From the Atlas post about improving the F7

I'm impressed as well - but I ordered the Sunset 3rd Rail F7 based on their single motor drive out performing the "China drive" used by Atlas in all but their EMD switchers.  Redesigning their F unit chassis for single motor drives probably was not something Atlas could do for reason of production cost - BUT in tooling for future new Master Line diesels they should consider adapting the single motor config used by  the best performing diesels in O scale. 

 

Ed Rappe

To all the 2-rail scale modelers I know this argument has raged on these forums for as long as I can remember first logging on, but the truth of the matter is we'll put our direct drive can motored F7 or F2/F3 against any single drive unit you want to compare it to. 

 

As mentioned we do have some experience with both drives and for me personally I would take the direct drive can motored system every time without the hassles of drive shafts and u-joints.

 

We've changed the gearing on the F7 to make it even more smooth at lower speeds with or without DCC engaged and as a bonus with the hidden ports under each truck assembly you can now lube the worm gear without the disassembling of the model.

 

Jerry Kimble

jkimble@atlaso.com

1-908-687-9590 ext. 7118

Atlas Model Railroad Company

Coordinator Sales/Marketing/Product Development

 

 

Jerry what amazes me is you are making improvements on your product and yet people can't wait to complain. your company has done an unbelievable job on the CAL-Z train and you are offering 2 rail track and supporting us two railers with your products.

i am building a 1000 sf layout multi levels and would be at a stand still with your track. thank you.

Great to see Atlas making these improvements now if their motive power production can get on schedule there will be a lot of happy campers out there. Would be nice to see another Masterline freight car on the production schedule besides the announced 3 unit container set [centerbeam flat car, 50',60' Hycubes] just saying.

Vertical vs horizontal; it all depends on what matters to you.  The ability to go around in circles for years on end at a scale 50mph the vertical drive is better, no contest. Unless the exposed gears get too dirty.

 

Contrarily,

 

Modeling the inertia of starting of 100s or 1000s of tons of train from a stop to 1 smph and back to a stop again the horizontal drives will be superior.  And that is what matters to me.

I have both single horizontal motor and some dual vertical motor diesels.   One pair is Atlas O.

 

In every instance as the units get some wear, the dual motor drives do not start and stop as smoothly as single motor.   This varies from mfg to mfg and the Atlas are the best of the duals.   However, all when starting, one truck will start, the unit will jerk, and then the second truck will start.   Stopping is the same, one truck will stop and the unit will jerk to stop.   It is noticable on slow starts and stops. 

 

But as mentioned above the simple mechanics of the dual motor do allow them to run continuously for hours without maintenance.    Also, they can usually be made to go around very sharp rail curves that single motor units probably won't negociate. 

thought I posted a subject of a like or dislike to the China drive but can't find it. I was wondering which is best? I would think that China with 2 motors be a better drive but I guess without proper track connection both motors shut off and cause a jerky motion. China doesn't use flywheels and also uses both trucks to pick up power? Just saying that when one adds power to the layout and the train moves one sometimes at slow speeds gets jerks or complete stops for split sec. When one is running trains on a layout most travel is limited and slow speeds are the norm and so the jerkiness would be a bust to ones enjoyment. 

Guys, let's focus on the positive side! This is great news! I'm sure I'll order some if the second run has something I need. Can't wait to see the new ones perform!  

 

Please get the anti-climber right on the passenger pilot! The form is inverted on the current offering!

My Atlas horizontal-drive SW's and MP15DC are smooth and quiet runners. Connecting (re-wiring) the China drive motors certainly helps their operation as well.

 

However, the thing that really bugs me about the two-motor, vertical drives is they preclude a realistic cab interior.

 

I'm really pleased to hear about the fuel tank.  That's huge for me. 

Thank you Jerry and everyone at Atlas for listening.   I'm really looking forward to my Rio Grandes F7s

Jerry,

Until Atlas re-tools their switches, Atlas will be an also-ran in my book.  

Ed

I always weigh in here - other than obstructing cab detail, mounting a motor vertically, horizontally, or upside down and backwards cannot affect an electric motor.  It is the gear ratio that has made the vertical drives unpopular with scale folks, and Jerry just said they lowered the ratio.  Sure, the spur gears can cause problems if ballast gets in there, but we have lots of loose ballast, and have never had a spur gear failure.  We go through worm gears every three years, worms about every decade, and axles/bearings at about the 15 year point or so.

 

My current problem with Atlas is maintenance - we cannot get replacement gears.  I have recommended to the museum that they sell the faithful Atlas locomotives, and purchase new Weaver or MTH.  I will of course fix the Atlas stuff if and when parts become easily available.

 

The museum is prepared to pay for parts, although most of the time axle gears and gear tower assemblies are just provided as a courtesy.

The replacement gears issue probably falls in line with Atlas ongoing production delays in getting motive power built at any where near their estimated delivery dates.JMO

 

A lot of good improvements! My only suggestion would be that top headlight be slightly tilted toward the rear with the lower edge being slightly forward of the top edge The original tooling bought from P&D was based on the F9, which was a bit different than the earlier F's, as the headlight was pretty much vertical to the ground.

 

Simon

 

PS: Athearn Genesis HO pretty much nailed the contours of the F2's to F7's

Matt

 

I am sure you would be welcome.  Can I give your e-mail to Tom Ilas?  He runs the 2- rail show, and does have DCC.  I cannot even test it, so some repairs have to go to the museum to be tested.  I no longer go to the museum, since my tolerance for non- existent parking and heavy traffic has diminished considerably.

 

bring your MTH reset equipment and I will give you a tour of my hangar displays.

Just E-mailed you off-list. Didn't have your current E-mail address. Of course you can pass my E-mail address to any of the guys in the San Diego consortium. Will bring my DCS bag of tricks and laptop with me. Thanks.

Jerry,

Until Atlas re-tools their switches, Atlas will be an also-ran in my book.  

Ed

 

Yeah and lower the chassis/body on their locos. 

 

butch

All,

 

Atlas would like to thank everyone that ordered one of our F7 locomotives. We had enough orders to make the production run before we extended the deadline with the tooling upgrades, but we were stunned by how many additional orders we’ve received.

 

My thank you message was going to include that we had locked down the orders and if you were still on the fence now would be a good time to make a decision as we would be operating strictly off of the cushion that was ordered for each road. Guess what, the orders continue to arrive so the boss has decided to celebrate “Memorial Day” by continuing to leave the orders open through May 26^th when we really will close out the order cycle.

 

Hey I ordered mine being the huge Santa Fe fan that I am, 5 to be exact as I don’t do dummies. I’ll be the only dummy in my MU’d  F7 locomotives and proud of that fact as one body will be switched with an extra powered unit purchased to give me an all powered ABBA set. Now I know that’s more information than most of you want or needed to know, but I just wanted everyone to know I’m just as excited over these as most of you are and again I/we say thank you!

 

Jerry Kimble

jkimble@atlaso.com

1-908-687-9590 ext. 7118

Atlas Model Railroad Company

Coordinator Sales/Marketing/Product Development

They are going to be fantastic.... Thank you Jerry and Atlas ... 2 thumbs up!

Laidoffsick, Thank you - Jerry Kimble

I buy stock in good companies when I hear the officers do, too.

Enough said.

Bring them on !

 

Scrapiron Scher

Thank you atlas, I have put off getting a nice Santa Fe set too long.  Finally found ones that I can't resist, ordered an ABA with two As powered. 

Any time Atlas feels like doing a CF7 will be fine by me... 2-rail, of course...

I've always wanted a set of F7's in Warbonnet. Maybe now is the time?

Please let us know when you decide what decoder will be used. An ESU decoder would be a deal maker for me.

A few problems with the loco pictured in number 4: PRR F7s did NOT have high fans (only F3s 9500 through 9505 were equipped with high fans), there should only be two portholes, and stainless grilles on the sides for F7s, and only one horn.

 

Simon

The drawings are pretty obviously a Phase I F3.  The improvements are applicable to them and any other F units Atlas has done or may do in the future.

SundayShunte,

 

Thanks for your suggestion of a CF7 but we don't discuss future product offerings anymore due to the competitive nature of the hobby. Bookmark your computer search engine with this underlined address:http://www.atlaso.com/nowshipping.htm and check it monthly for Atlas O announcements.

 

Erik, thanks for your consideration of possibly ordering a set of our F7s especially after seeing the many F and E brass units you own. Now would be the time to do it.

 

SANTIAGOP23 we will be using the ESU decoder and thank you rdunniii for chiming in on our pdf drawing that Erik posted. It is in fact an F3 Phase 1 drawing as we wanted to be fast to market with the information and didn't take the time to draw an F7 as the F3 was already done... haste makes waste. As noted on the poster the details will be correct for the particular road being produced but thanks nevertheless for your keen observations Simon.

 

Jerry Kimble

jkimble@atlaso.com

1-908-687-9590 ext. 7118

Atlas Model Railroad Company

Coordinator Sales/Marketing/Product Development

 

 

 

I have to add my $.02 to this thread.  I used to be the biggest advocate of a lower gear ratio, and for single-motored units I still am.  BUT...

In every instance as the units get some wear, the dual motor drives do not start and stop as smoothly as single motor.   [...]  when starting, one truck will start, the unit will jerk, and then the second truck will start.   Stopping is the same, one truck will stop and the unit will jerk to stop.   It is noticable on slow starts and stops.

I've seen this too Jim.  And with a lower gear ratio this could still happen, maybe worse.  With their Legacy diesels Lionel found the answer to this problem, in fact they knew it 60 years ago.  BACK-DRIVABLE worm gears on the motor shafts, so the motors can help each other instead of fighting each other.  Jerry if you have stuttering or lurching problems with the lower gear ratio this is the answer.  Or, use only one motor with a big flywheel.  Which brings me to my next point...

mounting a motor vertically, horizontally, or upside down and backwards cannot affect an electric motor

True Bob.  But locomotives are longer than they are tall.  The horizontal mounting allows the motor to be as large as possible, which means MORE TORQUE.  Gears multiply torque but I'm talking about starting torque from zero RPM.  Not to mention the horizontal layout leaves a lot more room for big flywheels AND a detailed cab interior.

 

Bottom line:  10,000,000 scale model railroaders aren't wrong.  Best accepted engineering practice is a horizontally mounted motor flanked by dual flywheels and worms driving truck-mounted gear "cassettes."  Interchangeable wheelsets are another plus of this system.  Atlas knows this, given their experience in HO & N; their O-gauge SW has earned praise from day one.  Start with the switcher.  Substitute a name-brand motor and new truck cassettes with the correct spacing for Blombergs.  It would have set the performance standard for an F unit in O scale and created a solid foundation for updated GPs too.  Another opportunity lost.  Oh well, maybe in 2030 they'll redesign it again.  

 

if the vertical two motor drive is so superior to any other drive as Atlas claims, why are they not using it in all of their HO and N scale engines?

Jerry, I appreciate your comment about not discussing possible new products on Forums etc; as I understand it also, Atlas don't respond to "wishlist"-type emails with modeller's pet favourite suggestions - fully understandable as every single modeller could come up with different items!!
So I certainly wasn't expecting any sort of "ooh yes, good idea" reply to my suggestion of a CF7 but just 'putting it out there' that such a type might be much appreciated, hopefully by many more modellers than me alone!!!....

As long as we're nitpicking, PRR's first F3s were phase II, and all PRR F3s had streamlined (small) number boards. There was an excellent article on PRR Fs in the PRR technical and historical society mag a few years back. It would be nice if a pilot was offered with coupler doors, as most (if not all) PRR Fs came that way as built. There was a pair (9518 and 9519) of F3s with "freight" pilots ordered for pusher service on the curve. They were eventually equipped with "custom" coupler doors by the Altoona shops. Later, all doors were removed.

 

Simon

To quote Hans Landa from "Inglorious Ba$tards", "OOOOOhhhhhhhh, that's a BINGO". 

 

I'm an HO modeler.  I LOVE Atlas locomotives, and I bought two ALCo S-2 switchers with ESU Loc-sound about four months back.  Absolutely stunning models, and amongst the best running diesels in my fleet. 

 

I also own three Atlas GP9s (two powered, one dummy) in three rail that I had converted by Atlas to fixed pilots.  I also own an A-B-B-A set of Atlas F-3s in three rail, with the A units powered (added the fixed pilots).  Compared to the HO models (I also have other Atlas product going back to their KATO produced GP7s), the drives in these locomotive flat out suck.  Now keep in mind I'm comparing the three rail O product to the gold standard in HO.   

 

Low starting torque, jack rabbit start at 1 mph, and then if you put a substantial train behind them, very difficult to accelerate prototypically.  Some of that may be the TAS EOB boards that were installed, don't know, and at this point, don't really care.  If all you want to do is accelerate up to speed, and then run in circles at a set speed with the cruise control engaged, sure, the twin motor drives are adequate.  Not all of us operate that way.   

 

Dan Dawdy from "O Scale Resource" had success in wiring the motors in series, and had I decided to stick with three rail, I would have done that modification.  But all that is doing is putting lipstick on a pig.

 

I have not sold off my Atlas locomotives, yet.  I've been toying with the thought of putting a two rail single motor drive in them, with the appropriate DCC sound decoder, and making them two rail.  I have not figured out why I would want to do that (I have a basement sized HO railroad to finish), but Jay Criswell's drives have me intrigued, and who knows, maybe I might do some storeable modules in O two rail out in the garage.

 

So, glad that Jerry Kimble is here as the spin master, but he needs to go spend some time with his HO and N counterparts to learn what a real quality drive consists of.  

Regards,

GNNPNUT 

I have many diesels, Atlas, MTH, Lionel, 3rd Rail, in 3R. I also modeled HO and N scale in years past. I know in my experience in running what I own and have owned... the single horizontal drive is far superior in smooth starts and slow speed performance. Currently my 3rd Rail FP7's are the best running engines I own...even running them as an ABA consist with 2 powered units. Super slow starts, super smooth, super quiet, and not even the Legacy MU consist measure up to the performance of those single horizontal drives.

Well said, GNNPNUT.

Regards,

Ed

 

Still, Jerry, those CF-7s might have awesome market reach but then it's not MY money invested in the tooling...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Milwaukee Road F7's should also come with passenger pilot.