LC+... a very basic question

David, I think it has to do with the platform. 

I recently acquired a 2010 LCCA Santa Fe Alco pair which has TMCC, if you look at the year it was produced Lionel offered many other Alco pairs. The Alcos were entry level/postwar inspired units so they had TMCC and not full blown Legacy.

Fast forward to now, the LCCA B&M units share a LC+ body...  just a function of production cost right? 

I just have a Legacy system (plus a LC Percy for my daughters ) but a LC+ unit wouldn't be something I'd even consider.

I'd like to pick up a LC+ unit, just to get some running time with them.  OTOH, I'm not interested unless it's something that really hits home with me and will mix with all the scale stuff, most LC+ stuff is semi-scale.

Maybe someday...

This is just me theorizing with the direction of Lionel on LC/+:  

If you run legacy, and it does what you want at a cost you can afford, there really isn't any reason to change any time soon.  It seems LC+ is geared more to an entry level market, lower costs, competitive with just going conventional, and it brings remote command to the hands of people that may have otherwise been priced out of the market.  

As for the future of the product, the radio link that exists in LC right now is capable of offering all the functionality in a legacy system many times over.  I see more features being added over time until,  in say 10 years or some such, a new full function system is introduced to replace Legacy, running on the 'new' system.  All the LC+ out there would run on this system, but you would then need a "Legacy track controller" to connect between systems. 

More simply, there is also the fact that there is an expected standard in Legacy locomotives, and if they think that a a model won't live up to that standard it is good business not to make it.  You don't want someone to buy something and then say " Yea, I had a legacy engine, it doesn't do anything special"  You want it to be a top end, all the bells and whistles, model.  

Actually, I think Lionel is going all the way by using LC+.  I view it as a far superior system to get what I want because it provides good loco control without all the programming and complexity (and cost).  It is simple, robust, and so far, absolutely problem and hassle free. 

I run Legacy and DCS locos only conventionally, but In fact have/had a complete Legacy setup in a closet.  It came with my first O gauge setup I bought eight years ago.  I played with it and determined it would be as much about setting it up and using it as about running trains.  Fine if you want it that, and many do - I have friends that like to play with the electronics as much as the trains, I think, but not me . . . 

For alot of us, LC+'s use of radio, rather than rail-borne carrier digital signals, simplifies things and its lack of all the controls beyond cruise-speed and couplers is all the control we want.  And there is this personal note: in forty years as an electrical engineer, I learned that anytime anyone mentions the words "ground plane" when talking about control electronics, we're going to be spending a lot of money and time just keeping it working.  

I hope, eventually, all Lionel locos have an LC+ option.  I'd pay extra for it.  

I think LC was originally meant to target bringing in more hobbyists, first time and one time buyers. From the latest catalogs it appears LC sets are replacing conventional sets as there were very few conventional sets listed and a lot of LC sets. LC is remote control only and LC+ is remote or conventional control. Each has a specific remote, no one remote to operate all sets. Good for families with multiple kids, each can have their own remote providing they have different types of sets/engines.

Both LC & LC+ seem to be sparking interest by the more devoted hobbyists as well, possibly due to the competitive pricing. I think there will be many devoted hobbyists that will have no interest. I am currently in the 'it might be fun to have one, but I don't really want one' camp.  

If there is an upgrade path without purchasing a new system, I don't know what it is? The only upgrading I see with the LC and LC+ is buying more sets or engines. As far as I know there are no LC+ sets, only engines. LC+ may be somewhat competitive price wise with some RailKing engines for some people? However, there is an upgrade path to full DCS with RailKing engines.

The LC and LC+ are nice sets and engines with some nice features, but I think it's like a separate line for a specific market share and not meant to be incorporated into Legacy. Just run as is, although LC and LC+ will work on a DCS or Legacy layout with 18 VAC powering the tracks. Just have to use the LC or LC + remote that they came with to operate them. 

Of course this is all purely my own thoughts and speculation, I really have no idea what Lionel is up to? That is other than trying to promote the hobby and sell more trains, I think we can be pretty sure of that one.

I'm not sure what kind of demographic I'm in but I'm sold. I'm not new to the hobby. I am a conventional operator using ancient ZW & KW transformers, with a mix of post-war and new engines & rolling stock, running on a layout that is what I consider to be an "average" 25' x 18'. I still have a few tight radius curves and one 042 return loop so I'm kind of shut out of the scale size stuff, unless I want to completely rebuild my layout, which I don't, and unless I want to start spending mega$ on engines, which I don't.

LC+ fits me to a "T". The major selling point for me was the remote operation at an entry level cost much less than Legacy or DCS. The equipment is good looking, smooth running and reliable (so far) and its' "semi-scale" size means it fits in perfectly size-wise with all my other stuff.

I only hope the price point stays within the range it's in now.

I'm primarily a conventional operator though I have TMCC on one of my 3 main lines, but I only have one TMCC locomotive. I have no desire to add Legacy nor DCS. However LionChief + offers most of the features of TMCC that I would want at a price point that I can afford. I believe that is the key to its success.  

I anticipate purchase of a Lion Chief+ NW2 to use in my freight yard. I'll have sounds, operating front and rear couplers and more. No need to buy any additional control system.

So I get the features of command operation I want at a price I can afford. What's not to like? If I was a very serious modeler or talented and wealthy enough (I'm neither!) to do 3 rail scale, and if I was willing to learn the intricacies of Legacy or DCS, then I'd want to go with Legacy or Proto 3/DCS, but that isn't my thing and Lion Chief+ will work for me.

Another aspect of Lion Chief+ I find appealing is its simplicity. There is virtually no learning curve. Look at the complexity of many posts on the Legacy and DCS forums. No worry about loss of signal in tunnels, star wiring, etc. Just put the locomotive on the track, power up and go.

I believe Lionel has found a viable market niche with Lion Chief+ for folks like me who like the basic command features but who do not have the time and financial resources to commit to full command systems and locomotives. I also agree with John Galt Line that more features will likely be added to the line in the future.

A couple of things.

First, LC+ is appealing to -- if you go by the anecdotal evidence posted here on the forum by members and dealers alike -- experienced O gaugers. I don't think it's an entry level line at all.

For me, I fit several profiles already mentioned. I'm a PW guy and run all conventional. I have zero, zippy interest in TMCC/Legacy, etc. And I will never buy a $600, $700, $800+ train. Not happening.  LC+ initially caught my eye because of the ability to run both from the remote and conventionally. And the speed control, smoke, operating couplers -- all at a nice price -- really sold it.

I think Lionel has a winner in LC+. They are selling and from what I hear pre-sales are strong on the next batch. And last but no least, in the recent Podcast with the Lionel folks, there's an announcement coming soon about some new developments in the LC+ line.

Stay tuned.

How many frequencies/channels and on what band? I'm familiar with RC airplanes, so just wondered. Today's radios work pretty much bullet proof.

LC+ uses a generic 2.4GHz transceiver from china.  I don't have the exact specs worked out yet, but the technology is the same as any other 2.4GHz device. I think there are something like 80 "channels" used, but all devices hop across those channels to find one with the least interference.  The control is done through software, assigning each device an address to talk to.  Pretty much the same thing as used in some RC planes, though the tech more closely resembles that used in small drone quad-copters and the like, as they use very low cost transceivers... (Though these $1.50 boards have been shown to be capable of working up to 1 mile without obstruction) they are rated for about 30 feet for the ones used in LC+ and seem to work well up to 50-60 feet.  As far as general capability, I'm unsure how much data is sent on LC system, but the industry standard for these sorts of devices is to send "packets" of 32 Bytes of data.  To compare, TMCC uses 2 Bytes of data to operate the full system.  Legacy uses 3 Bytes of data.  This is just me theorizing now, but I would guess LC uses a simple format similar to that of TMCC/Legacy for the actual data.  

(For general info, a byte of data is equal to 8 bits, or 1's and zeros.  A Byte can represent one letter in text, or and number from 0 to 255. )

The 2 bytes in tmcc offers about 65,000 on/off bits of data

3 bytes in Legacy offer about 16 million bits of data

The 32 Bytes in standard 2.4GHz. offer 3/4 of a google bits.  (A 1 followed by 77 zeros.)

Anyway, rambling over for now.  I'm sure I'll have more later.  

Edit:

P.S.  Upon thinking some more, I think the main market for these is definitely NOT people already using Legacy, but rather those that run conventional.  A lot of guys are still going to stick with conventional control, but a fair number will probably give the LC+ a shot since they can run these conventionally if they prefer.  As others have mentioned the system is simple, and offers the most useful functions of a remote system with a simple, straight forward controller.  This helps sales in two ways, as folks that think Legacy is too complex may find this system simple enough, and it introduces people to remote systems that may never have thought they wanted more than conventional offers, possibly leaving them interested in seeing what Legacy has to offer once they find they like what LC+ offers.  I think it is smart business to discontinue conventional only production and only offer LC+ soon.  It puts a remote in the hand of conventional runners and some of them might just like it.  

"Every day sees humanity more victorious in the struggle with space and time."  -  Guglielmo Marconi

Absolutely, you have it spot on.

That, and the fact that everyone I know with Legacy and DCS has had minor and occasionally major operating problems, including often while I am there (one loco can't be addressed, or the owner simply can't remember all the codes and such to operate this or that feature or talk to that loco). 

And as they say, RC is bulletproof.  

Interesting set of viewpoints. My opinion is that LionChief was as inevitable as the watch from Apple. Lee Willis touched on a key point in his posting. TMCC is based on a complex propogation system using two step signal conveyence from the remote to the locomotive receiver. LionChief is a single step approach from the remote to the loco receiver which has fewer system issues.

When I first started with TMCC, I concluded that a simpler single step system would make sense, so I designed and built one. The details were outlined in a 2011 TTOS club magazine. Lionel must have read the article and announced LionChief approximately eighteen months later.

On balance, both systems have positive features, but I suspect that future wireless RC engineering efforts will be centered on LionChief.

Yes... interesting set of viewpoints for sure.  And this has all been very helpful.  Glad to see some folks feel LC+ meets their needs.

Somewhat ironic though that when TMCC was first being marketed years ago, it was billed as "couldn't be any simpler".  Straight from Lionel, here ya go...

The TMCC Command Base receives digital signals from your CAB-1 Remote Controller and relays the commands across your layout. Only one is required for each layout — no matter how big or how many power blocks you have.

And just one wire connects the TMCC Command Base to the common ground terminals of the ZW (or outside rails of the track).  Now TMCC/Legacy is suddenly complicated?    Funny how perspectives of simplicity vs. complexity change over time. 

David

John,

I have my PRR Mikado LC+ if you want to borrow it for awhile? Just let me know!

Have two RS-3 's on order for my MU, a PRR LC+ Rectifier and a Jersey Central LC+ Camelback on order....

Yes, with all of these in the works and the different LC sets we have, a universal remote would be great!

I'm excited about LC+, and like the quality details for the price.

Our club's use of LC+ has even made some of our Old School operators believers in remote control, and they are as excited as the children we have let be the engineers with LC+.

At a train show last weekend, we ran three LC+s and a a TMCC on our twin loop portable layout. Loved not having to remember the TMCC addresses. Here's a photo of four operators hard at work.

Jerry

Jerry, the guy on the right seems to be a sidewalk superintendent!

Dennis, I'm in no hurry to jump into LC+, I can wait until a set comes along that hits the right spot, then I'm all over it.

This TMCC vs LionChief discussion reminds of those frenzied postings a few months ago on battery power vs track power. Looks like train people are highly opinionated and willing to express their views.

Something I've come to realize since I started posting here,  What is flat out, no brains, simple for some, is considered mind-numbingly complex to others.  Just look at the posts every few days on how to use LED's if you need proof.  Some people just have different skill sets and while I think TMCC is quite simple, I'm sure Lionel has found that many people are un-interested or scared of it.  This is evident any time someone brings up or even leaves a crack open to say "Two wires and a transformer."  I feel like eliminating the fully conventional engine is a step in the right direction, as LC+ allows these hard core, give me a ZW or give me death, users to get what they want, and with very little cost change, also give them a remote they just might give a try.  

Actually, I find this particular thread the most polite and informed discussion of what LC+ offers with a minimal amount of deviation from the topic of any I've read on the topic.  Fairly annoyed that some old posts from several years back asking about technical specs and such were closed due to being, and I quote, " Another thread on bashing LionChief"

As for personal feelings on the matter, I think the radio system used in LC is far and away better than any other system on the market that I am familiar with. (I only read/look at 3 rail O. ) As currently implemented, Tmcc/DCS/Legacy offer much more functionality, and if you have one of these systems LC+ is mostly a step backward.  

I've run conventional only, up until about 4 months ago, since picking up a LionChief Polar Express and really enjoying it, I bought a TMCC system off the bay and several engines equipped for it, as well as upgrading one I had that was command ready.  Typical running sessions of late, on the temporary basement floor three loops involve running the polar express LC on one loop, Tmcc loco on one, and conventional on the third.  Ask me to give one up and I'll be open to the idea when you part with one of your children.  All have merits and flaws, but I enjoy each for exactly what it is, and don't expect it to be anything else.  

"To love is to value. Only a rationally selfish man, a man of self-esteem, is capable of love—because he is the only man capable of holding firm, consistent, uncompromising, unbetrayed values. The man who does not value himself, cannot value anything or anyone."  --  A.R.

The battles here a few years ago use to be why Mechanical E-Units are better than Electronic ones, then it was a shift to conventional versus command.  It seemed like once a month a vigorous battle in posting would occur.  As time went on with DCS and TMCC/Legacy these battle disappeared.

Not that you still don't have staunch supporters of both, but the arguments stopped.  Frankly, the SILENT majority is Command Control now a days.  The vocal minority is probably Conventional or LC+.

There are several companies that have been doing radio control circuits (over the air wire) for O and G gauge for years.  They have a simple channel selectable remote.  Outdoor G gauge is very common.  None of this is really new, but you would think it is a new invention never heard of before.

LC+ has it place, but how many trains do you think Lionel will sell to 60-90 yo versus the potential for 25-45yo?

How many remote holders can you put on your layout over the years?

My cab-1 has 15 buttons and a numerical key pad.  I only need to use one button and the key pad to select the engine, and I use the same # of keys to control the engine that an LC+ has.  That is too complicated? 

What about switch control remotely if you want to do it, yes I can do that with 3 buttons too.

And lets not forget that MTH engine can do many of their functions conventionally with just a sequence push of the horn/bell button.

I just have a feeling that down the road, with out a universal remote folks are going to have a hard time keeping up with the remotes.

I think LC was an accountant decision as much as marketing.  Installed slightly more expensive electronics into the engine, but removed the costly transformer and replaced it with a walwart.  I think this decision improved profit margin for the RTR sets, with LC+, it ends the TMCC line and turns to the ERR element to return additional profit as LC+ are converted to TMCC in about 2-3 years when the novelty expires.   Just my opinion.  G