Just discovered something [you all may already know]

When they're at different levels the way you orient them seems to make a difference. Have you tried them close together? On my Christmas layout I have a Bridge, Powermaster and a Legacy Powermaster all within 2ft of each other and they all work fine. They all are laying pointing in the same direction.

The powermaster gets it's signal from the Legacy base. So if It's under the layout I think you have to treat it the same as a track under a track where the airborne signal from house ground is shielded from it. So if you put an insulated wire connected to the house power ground connection over it where ever it is under there, it should work.

Correct me if I have it wrong anyone...

Thanks guys.  Cjack, will try that.  Now I am using them only for conventional.  You have to have PowerMasters 7 feet or more away from a PowerMaster Bridge.  I got them too close one time, poor signal.  Put them apart, instant response.  [Lionel instructions were right]

The Legacy PowerMaster gets it's signal from the command base.

The TMCC PowerMaster receives a 27mhz signal from a CAB1 or the Legacy PowerMaster Bridge.

 

FWIW, when I had some old PowerMasters and the PowerMaster bridge, I found that they had to be a few feet apart for reliable operation.  When I had them next to each other, I had problems.  I believe somewhere in the documentation they mention 6 feet.

 

 

Yes the 6 or 7 ft range is mentioned in the manual but I'm running them at 2ft apart but the bridge is vertical and the powermaster is horizontal. with both of them horizontal they didn't work to well. Since I stood it up they work perfectly. My powermaster is an old 135 watt version. May be worth a try. YMMV

When you change the angle between them, you also change the polarization of the antenna and reduce the signal between them.  That's probably why they work.

 

My thought exactly when I set it up. My first post here neglected the fact that they had different orientations (senior moment I guess).

Ron

Worked on the placement this afternoon.  PowerMasters have to be on the same level as the PowerMaster Bridge.  I tried below the layout as before.  Ran and "antenna" above it, on same level and nothing.  Raised them above the Bridge, nothing.  Same level over 7 feet away on another end of layout, works great.  I am using my two the CAB2 Legacy remotes.  They control better than the old TMCC base and CAB1's did.

The CAB1 talked directly to the PowerMaster, the TMCC BASE1 never gets into the conversation in that case.  The location of the Legacy PowerMaster Bridge and the PowerMasters shouldn't be quite that critical, I've seen them work 25 or so feet away from the bridge with no issues.

 

Will communicate distances.  They just have to be on the same plane.  When I used to old TMCC base, the red light did flicker on the base and the PowerMasters but was restricted to CAB1's.  Went with the Bridge.  Now it flickers and the PowerMasters flicker at the same time if on the same plane.  Put lower or higher than the Bridge, no signal.  Put them closer than 6 or 7 feet and get partial signal.  If I could extend the Y cable, I would move the Bridge farther from the Legacy base and then put everything out of sight.  Layout is 14 X 20.  Got plenty of room. 

You can get DB-9 cables in longer lengths. I think you need a male to female, yes? From bridge to Y cable.

Choose your length, many vendors out there, this is one.

Thanks Moonman.  That will be a big help.

Wow never heard of this phenomena. Whats really hilarious reading this in (my case) is that I have a Powermaster bridge, a 135 brick, a 135 Powermaster, and my Legacy Base all together stacked 2 high on a 12" shelf, all right next to a postwar 275w ZW and have no problems running. I'll try to add a picture of it tomorrow when i get home, but now that I have read this, I'll bet the layout won't work. lol.

As promised some pics. Can some one explain why it works when it shouldn't according to this thread? Not trying to sound snarky, just trying to learn. Been running like this for 15 years. Bridge is outboard top, powermaster underneath it.

 

With RF, the more cluttered the better .

Jim, for about 10 minutes after I added the Bridge, it ran great [removed TMCC base and CAB1's].  Then suddenly would work off and on.  Watched the Bridge red light flicker and the PowerMaster only once in a while.  Separated them about 7 feet, PowerMaster started flashing as fast as the Bridge.  Put PowerMasters [two, track 1 and track 2] undr layout 7 feet away, no signal to the PowerMasters at all.  Put them back on the same plain, great signal.  Put them up 4 feet higher than Bridge, no signal at all.  ??????  Using PW ZW [one PowerMaster for each track handle] like you dedicated to these alone.  Crazy.    

 

FYI: All my commons are bonded for all tracks for all transformers [phased].  These are bonded to electrical ground that is bonded to house ground and to a driven ground.  Layout is in separate building in back yard.  #4 underground service entrance cable buried to the building.  Nothing but lights, small heatpump [220V 15 Amp, all required] and layout on the cable.  Heatpump comes on and lights don't flicker.  So, no problem with enough "juice".  No problem with ground.  All designed as "overkill" by Electrical Inspector Supervisor.   

This is where it gets weirder. What you are looking at is my power district for block 1. Its where it all started hence the nomenclature.(forgive me as a temp installation has become quasi-permanent) My other powerdistribution districts are across the room, 6" above floor level, and 3 feet below railhead, consisting of 3 135 powermasters with matching bricks for the mainline, passing sidings and the Ironville Dogbone, 4 SC-2's and the relay matrix (powered by pw 30 watt trsfmrs) for signaling the #1 mainline, alony with a dedicated 30 watt pw transformer for a steam clean shop and a modern bascule bridge. 6 feet west and 2.5 feet down of power district #1 is the Sporting Valley power distribution board consisting of a KW and 4 SC-2's used strictly for the Sporting Valley accessory yard, and the town lighting. Everything I have read about Legacy and TMCC signal in the past months since I reentered the hobby says I can't do this and nothing will communicate correctly. Not complaining, but could the pundits be 'gasp' inaccurate? Don't get me wrong, I did a lot of work to get TMCC-1 operate correctly when I first built the IVSV+S. Most of it centered around my upper level where it crosses over the lower level, and the infamous BackShop. The main thing that has my curiosity in this discussion thread is the component placement sensitivity that others seem to be experiencing.   

Legacy hasn't been around for 15 years, so I seriously doubt you've been running the Legacy PowerMaster Bridge for that long.  If you had Legacy before 2006, you also had it before Lionel had it.

 

RF is funny, moving one of those one inch is likely to cause a problem.  The issue is that the transmitter overloads the receiver and it can't read the signal properly.  Your stack may provide just enough attenuation to work.

 

The bottom line here is, frequently the PowerMaster Bridge being too close to the old TMCC PowerMasters is a problem.  Touting a one-time configuration that happens to work really isn't useful and is more of a Red Herring than a help.  Many of us, including myself, have personally seen the problems of having them too close together.  Add to the fact that the product documentation also states that is a known issue, and it's obviously advisable to have them separated.

Ok, John, yes you are correct. The layout has been in place for 15 years, and the Command base and PM/PH had been in that position since then and removed and replaced by Legacy when it was released. Chuck Horan gave me the Legacy setup to Demonstrate to the masses when it was released (way back when with the first Legacy Big Boys came out).
The Bridge I have is a prototype given to me by John Z to wring out, about 6 months after Legacy was released. Its still shining brightly. Maybe the as produced model is different from my Beta model? I have no idea as I haven't had the need to check out a Bridge as produced. 
  

Do the new Legacy Powermasters still require using the Powermaster Bridge when connected to a Legacy Cab-2 Setup?  Or has the frequency of the Legacy Powermasters been changed to match the 2.4 Ghz of the Legacy base?

The Legacy Powermaster does not require the bridge.

Thanks crood58,.  Saves a bit of money and some space, as well.