEDs on the switch machine?

Are you wiring just to the switch controller or back to an ASC or SC?

I'll check back later-hang in there...

Do you have the wiring diagram from z-stuff?

Doug

I am piggybacking the DZ-1008 0nto the DZ-1000 where the wires went, per directions. 

The crossovers are either 2 right hand or 2 left hand switches and are between tracks (Gargraves) 3.5 inches  apart and except for # 8's are all Curtis switches. 

By lights I mean the LED's on switches. 

I have enough wiring diagrams to fill a small book.  If the answers are there at this time I am so overloaded, I cannot make sense of it at all.

Do the LH work and RH not work?- This is important when using the DZ 1008.

To me your first step is to feel comfortable in how to wire up a switch by itself.  From there go on to try the 1008. good luck.

I agree. I would wire each switch independently to make sure they are working then try themtogether then add the dz1008.

Doug

Here's what I would do. First wire up the switches, get them operating- with LEDs all correct-that is green when straight-red when curved-on both switch machine and controller.

Then -CHECK your DZ 1008s on your BENCH before installing!  I have installed 3-  I've sent back 1 and have 2 on my bench on a manilla folder to send back where they came from, because they didn't work out of the box! (plastic bag). 50 %-not real good.  Before I did this, I was swearing in Czechoslovakian because I ran out of English words.

Take a minute and check out a thread on the electrical forum called- do a search on this title-' DZ-1008A Switched Track Power Control Question'

I figured out that the DZ 1008 is RH switch machine oriented.  That means you have to switch the leads from DZ 1008 to switch controller-piggybacking on a RH switch may not work.  It didn't in my case.  But I got a RCS double xover with 2 relays finally figured out with the help of JoeTheBro who explains in that thread how to test the relays on your bench-to make sure they work- BEFORE you go to the effort and time and frustration... I've been there-done that...

but, they do work!

now take a deep breath and remember-man will always overcome machine-peace 

I did our double-crossover so it throws two motors with one controller to crossover from one mainline to the other, and the green button on either controller sets everything back to through.  I'll have to go look at it to see how I did it if this is what you are seeking.  Some day I'll install two relays; one to control the current on the middle diamond rails and the other to operate some overhead signals.

I did check electrical forum recomendation and when my entheusiasm returns, I will start from point 1 and check switches separately, then together, then with DZ-1008. 

After reading electrical and this, it is nice to know at least I am not alone. 

Only 25 more double crossovers to go. 

Sometimes it seems like almost too frustrating to be fun. 

Will also check LED's that I reversed , to see if they are part of problem. 

Thanks to all. you have been a GREAT help.

mikeg

Like a lot of things, once you get one, you'll get it done.  It can certainly be a mind bender till that time comes, I will grant you that.  Cheers

This subject keeps comming up. I have about 5 pairs of Ross switches wired up to work from one controller. One of them has a 1008 connected to it. This is the story.

The "L" on the switch machine MUST connect to the "L" on the controller and to the "L" on the other switch machine!

The "R" on the switch machine MUST connect to the "R" on the controller and to the "R" on the other switch machine!

"AC" from each switch machine MUST go to the hot side of your switch power!

The "C" on the controller MUST connect to the common return of your switch power!

DO NOT change these connections for any reason!

Mount the switch machines on the switches so that they move the switch in the proper direction when activated. If you can't mount the switch machine properly then you can't run both switches off the same controller. With Ross switches this is usually no problem but it can become difficult with Gargraves switches as they usually have only one location for the switch machine. The switch machines must be wired this way or the lights will not work.

Now once you get the switches working it is finally time to get the proper lights to light. The Red and Green lights are interchangeable. Simply pull the light out and plug it in the other position. CAUTION! The lights are polarity sensitive. If you look carefully there is a flat spot on the side of the light and a flat spot on the side of the hole the light plugs into. These must line up. Please note: the flat spots on the switch machine are different from each other.

Now for the DZ-1008. Stop here if you do not have the switches working. Fix them first. You DO NOT need to piggy-back the 1008 to a switch machine. It can be just as easily mounted under the board or any where else. There are 7 wires comming out of the 1008. The Yellow wire MUST connect to the "L" terminal. This is the same as the little wire that sticks out of the 1008 and lines up with the "L" terminal on the switch machine.

The Green wire MUST connect to the "R" terminal. Again, this is the same as the little wire that sticks out of the 1008 and lines up with the "R" terminal on the switch machine.

The Red wire MUST connect to your switch machine hot power the same as the "AC" terminal on the switch machine. As with the other two this is the same as the center wire on the 1008.

The Black wire MUST connect to your switch machine power common return. This is the same connection you made to the "C" terminal of the switch controller.

The Blue, Gray, and White wires are your relay contacts. Connect these LAST and as necessary to get what you want. Please note, these contacts only have a 10 AMP rating. This may sound like a lot but if you use them to control track power, after a few shorts you could easily burn them out.

PRRTrainguy,

Is this the kind of crossover setup you are using?

and

Are you trying to accomplish this with the Custom Signals?

Joe

PS: I didn't try too hard to get the lites to stay lit on the switch motors cause

thats what the signals are for. They only lite while  power is being applied to

move the points. Also my DZ1008s are remote mounted and I'm using the

Lionel ASCs to control the switches. I tried hooking-up the buttons but couldn't get

the lites to work correctly. Again not a big thing for me cause I'm doing things

remotely.

Originally Posted by JoeTheBro:

The pictures are of Midway and Morris interlockings, both not complete.  They are "standard" 4 track PRR interlockings.  My big one is the Fair interlocking (8 tracks) , including the Trenton station and 2 branch lines diverting at that location. 
The Custom Signals will be standard PRR interlocking signals using P52 and advance signals using P42. 

I think after seeing schematic of insides of DZ-1008 I am probably not going to continue piggybacking DZ-1008 onto DZ-1000.  It's simpler not directly connecting them together.

Thanks for update on voltage differences, I will adjust accordingly from 14 to 10 on blue. 

My experience is different than HOSO&NZ- the MUST word is not the case all the time.  A RH switch may require connections to be switched between all 3 components.  

Thanks for the update.  It does help and I appreciate all the help I have received.  The different voltages is something I did not notice and will now rectify. 

mikeg

PRR Trainguy,

I think you mis-understood HOSO&NZ. He wrote 10AMPs not 10Volts, big

difference. So you don't have to lower the voltage. Besides the BSCs/TSCs

are looking for a ground from your signal system power supply, so you

are not "pushing"  much amperage through the DZ1008 contacts. After

looking at your photos, I'm glad my setup is "simple". As others have

suggested, get one set of switches to work first and then move on to the others.

Here is a photo of one of my connections for twp pair of the Ross/DZ100 switches.

There is a pair of switches connected to each terminal block.

Two switches (LH) on left and (RH) on right using only one DZ1008 each. The

resistor connected to the yellow wire(to switch motor) is to limit "point bounce".

Another problem you might come across too.

Good luck

Joe

I'm curious as to what are talking about when you say different voltages?  That doesn't apply here as far as I know.  I don't want you to go down a road you shouldn't.  I believe 10 amp(?) was mentioned because if you run over a switch turned the wrong way and you cross over the wrong powered lead rail, you will fry the relay because they aren't built to handle the amount of juice we put on the rails.  I've smelled it - A freshly fried DZ 1008 produces an odor not easily forgotten.

Take it one step at a time.  Start with a LH Xover.  Check the relay before installing.  Be flexible, because a RH switch may differ in the wiring.

Have a good holiday everyone-  Cheers!   

I am actually getting somewhere.  Have hooked up switches and 2 work off one controller.  Then install DZ-1008. 

2 questions

1. Am I the only one who has problems hooking wires to DZ-1000?  It seems you carefully install wires and then must wiggle them for contact.  Sometimes the wires that worked last night do not work tonight.  Remembered it was the same problem when I first installed them on previous layout.  Duh! Is there a simple solution I am missing?

2. I cannot see any reason that DZ-1008 has to even be near DZ-1000. Why not install many at a convenient spot on or near control panel, eliminating grief of connecting upside down and then running wires .  Can anyone refute or confirm?

Are we having fun yet.

mikeg

Does your DZ 1000 have the screws?  They will get stripped and won't snug up if you have done and redone them too many times.  Plastic threads.  I have 2 on the side that I overdid it and are now for parts (?) I pushed 1 screw clear out the bottom trying to get contact.  It takes tinkering once you strip them, or sometimes they're just done.  The new ones have wires into the sw machine-no more screws. 

You can put the DZ1008 wherever you want, as long as your connections are correct.  You are halfway there, you just don't know it yet...

Cheers

I have screws and have not stripped them yet.  They are tight and wire holds in place but sometimes does not contact.  Wiggling helps but seems dumb, for lack of a better word.

Thanks for update opinions.

mikeg

I thought we had a schematic posted on one of these thread for the DZ 1008.  I assume these are electrically held and when used for power routing via the electric non-derail of the DZ1000 they would be subject to the same use/abuse as the Atlas 6924 relay boards. I also have use a couple of these relays for power routing with limited success and eventual failure.

Problem (1.) the non-derail hold circuit is intermittent, or does it lock in as the DZ 1000 switch motor does? This constant make/break of the contacts triggered by a non-derail input IMO easily short terms the DZ1008.  Maybe this thing (DZ 1008) is more intense than what I'm seeing.  Using them with the Ross 204 three way switch, I never got them to work consistantly. Eventual failure causes the power routing to short circuit, so I disconnected them.

Problem (2.) Atlas eventually added to their on-line wiring diagram a 3 amp line fuse to protect the 6924 board traces rated at 8 amps. De-rail  short circuits easily fried the 6924 relay board traces, so these small DZ 1008 relay are most likely subject to the same failure.

JoeTheBro mentioned that he can't keep the lights on his switch controller to stay on.  Here is the solution from Z-Stuff.  Add diodes (1N914 or 1N4148)in each leg.  Worked for me.

Going to my local, friendly, small and only Radio Shack and hopefully they will have product.

Sometimes small towns have disadvantages.

Thank you for help.

mikeg

Dillon thanks

Doug

I'm not sure that's necessary.  If I remember right, JoeThe Bro wasn't using the switch controller, but just wired the switch directly to an ASC, so by eliminating that step, the LEDs weren't lighting up on the switch machine.  Which is normal.  He wanted it that way.  I think the diodes may be an unnecessary step if you are still hooking to the switch controller.  I never had to use anything like that and my siwtches, LEDs etc are all rock solid wired to the controllers and ASCs.

IKnowJoeTheBro- I'm thinking he's getting led astray.  I wouldn't go snipping the plastic away either.  That's got to be ugly.

PRRTrainGuy- I'll make you an offer.  Buy me a round trip ticket from Chicago/ O'Hare, give me a cot in the basement next to your layout, $ 400 a day, and I'll get you rigged up for around $1200-2 days.  Layout Grunts will travel for work.

Seriously

I am using SC-2s no buttons, so if I want lights I assume I need the diodes?

Doug

When I tried to set my switches up for non-derailing, the non-derailing part worked correctly, but the LEDs did not ... either on the switch motor nor the controller.  Haven't figured out why ...

Just to muddy the water a bit more.   This project has seven switching sets and is connected to (2) sets of (7) push-buttons and SC-2 controller paralleled on (6) of the (7) switches.
Each cross over is a pair of DZ 1000's. They have to be wired per diagram. Greens to Greens and Yellows to Yellows. If you don't have the correct throw, the switch motor position has to be changed to get the correct throw.  Reversing wires will screw up the led's.  All wired per diagram including electric non-derail, Red light for out, green for through, you start moving diodes as required.  Keep in mind the diode has a flat side and that both the push buttons and DZ 1000's have a correct orientation determined by the flat side.

This is what you get with the push buttons. Unfortunately the reds and greens do not align as I had them installed.




Switch motors 6 and 7 (keep in mind they are pairs) are not wired at this point.  Switch (1), (2), (3) are singles. (4) through (7) are pairs.  I didn't have to add diodes to get this to work even with electric non-derail and the SC-2 which parallels into the (2) sets of (7) pushbuttons.
Left side Push buttons (1) through (3) are wired in the next picture below. Wiring to Push buttons (4) through (7) is not done.   The SC-2 is wired for all Switches (2) through (7) complete.

Using a 22 gauge multi (4) conductor cable.
Red is Power required at the DZ 1000's and DZ 1008 relays.
Black is accessory common/track common used at the push buttons, SC-2, and the DZ 1008 relays.
Green is through switching used at the push buttons, SC-2  DZ 1000's and the DZ 1008 relays.
Yellow/white is out/diverge switching used at the push buttons, SC-2  DZ 1000's and the DZ 1008 relays.

Right side push buttons. (4) through (7) are not complete.

A top side view of the parallel switch motors.


How it works. Click on the image below. Control is via a Cab-1  Sw. numbers (2) to (7).

Mike_CT
Thats the problem I had with the pre-wired DZ1000s. They seem to favor the LH
switches. So I reversed the switch motor positions on the RH switches to keep the

colors aligned. I think this only happens, when you are connecting switches to

operate in pairs. There is definately a lot of confusion on how to wire these things.

Joe

I don't understand the aversion to including the controllers in the equation.  I just attached them to the bottom of the layout where they are unseen.  If it was meant to be wired this way, why not do it that way?  All my LEDs are correct, I never changed the position of any switch machines and everything is perfecto.  I battled with the DZ 1008 on a Ross double xover for awhile, but with JoeTheBro's help, got that nailed down also.  Just a thought. 

PRRTrainGuy- I hope I didn't seem like a jerk when I made my offer.  I'm getting frustrated by your struggles too.  And as I learned from little miss Mary Rottencrotch in 4th grade at St James school, if you don't ask, you don't get.  Best of luck.  Keep pushing.       WK

Added-I just turned around and there sitting on my desk are 2- DZ 1008s.  Replacements for 2 that didn't work out of the bag.  I don't even need them.  It's a matter of principle some times.  And later projects.  Gotta go.  Make sure these work on my bench before I forget and they bite me later.  Cheers

Congrats,

If hooked up correctly w/o the switches you should not hear any "clicks"

when the power is applied. To test the relays. momentarly touch the

green wire from the DZ1008 to the red wire, while power is applied. You should

hear a "click" as the relay operates. No "click" then something is wrong. May

be a bad relay, but I doubt it. If they all "click" then move on to wiring a switch

to the DZ1008.

Good luck

Joe

I'm back.  Had to take a break before loosing sanity.  Purchased new DZ-1000's from ChasRo ($20.00@GG1000)ea.  These have wires so should help.  Tried working again and even when removing old switch and replacing with new DZ1000 with wires same result. Today will dissassemble other switch and DZ1008 and see if it works. Even though ti does not work there is definitely current in wires to switch with changing controller.    

emailed DRZander

Test the DZ 1008s before installing.  If they work on your bench, they will work on your layout. It seems you are making it more complicated than it is.  Electrical problems are (almost) always logical.  I wish you the best of luck.  It would be nice for you to get past this step.

Trainguy, Please go back and read the rest of this thread, the answers to all your problems are there. The steps listed are not suggestions they are hard and fast rules. If you do not connect the devices as indicated they will not work. If you have the non-derailing feature connected look for shorts. It would be a good idea to disconnect any non-derailing wires until you get the switch machines working. Don't worry about the led color as yet, the LED's can always be moved to put the correct color in the right place. Remember, the most important rule is that L must connect to L and only to L and R must connect to R and only to R.

Al

The LEDs in the controller act as diodes too. So you may need to remove them and re-insert them the other way.

Sorry just noticed that someone else said that!!

Hi appreciate input. 

Wed redid 3 and all work perfectly. 

Thursday redid 2 completely rewired one and new DZ-1000 & controller still doesn't work.  Will check ground and see if this is problem.  Ran next one which ran perfectly before and now first one moves and other moves on next push of same button.  Takes 4 pushes to move 2 switches with one controller.  Since it is not life & death I smiled and shut everything down for night. 

Fri after last night I will leave these alone and go some other place.

Iligitimi non carborundum loosely translated  don't let the BS grind you down.

mikeg