ERR Commander

You don't mention which F3's you are going to do the install in???   You only get cruise with can motors...

Marty

Ditto what Marty says but to answer your first question there will be no difference in pulling power. The weight change is negligible. The same voltage on the track will produce essentially the voltage at the motor at full speed. You should actually increase pulling power at lower speed with command since peak voltage at the motor will be increased, just for shorter period of time.

In conventional the amplitude of the voltage is changed to change speed. In command the period of time that peak voltage is applied to the motor is changed.

Hope that is clear.

Pete

If you are going to convert early F-3's, the ones with the horizontal motors, you might call Ken at ERR and check. I seem to remember having problems with these because the early motors consume more power than the later ones and the board seemed to run really hot and would shut down after a while of running.

I'm considering Wabash, Texas Special, Union Pacific, New Haven - all Postwar type F3's.  I have a new Santa Fe Black Bonnet and new Santa Fe Warbonnet also.  All of these have the old type armatures which are wire wound, similar to HO racing cars.  I'm just trying to get my Post War trains upgraded so that I can use Legacy Control with them and want them to have sound and run as close as possible to Odyssey control capability.

If the engine you choose has an AC/pullmore type motor you won't be able to have cruise.

TMCC yes, cruise no. If you want cruise you will have to find DC motored examples of these engines.

Pete

I don't know the exact weights because honestly not that anal retentive about it. but I have 2 f3's both are a/c versions #218's one I upgrade the other I did not. in upgrading I pulled out the e- unit, the horn, a few brakets, and some other electronic thing. and replaced it with a small almost no weight at all err board. yes the weight difference in noticeable. I noticed the err upgraded f3 can no longer pull a b unit and dummy a unit and 4 passenger cars up my incline the incline is a 3% grade using woodland scenic foam incline set. now is my layout perfect with drops every 8 ft and such no but the incline has a drop and my main line has a drop and voltage on the incline is 16.7 volts so that shouldn't be the issue. this engine also has magna traction with fastrack as my track which all might play into it.

Let me try to clarify this a little (maybe ). Not sure when you say "Postwar type" if you mean these are engines made in the actual Lionel Postwar period (1950s and 60s), or made later. All of the Lionel conventional F-3s (all of which have Pullmor AC motors) can be considered "Postwar type" in that they have the same general bodies and the same type of AC, armature motors. These engines have been made from the early 1950s to the present. (Not to be confused with the "scale" F-3s and F-7s Lionel has made more recently, which have DC can motors.)

However, as Chuck was referring to, there are differences in those AC armature motors, depending on which engine you're talking about and which year it was manufactured. Lionel made changes to these motors over the years, although they may look pretty much the same. The main variations that might affect operation of ERR components would have been on motors in certain engines made in the 1950s (I think). 

If any of your F-3s are ones manufactured in the 1950s, at least, you should call ERR and ask them about whether ERR components can be used in those engines, as Chuck suggested. On many of them, however, as well as most everything made after that, the ERR components should work. But you should definitely contact ERR before ordering.

As others have noted, with the AC Pullmor type motored engines, no cruise control installation is possible. Those cruise control electronics will only work with DC motors, which are found primarily in engines of more modern design. The ERR cruise control upgrades can be used only with those type motors. While Lionel still makes a few AC Pullmor motored engines from time to time, almost all the new stuff now has DC can motors.

So in summary, the vast majority of AC Pullmor type motored engines can be upgraded with ERR components to give them TMCC command control, RailSounds, electrocouplers, directional lighting and constant voltage lighting, but not cruise control. However, although there is no cruise control available, if these TMCC engines are operated with Legacy controllers, they run noticeably smoother and at lower speeds than is possible when operating them using the older TMCC Cab 1 controllers. Without going into detail, this improvement is due to the different type of electronic signal used by Legacy controllers as opposed to the older TMCC Cab 1 controllers. Part of the design of Legacy was to facilitate improved operation of older engines, as well as operational advancements for the new stuff. I've never heard anyone mention any change in pulling power, etc. as a result of an ERR conversion, only operational improvements (and more fun!).

I will test it tonight. the non upgraded to the upgraded I would like to add that the err upgraded engine does run smoother and is more enjoyable now. but there is a weight difference between the two engines which I plan to fix with weights of some sort.

Just to emphasize what others have said:

Your PW/Pullmor F3's will NEVER approach the operation of modern power. They cannot

have cruise control (therefore will act nothing like Odyssey/Legacy/etc), and are not

capable of acting in a modern way. 

Which isn't to say that you don't have nice locomotives of a certain technological

era, and that you shouldn't upgrade them, but if you want modern behavior you will

need to purchase modern locomotives equipped with DC can motors - which is most of them. They will come with the good stuff, or can be easily upgraded to it.

I installed a ERR ACcommander in my Lionel F-3 set with pullmor motors. No cruise, but it runs very smooth and better than conventional. 

What I have done to several older Lionel F-3 sets that I like which haven't been made again (Illinois Central City of New Orleans and Santa Fe blue freight scheme) has been to buy later version F-3 sets that were already equipped with TMCC, RailSounds, electrocouplers, directional and constant voltage lighting, finished interior, etc., and swap the shells. I then sell the shells from the newer engines on the Bay.

This may be somewhat more expensive than going the ERR route, although adding ERR TMCC, RailSounds, electrocouplers etc. plus installation to multiple engines can get expensive. In any case, I end up with TMCC etc. not only on the powered engine, but on the dummy A and B as well, so all dummy engines are fully equipped with remote TMCC electrocoupler, directional lighting and constant voltage lighting,in addition to the RailSounds in one of them.

I also take the finished cab interior with crew figures out of the newer cabs and put those in the other shells, and mount aluminum foil inside to reduce the cab lighting to a low level. Another easy improvement: use two or three layers of masking tape and tape those inside the cab over the cab number lenses - it dulls those down nicely, and makes the numbers readable as well. Anyway, the end result is a nicely upgraded set of engines.

The only part of this procedure that takes a little doing is swapping the RailSounds speaker. The F-3s that come with RailSounds have a molded-in circular frame with screw receptacles that the speaker mounts to on the roof, and that has to be replicated. On one of the sets, I just cut out the top of the shell that had the speaker frame and glued into the inside of the other shell. That destroyed the shell, of course, but it was fairly quick to do. On the other set, I found a cap from a jug of laundry soap that was exactly the same size as the speaker (2" across), and cut that out to fit inside the roof, glued that in, made four small posts for the mounting screws to screw into, and went with that. That procedure took a fair amount longer (including time finding a workable circular frame), but it worked fine. Of course, the second time doing something like this would go far quicker!

I don't know if the ERR RailSounds upgrades for traditional F-3s come with a roof mounting frame or not, but I doubt it, and am not sure how the speaker would be mounted. Note that the speaker openings, which are open vents in the roofs, are already in place on all the F-3s, which allow the speaker sound to vent the shell. On the newer engines and some earlier Postwar, there are screens covering the openings, and the other F-3s have louvered vents. The speaker is positioned directly under the vents.

Sorry for the long-winded explanation.

Hey Gents, I gather that at the most I can hope for is utilizing an AC commander on my F3's and that would be sufficient and the hope of adding railsounds it would more than I could ask for. With that in mind I'll start preparing for the conversions and thank you all for your support (Long winded and short breathed versions). I'm sincerely appreciative of your support.