I missed the MTH demise during Covid. What’s really happening?

Nobody really knows except for a select few within MTH.  Tons of rumors floating around, which one would you like?

Just because he sold off the building, announced his retirement and the last catalog, and sold off the archives does not mean there will be a “demise” to MTH. Not sure where you people come up with this stuff…

Chuckling! I want the rumor that has me buying new MTH products, in the designs I want, for the rest of my life. Duh! And better remote control....

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Nobody really knows except for a select few within MTH.  Tons of rumors floating around, which one would you like?

With Christmas around the corner, tell us the rumor with the happy ending.  Do you have one with a ringing bell like Polar Express?  😊

At the rate the auctioneer is going the only thing left to sell off will be the MTH name.  I can see Lionel acquiring it as they did Flyer.At least DCS has ongoing support in Michigan.

There was "Lionel by MTH" so seemingly a fair swap would be "MTH by Lionel".  My area dealers are moving over to Lionel.  As a local dealer one needs a regular supply of product to stay in business.   Lionel does a fair job at  keeping the dealer's shelves full.  All the good guys (Weaver, K-Line, Williams, etc.) are gone, Atlas 0 seems to be on life support being treated like a step child by the HO & N side of their business model.

The best pro active, all around 0 scale niche product out there IMO is Sunset 3rd Rail.

What it says to me is that 0 gauge trains do not have enough of a buying public.  In examining any issue it is always safe to follow the money to understand what is going on.

Norms change.  In my early years it was a status to have a  model railroad.

Today, in my social world, building a model railroad is not something I confess to.  There is just too much derision to overcome to run that flag up early in a budding personal or business relationship. 

TV reinforces that.  It seems like any TV character who is into a model train layout has a character flaw.

"TV reinforces that.  It seems like any TV character who is into a model train layout has a character flaw."

So true. The TV character always is some whacked out guy who either doesn't care about his family (only cares about trains) or someone who is genuinely nuts. While I have a met a few guys like this over the years I have been in this hobby, it is my opinion that they are in the minority. I guess a normal person who happens to like trains isn't an exciting enough character to put on TV.

@Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

With Christmas around the corner, tell us the rumor with the happy ending.  Do you have one with a ringing bell like Polar Express?  😊

Sorry, all my rumors are more along these lines.

Folks

People seem nice, when I talk about my trains..... Like anything else, can’t really care about what others think.

I don’t normally come here for laughs but consider it a blessing when that happens especially this year. Thanks for the laughs John

2020 is a year we need a few laughs in.

Seriously, I think it's hard to believe at this point that the company will continue in anything close to its present form.  The days of 200 page catalogues twice yearly seem likely to be over.  On the other hand, it seems entirely plausible that some of the tooling and some parts/replacement business will live into the future, at least partially, in some manner, for some time.  But we won't know until it has happened, and that won't be certain until a few years from now.  So carpe diem and enjoy what you've got right now.

One of the major problems with his closing the business  is that the tooling is in China and you can't bring it out of the country. so he would need a buyer before he closes or the tooling will likely disappear. RUMOR has it that Mike has been trying to sell for a while. it would be quite a commitment for anyone to buy it and spend the kind of time and money and over site of the Chinese factory. not a big fan of MTH but I do hate to see it disappear.

Carpe diem indeed!

I was hoping he's adopt me for Christmas and I could fly over to China for him to keep it going!

Hey, dream big.

@Tom Tee, your #1 new year resolution: get new friends!

@Hudson J1e posted:

"TV reinforces that.  It seems like any TV character who is into a model train layout has a character flaw."

So true. The TV character always is some whacked out guy who either doesn't care about his family (only cares about trains) or someone who is genuinely nuts. While I have a met a few guys like this over the years I have been in this hobby, it is my opinion that they are in the minority. I guess a normal person who happens to like trains isn't an exciting enough character to put on TV.

I thought everyone on this forum understood that we do have a DNA flaw that attracts us to toy trains.  Especially the larger trains.

Like insects drawn to a light bulb at night.

I've never had anyone make fun of the train hobby thing. 

I mean their is better low hanging fruit: people who yell at the TV; internet bloggers; people who dress up in fan gear for a sports game or tailgate; UFO and Alien believers; conspiracy theorists (take your pick on the subject); etc.  I know they are revered by some but we kinda pale when compared to them.

JMO

Tooling doesn't disappear in China only to magically reappear at a different factory years later. It disappears because it gets scrapped. Ultimately if this all goes on for too long that is what will happen to the MTH tooling, especially if the company closes without buyers lined up for the tooling. If the factories go dark then all bets are off about what happens next.

@Charlie posted:

Just because he sold off the building, announced his retirement and the last catalog, and sold off the archives does not mean there will be a “demise” to MTH. Not sure where you people come up with this stuff…

Best answer!

We're running out of time, though.  I bet the "over" on how many separate threads would be started before January 2021, with the exact same replies in each of them

@Marty R    All in good fun.....

@Notch 6 posted:

Tooling doesn't disappear in China only to magically reappear at a different factory years later.

I have no knowledge of this but from what you are saying, and from what I've read in other replies, is that the tooling cannot just leave China for some reason.  Who owns it?

@EscapeRocks posted:

Best answer!

We're running out of time, though.  I bet the "over" on how many separate threads would be started before January 2021, with the exact same replies in each of them

@Marty R    All in good fun.....

It is all in good fun. This is....... a forum where we talk about “our shared interest”.

MTH dying is on par with Ford dying if there were only 3 or 4 car companies Chevy,  Ford and Jaguar (Atlas) and Rolls Royce (the remaining big brass company)

if this was a car buff forum we’d be rehashing Fords demise.

Darn good reason why Made in the U.S. of America meant so much when Lionel still manufactured their trains in New Jersey.

I fail to understand why it can't still happen in Century 21 when you consider what the minimum wage is today?

"Tooling doesn't disappear in China only to magically reappear at a different factory years later. "

Actually, that is what happened to a small company that a friend of mine owned whose product was made in China.

John

@Frank Mulligan posted:

the tooling cannot just leave China for some reason.  Who owns it?

Essentially, the Chinese government.

The tooling made by...or shipped into...China becomes the possession of the Chinese.  It's how they control market competition on everything.

Stories abound in the early euphoric days of the China-sourcing hysteria.  Some opportunities didn't pan out very well.  When companies tried to retrieve the tooling they had supplied to the Chinese factory to obtain other manufacturing cost advantages, their efforts would be stymied into oblivion.  Some companies were told the equipment/tooling had been put into a container for return shipment to the U.S. of A..   It would never arrive, the shipping process had no...zip, nada...traceability, it simply...'disappeared'........like Jimmy Hoffa!

For tooling made in China, the company who requests it does the paying for it.  But as for "ownership"??...It's China.

What?...it's not a very honorable way to do  business?...

@Frank Mulligan posted:

I have no knowledge of this but from what you are saying, and from what I've read in other replies, is that the tooling cannot just leave China for some reason.  Who owns it?

Actually, that's a question for the ages.  Ask that question ten times, and you'll get ten different answers.  I know it's a total mystery to me.

I pretty sure that companies have moved tooling to different factories in China, it's just getting it out of China that seems to be the sticking point.  Given that fact, if you're going to manufacture a product in China that requires expensive one of a kind tooling, you have to be sure you're in it for the long haul, because you're locked into manufacturing there for the life of that product.

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

Darn good reason why Made in the U.S. of America meant so much when Lionel still manufactured their trains in New Jersey.

I fail to understand why it can't still happen in Century 21 when you consider what the minimum wage is today?

We as consumers need to look in the mirror to see the problem.  We want it cheap.  In the states the cost of an engine IMO could almost double due to labor, manufacturing, and environmental laws along with many factor that the Chinese factories don't have to deal with.

AFAIK Premier Steam has always been and continues to be made in Korea, not China.

Pete

Who would want to start a manufacturing business in the US? If you can put up with regulations, taxes, environmental rules, unions and the politicians then go right ahead and start your business. But don't expect to be competitive with your peers who make the same products overseas.  Just a fact of life!

Dave

Toy trains and model trains are still cool in my part of the world.

One of the coolest things to do the last few years is to visit Corner Field Hobby/Museum.

In a non-covid world, people stop over around the holidays just to run trains....with different generations of their and my family present.

I model/collect with pride.

Don't give in to them, Tom.  Stay Golden!!

Back again.

I'm ready...

Aren't Lionel 6464s being Made in U.S. of America today?  I'm asking since I haven't kept up with Follow the Leader.

And what about setting up shop in Canada, their $ being valued less than their U.S. counterpart?

dkdkrd:  All right!  If I receive an invite do I have to wear my mask?

@david1 posted:

Who would want to start a manufacturing business in the US? If you can put up with regulations, taxes, environmental rules, unions and the politicians then go right ahead and start your business. But don't expect to be competitive with your peers who make the same products overseas.  Just a fact of life!

Dave

Hey Dave , I hope somehow some of the ashes from the model railroading pipelines and small business closings will rise anew .                                  All the things  you mention about puting up with for starting up new business are the things that have kept us from becoming an overwhelming waste land and total disregard for people like our so called peers.            When travel around the world is supplied by the US Military , you get a good vision of what is real ( a fact of life ) in the world.

I totally agree with you on the competitive price issues Dave.        There are many different angles that have contributed to this kind of issue.     Who knows what the future will bring for our financial future ............just as long as WE  THE  PEOPLE don't  lose our way along the path.

Keep those rails shiny , keep the wheels well oiled and rolling and live healthy and hale .   Happy Holidays.

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

Aren't Lionel 6464s being Made in U.S. of America today?

And what about setting up shop in Canada, their $ being valued less than their U.S. counterpart?

Jason Shron of Rapido Trains (HO, located in Ontario, Canada) said that if he made his trains in Canada, the trains would cost more.

Lionel makes some commemorative 6464's in the U.S. and they run from $84.99 to $94.99.

Rusty

If the tooling gets left behind and scrapped, that will say a lot (to me, at least) about the economics and shift in our hobby.  To me, the shells are becoming worth less and less. Sure, breakage occurs, but most of us treat our engines very well. The shells are merely holders for the real value inside, especially now in the electronics era, much like desktop computer cases.  My nephew builds gaming computers for him and his friends, and they're seemingly constantly upgrading them with faster and better components.

Maybe there really is an equivalent business for the DCS spin-off of MTH to provide PS4, 5, and 6 over the next couple of decades that simply replace PS 1, 2, and 3. I've got several older TMCC engines that I like and don't see a new to replace with a $600 - $700 modern equivalent just due to better sounds, speed control, 4 chuffs, and/or whistle steam. But, if I can retain the chassis and shell and pop in upgrades for half the price of new, I'd probably upgrade all my engines at some point.

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

Darn good reason why Made in the U.S. of America meant so much when Lionel still manufactured their trains in New Jersey.

I fail to understand why it can't still happen in Century 21 when you consider what the minimum wage is today?

Mike Wolf lead the move to overseas train manufacturing in O guage. Why?..... because Korea made a more detailed, accurate, smooth running model, and thats where the market was heading.

This probably saved O scale, as the smaller scales became more popular due to their prototypical accuracy and smooth operating characterstics.

Lionel had no choice but to jump on the "scale model bandwagon", even as far as to make the use some of Mikes tooling.

This keeps coming up over and over. The are far bigger manufacturing jobs, in everything else... that still comes from China.

Manufacturing in America is long gone. We do warehouse a **** of a lot of stuff though.

Ok... my topic moved from our toys to the worlds ills. Make no mistake, they are tied together. We made a choice to build cheaper.... That said.... is there a way back?

That said... we/they moved it to China and failed. That was a decision. If the abandoned stuff resurfaces and makes me MTH quality stuff, I’ll buy it before I’ll buy Lionel’s half baked attempts at Peanuts “made in USA” stuff that was less detailed and less robust. There must be a way to bring it back and make it goodly!

@RickO posted:

Mike Wolf lead the move to overseas train manufacturing in O gauge. Why?..... because Korea made a more detailed, accurate, smooth running model, and that's where the market was heading.

I thought Jerry Williams, John Smith and Dick Breglar were importing before MTH was incorporated.  When you have time, compare a Williams heavyweight baggage car to an MTH heavyweight baggage car.  A clone?  John

@rattler21 posted:

I thought Jerry Williams, John Smith and Dick Breglar were importing before MTH was incorporated.  When you have time, compare a Williams heavyweight baggage car to an MTH heavyweight baggage car.  A clone?  John

I find a lot of resemblances of general drive train construction of Williams and MTH Railking models. Then again, I have also put Lionel MPC shells on the much more reliable Williams locomotives.

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

Darn good reason why Made in the U.S. of America meant so much when Lionel still manufactured their trains in New Jersey.

I fail to understand why it can't still happen in Century 21 when you consider what the minimum wage is today?

What you fail to understand is the difference between minimum wage over here, and minimum wage over “there” ......when you do learn that difference, ....this will be your face....😳

Pat