Informed decision on a vintage addition

Lionel steam engine with road number 2025 has a good reputation.  John in Lansing, ILL

When you are buying 70-year old locos, sight unseen your buying a pig-in-a-poke.  Depends on care and amount of use it has received.  My oldest loco is 78 years old (a prewar 224) and the next 69 (a 1950 736.  Wear has taken a toll.  When I converted the 736 to DCS, I discovered that the running gear had reached the point that it could not run slowly, so I converted it back to E-unit and it graces a shelf.  The 224 we occasionally run under a Christmas tree. I have some other pre-1960 locos, which I haven't powered up in years, since all I run now is DCS.  Before buying anything, I'd strongly suggest you try it out. 

Lots of solid, good runners from 1950s can be found in clean condition for well under $200.  With minimal maintenance, they will run forever.  Aside from the much pricier 773, however, "good detail" in that vintage is a unicorn. 

I would look for  nice 736 or a turbine-781,782 or 2020.

My 2 favorite postwar loco’s are the 736 Berk and the 2046 Hudson. Both good runners and easy to work on. You may have to take them apart and do some cleaning and lubing but they should run decent after that. If you have to change out an E-unit or the smoke unit it is not too bad. Lots of help to be had from the great folks here too.

Kevin

I loved and still love my first Lionel train from 1948. A freight set pulled by a wonderful 2026 2-6-2 steam engine. That's only my humble opinion of course. Don

I have a Williams by Bachmann up for sale on the For Sale forum that is a replica of the famed 1940s Lionel 726 2-8-4 Berkshire. It's conventional, cheap ($150), and a great runner. Take it with a Pennsy or Lionel Lines tender (or both).

scale rail posted:

I loved and still love my first Lionel train from 1948. A freight set pulled by a wonderful 2026 2-6-2 steam engine. That's only my humble opinion of course. Don

That is my first train also.  Sets on the top display shelf.  Has not been ran in about 10 years, but will be in couple of weeks when I have an open house running only post war trains from my youth.  Should be an interesting afternoon.

Karl

any of the Pre/Postwar steamers are great runners. 224E,675/2025 , 1666,2026,2037,736,2046. 

jim pastorius posted:

I would look for  nice 736 or a turbine-781,782 or 2020.

You mean 681, and 682...  no 781 or 782 turbines... 

 I would throw the 671 in there too.

Odenville Bill posted:

Hey Y'all,

....  I have an engine from 1960 and one from 1984.  Along with this expansion I would like to add a late 30's to early 50's engine and tender that was not the base model when new.  I want something with good details, runs both directions, and does not belong in a museum.  I intend to run the stuffings out of it.  I see a lot of nice looking engines on E*** in my price range (under $200).  Problem is I don't know which engine to chase. ...

could you list the locomotives you currently run aside from the year the model was made?  since you also describe your future acquisition as only an engine and tender, what sort of rolling stock are you looking to pull?  late prewar and early postwar O gauge locomotives vary quite a bit in perceived scale.  with a late prewar tender (30's), you will likely have to deal with pre-knuckle couplers.

Lionel 646, 2046 and 675 steamers are usually safe choices and can be had for around $100-150. 675 with baldwin disc drivers are usually smooth runners but lack magnetraction. Not an issue if you dont plan to run a huge long train though.

I researched this awhile back. The early 2025/675s (they’re identical) were notorious for being good runners and very reliable. Even Greenberg’s repair manual said this. I bought the more desirable 1947 year with its accompanying cars on the bay for $80 and it runs like a Rolex.  I also learned what years certain steamers had features that interested me (like dual worm drives and the heater bulbs etc). I would recommend buying Greenberg’s repair manual and one of their guides if you don’t already have them.  I’ve been very happy with my purchases, but have cleaned oiled and repaired them all at some early point (which is part of the fun).  

 I own the postwar 675, 786, and 681, they all run great and put out a lot of smoke. Just be aware that the 681 Turbine is a bit on the small (low) -side, so certain passenger cars will look too tall behind it. I use K-Line "Streamliners" for a perfect match (mine are PRR "Fleet of Modernism", which is correct for this PRR Turbine).

The OP said he wants one engine that is good and he can run hard.  Before I moved I had almost one of everything PW Lionel(except the 773) but when I tore down the layout and move I had to make some really tough choices. I like 736 especially the way the motor and gear train is laid out. Just about the smoothest and best puller I have. Want another. I have a 726rr but no magnetraction and not as smooth, I think.  Second would be the turbines but that is not to say the others won't do the job. I keep about 8-9  freight cars and a caboose most of the time on the track and switch out engines. That is what they did in the old days.

Thank you all.  This is wonderful guys.  I'm surfing for details on everything mentioned.  Good point on the couplers Overlandflyer.  I have a Texas Special 1055 (1960) with forward only, and a Rio Grande 8213 (1984).  My modest rolling stock consists of one spotlight car (my favorite), one tank car, two tenders, three box cars, three gondolas, three cabooses, and a cursed yellow flatcar.  All low end Lionel.  I also own a modern LC+ light Mikado that is taking an extended vacation from action.  I have never seen a 40's - 50's engine in person.  I think that since I intend to run my old Christmas presents, a venture into an earlier is an easy step.  No new electronics.  No new wires.  But importantly, add a touch of old charm.

What diameter curves do you have?  Also, do you like switching, running the train yourself "hands-on", or just turn it on and watch?  Nothing from that era is going to run as well as your LC+ Mikado, assuming that newer engine is working correctly.

I'm sure you're aware that a prewar loco will have different couplers.  Not a big deal if you substitute a postwar tender (unless you have to change the front coupler on a switcher-type locomotive.)  I'll refrain from making a specific recommendation until you tell us more about what you want to do.

For me, it's a tie between the 646 and 736, both with Magnetraction. Arnold

If you are looking for steam I have both a Lionel 675 for $170.00 and a Lionel 2025 for $160.00.  For Diesels a Lionel 2243 Santa Fe AB Diesel pair for $200.00. All three are in Excellent condition. All great runners that will last a very long time if properly serviced and maintained. I am an Independent Lionel and MTH Service Center. All my stuff gets serviced before going up for sale. E-mail is in my profile. 

If you're thinking old-school conventional, I'd suggest looking at Williams (now Williams by Bachmann) Golden Memories catalog. Here's a link to their 2011 catalog. The Golden Memories section is the 2nd half of the catalog after their standard stuff, and it shows all the remakes of classic Lionel items from the 40s and 50s. Again, if you like conventional, they're hard to beat. The modern motors are smoother, maintenance-free can motors, and the reversing units are quiet unlike the buzzing e-units of the originals. Prices aren't bad.

More excellent questions Ted.  Most of my track is O27.  I have some O72 coming down the mountain.  My switches are #022.  I mostly work the transformer old school.  I switch cars, load/unload with a big crane, and repeat.  The new addition will include a long fast run.  I think my LC+ Mikado is wonderful.  It looks so good going slow.  At this point, the only thing ruled out is modern track.  Tube rail on plywood for me.  

With O-27 track, you don't want a Berkshire.

Do you want a locomotive that is representative of the times, or would you want a PRR look.  If PRR, get a 675 or 2025 2-6-2 (Same loco, one number for O and the other for O-27.  The turbine is not representative.  It is a model of a locomotive that fans like to see but was such an operating failure that there was never more than the single S-1.

Representative of typical American steam power are the 2026 2-6-2 and the 646/2046/2056 4-6-4.

Don't buy a 1950 or later 675, 2025, 2026, 2036 or 2037 unless you want a 2-6-4 with a cheap looking trailing truck - really bad.  The earlier locos had a scale model trailing truck.

If you want Magnetraction, you need to buy 1950 or later, but not 1951.  I would exclude the 2-6-4's, so my recommendation is that you buy a Hudson.

mlaughlinnyc posted:

With O-27 track, you don't want a Berkshire.

 

Why? My 736 looks and runs fine on O27 track? 

And the later 675/2035s rear trucks are easily swapped and the older better looking trucks are cheap, but the earlier Baldwin drivers do look better, and the the motors run quieter.

Of all the post war Lionel steamers I've owned none was more reliable or a better puller than a 2037.

Can I buy a running prewar engine for a couple hundred?  If I found a great prewar engine, I would probably need the matching cars.  The all metal cars are cool.  I believe they all run on o27 and a transformer.  I understand couplers changed.  Is it a SIN to put postwar couplers on a prewar anything?  I have not looked at prewar just because I assumed they were out of reach.    I said "late 30's to early 50's" in a quest for more details.   I have read-up on every engine number mentioned in this thread and a couple emails.  I like separate handrails.  Stuff like that.  

Things may get tough now.  If you had $200 to spend on any Lionel engine made before 1951 that you intended to run often, what would you buy.  

I always wanted a prewar 226e but they are over 200. A 221 always facinated me its a small nyc dreyfuss streamliner which is iconic and under 200. For couplers there is a lionel adapter that just fits on the prewar coupler that will mate to a knuckle coupler with no permanent modification needed.

224E is always a good deal.

Either of the small Hudsons would be a good bet. The one on the left uses a Berkshire shell. Don

Unless your layout is pool-table flat with absolutely uniform voltage, a $200 postwar steam loco isn't going to make it around on its own without stalling.  You'll have to jockey the throttle all the time.  If that doesn't bother you, then my first choice would be a 1666 or 2026.

Most of the locos suggested above can be clumsy to switch with.  Sometimes the motors start turning before the e-unit cycles.  They're all geared pretty tall, and are happiest streaking along at 40-60 mph in a straight line.  A small change in voltage or a slight grade will cause a major change in speed, that's just the nature of the beast.  If you can hold out longer and scrape together at least $600, I would look for a prewar 227 or 228 (hi-rail B6 switcher with the cab number 8976.)  It might look odd with your other trains because it's is actually a scale-sized model.  You should also probably put a postwar knuckle coupler on the front.

Honestly, given your curves, graded track, and budget, I would be looking at another LionChief Plus, or RailKing with PS2 / PS3.  Probably something with four or six driving wheels like a switcher, Hudson, or Pacific.   The long rigid wheelbase of a Berkshire, Mohawk, or Northern with rubber tires on both wheels won't be able to skid easily around those O27 curves.  The speed control will be working full time just to overcome the sudden increase in friction when you go from straight to curve, and you may find yourself changing tires often.  By all means, do what makes you happy, but most of the better running traditional-sized steam locos were made in the last 20 years.  My $.02.

Ted S posted:

Unless your layout is pool-table flat with absolutely uniform voltage, a $200 postwar steam loco isn't going to make it around on its own without stalling.  You'll have to jockey the throttle all the time.  If that doesn't bother you, then my first choice would be a 1666 or 2026.

Most of the locos suggested above can be clumsy to switch with.  Sometimes the motors start turning before the e-unit cycles.  They're all geared pretty tall, and are happiest streaking along at 40-60 mph in a straight line.  A small change in voltage or a slight grade will cause a major change in speed, that's just the nature of the beast.  If you can hold out longer and scrape together at least $600, I would look for a prewar 227 or 228 (hi-rail B6 switcher with the cab number 8976.)  It might look odd with your other trains because it's is actually a scale-sized model.  You should also probably put a postwar knuckle coupler on the front.

Honestly, given your curves, graded track, and budget, I would be looking at another LionChief Plus, or RailKing with PS2 / PS3.  Probably something with four or six driving wheels like a switcher, Hudson, or Pacific.   The long rigid wheelbase of a Berkshire, Mohawk, or Northern with rubber tires on both wheels won't be able to skid easily around those O27 curves.  The speed control will be working full time just to overcome the sudden increase in friction when you go from straight to curve, and you may find yourself changing tires often.  By all means, do what makes you happy, but most of the better running traditional-sized steam locos were made in the last 20 years.  My $.02.

While it is true that their powertrains are geared higher and their speed isn't regulated with a computer, a well serviced example of any of the common recommendations received is so far from the horror story presented and are very enjoyable in their own right. @Odenville Bill, take that 2¢ and put it right in the "Take a penny, leave a penny" tray.

I concur. Pre/post war Lionel, manual transmissions, dual point Mallorys, straight inboards etc is how i roll. 

https://photos.google.com/shar...R3FlRlRpWXNTNVpTVE1n

I wouldn't call my platform pool table flat, but close enough. 224E and 225E running all on their own. No throttle jocking needed, as are all my Pre and Postwar Steam.

I never said that traditional pre- and postwar trains weren't enjoyable.  I'm sorry I couldn't view your video Steamer, it just sits there trying to load.

I challenge you both to an experiment...  Measure the longest mainline path on your layout.  Turn on the throttle, get it running smoothly, and see if the loco will complete 10 laps at an average speed of 25 scale mph without stalling.  For an extra challenge, try it running light with no freight cars.  If it makes it around, you'll notice that it slows to a crawl in some places and hurtles along in others.  Yes vintage trains have a charm of their own, but these were toys meant for children, and very much meant to be run "hands-on."  Many of these locos bear the scars from times when they got out of control- broken marker lights, bent pilot steps, bent roofs, etc.

Spotting a car at an accessory like the cattle pen is another challenge.  Diesels are pretty good.  Dual-motored locos are very good!  But most steam are a little balky.  I had a Lionel 675 (the earliest 1947 version.)  The motor was smooth and quiet, but it had a habit of starting to roll before the E-unit cycled.  Sometimes the E-unit would cycle while the loco was still moving slowly.  This made it difficult to uncouple or spot a car where you wanted to.

I agree that computer control isn't needed, but a low gear ratio is a good thing.  The MTH train set locos circa 1999 didn't have speed control.  Neither did early versions of the K-Line A5 switcher.  But they are smoother and better controlled than any traditional-sized train made before 1951.  I'm not a fan of the rubber tires, and replacement parts will be a problem 20 years from now.  But on balance the newer locos are better runners.  The original poster wanted an informed decision, so I don't mind being the devil's advocate. 

Also, I would like to add that I have nothing against postwar.  I went the scale route for about 10 years, and now I find myself gravitating back toward traditional O gauge.

My brother and I operated two different O27 layouts from 1979 until 1996.  We made an effort to run realistically, with switching operations, etc.  I loved the look and feel of those Postwar steam locos, but none of them ran as well as our diesels.  Well, my uncle's 773 did, with its 18:1 worm gear drive.  But the overhang was crazy on our O27 curves, and the price was too high even for Santa Claus!  I used to say, "Give me a steam engine that runs like a diesel."  I love and prefer steam.  The 2036 and 681 Turbine weren't too bad... the Turbine was odd-looking.  But nothing runs like a diesel.

never thought you meant that Ted. The older trains run reliably and consistently if you run feeder wires every few feet. With cars or not my locomotives run without adjusting the transformers.

i would look at a 2035... classic Lionel, should be very reasonably priced and would fit nicely into your present collection.

good luck... gary

just a personal preference, Lionel 1666. They were available pre and post war. they can be had for under $100.

I have 4-5 of these and the most I paid was $60 for a pre war version with box couplers. They are good runners

and fairly good pullers.

In the two days of this thread, I've read up on 12 suggested road numbers.   Here is the short list: 646, 681, 736, 2046, and I keep watching a video of a 221.  @NYCBuffalo, you may have started something else - prewar!  Does my love of elevation changes require magnetraction?  My worst grade is 16%.  With the few cars I pull, it is not needed now.  I know that when my LC+ Mikado returns, I will park the 80's vintage steamer.  I hope to put many miles on my 1055 Texas Special.  No smoke, no sounds, no traction, and pulling it's original lineup.  In the study of recommended engines, I entered a typo engine number and found a 50's vintage 0-4-0 switcher.  It had lots of rails and a slope back tender with rails too.  Cool!  Anyone have knowledge on what that was?  Did they come with front and rear operating couplers ?  Did they work?  I can see my gun collection is stuck till further notice.

221 is 1946&7 production.

sounds like you came across a 1615 or other Postwar switcher, or possibly a Prewar 1662. All are great runners. What ever engine you decide to go after, take your time and check the for sale forum and the bay of e.....deals are out there.