Legacy/RS5.0/RS6.0 Boards use with ERR Commanders? 7/22 UPDATE

Thomas,

I recently purchased RS 5.0 boards from Lionel to retrofit a couple of TMCC steamers that I upgraded to ERR cruise M.  These engines had earlier RS 2.0 boards. The 5.0 boards I put in the steamers made a huge difference.

I don't believe you can purchase the Legacy boards at this time, however the 4.0 & 5.0 boards can be purchased through regular customer service.  Just have a part # available.  

BT

I'll consider it, Bruce. The irony is that the more criticized generic CrewTalk on the more recent Legacy engines works for me, as I don't think there are 5.0 boards with matching road number for the engines I have.

The newer LEGACY sound boards are almost the same as the newer ERR sound boards at least physically. The only difference I noticed is the trim pot (volume control) is mounted to the board. where the LEGACY version is not. There is a 3 pin Female Plug end instead for external mount of the Volume control Pot. But they are in the same location on the boards. Lionel makes the boards for ERR. ERR is part of Lionel. I guarantee the Pin outs are pretty much the same. Those boards are reprogrammable. If Lionel ever decides to do what MTH does, we can program those boards as a consumer.  

Mikado 4501 posted:

I'll consider it, Bruce. The irony is that the more criticized generic CrewTalk on the more recent Legacy engines works for me, as I don't think there are 5.0 boards with matching road number for the engines I have.

That would likely be true.  I don't use the crew talk so it is a mute point with me.  At any rate good luck with your search!

BT

Bruk posted:

Those boards are reprogrammable. If Lionel ever decides to do what MTH does, we can program those boards as a consumer.  

Lionel release the Legacy sound files?  Don't hold your breath.

BruceT47 posted:

Thomas,

I recently purchased RS 5.0 boards from Lionel to retrofit a couple of TMCC steamers that I upgraded to ERR cruise M.  These engines had earlier RS 2.0 boards. The 5.0 boards I put in the steamers made a huge difference.

I don't believe you can purchase the Legacy boards at this time, however the 4.0 & 5.0 boards can be purchased through regular customer service.  Just have a part # available.  

BT

 

 

Bruce, AFAIK, you cannot buy Railsound 5 boards from lionel without trading one in. Did you have to trade in? If not, what are the part # for the boards you ordered? If I can buy Railsound 5 boards without trading in, I can update/make an engine I have always wanted.

Lionel is apparently now selling RS5 boards. Not really worth it now as the newest ERR Railsounds boards are less money when you add in the required audio power and motherboard required for the RS5 boards. Sound is at least as good if not better than RS5 and are all generic. I looked and could not find generic RS5 boards. As for Legacy RS, the only way you will get one is buy an Legacy engine and remove its board or maybe if you are a personal friend of someone at Lionel.

Pete

I got one visionline board for a engine that didnt have one.. It was like pulling teeth never again ..

Guess we'll have to wait until Lionel upgrades the Legacy RailSounds to a new version, or decides to give ERR some more sound boards.

I talked with Ken of ERR, and he said that the ones for sale are the only ones Lionel will let them use. Again, it wouldn't be such an issue if the sounds weren't of such limited variety, mostly steam engine wise. It can be pretty distracting to hear Pennsylvania K4 sounds coming from a NYC Hudson, or Big Boy ones from an Allegheny.

Nicks Trains posted:

BruceT47 posted:

Thomas,

I recently purchased RS 5.0 boards from Lionel to retrofit a couple of TMCC steamers that I upgraded to ERR cruise M.  These engines had earlier RS 2.0 boards. The 5.0 boards I put in the steamers made a huge difference.

I don't believe you can purchase the Legacy boards at this time, however the 4.0 & 5.0 boards can be purchased through regular customer service.  Just have a part # available.  

BT

 

 

Bruce, AFAIK, you cannot buy Railsound 5 boards from lionel without trading one in. Did you have to trade in? If not, what are the part # for the boards you ordered? If I can buy Railsound 5 boards without trading in, I can update/make an engine I have always wanted.

 

No I did not have to trade anything in.  It has been mentioned on this forum that Lionel has relaxed their exchange requirements for RS 5 boards.  For the record I purchased an HHP 8 electric  5.5 board  691RS5506b.  I misspoke on the steamer boards as they were RS 4E 691RS4E01B / Southern 4-6-2 #1396.

BT

Bruce,

I found an ideal RS5.0 board for this engine, in this case from the American Flyer Mikado with the same road number.

Though, since the RS5.0 boards are much different than the Legacy/ERR ones, is there a wiring diagram you can offer for setup? Do the ERR speaker and wires to the ERR Cruise board get hooked up differently than normal?

The easiest way to use these may be to use this RailSounds Powered Motherboard.  It has most of the same connections as the older ERR RailSounds Commander and is pretty easy to use.  Also, the pin connections are silk screened on the back side.

I'll assume that the RailSounds card slips through the 24 prongs. But that board looks like it has all the outlets for the speaker and commander. I can guess the speaker goes in the upper left outlet on the second row, and the hot and ground connection to the bottom left outlet on the second row, but where does the purple and black wires and the chuff sensor wires lead to?

Actually, the speaker goes as depicted below.  There are three extra pins that are for an external volume control as this board doesn't have it on-board.  There are the red block on the right.  You can either use those pins with an external control or buy the proper volume control pot and solder it to the board locations for it.  You can also short two of the pins for max volume and dispense with the volume control.  For steam, a reed switch goes between the Trigger switch and DC Common on the lower right connector.  The 5VDC is for a hall effect sensor.

It looks like for the speaker, hot and ground leads (red and black) and the purple and black pair that go to the 9 pin plug require new plugs in order to fit into the Motherboard.

This powered MB connects to the Cruise Commander using the three position plug on the top right, track power, ground, and serial data. You need a 3-pin to 4-pin cable.  Conveniently, the Cruise Commander or AC Commander comes with a suitable cable, you just need to remove the pins from one end of the 4-pin to 4-pin cable and use a 3-pin connector shell.

If you connect a chuff switch to the trigger and DC common, do NOT connect either wire of that to frame ground, you'll release the magic smoke.  I normally feed the chuff into the Cruise Commander and let it come over on the serial data line, easier wiring job.

Doesn't that harness actually come with the Sound board from ERR?  Except the CC Lite.  The CC Lite has the unique connector, so that board comes with a sound harness.   G

Remember, he's not getting this board from ERR as they no longer sell it, so he doesn't get the harness.  The Lionel board is a bare board, no cables.  The question is how to hook it up.  Since it's basically the old RS Commander power board, I'm using that as the pattern for documenting the connections.  The Cruise Commander does come with a 4-pin to 4-pin cable, you just need to replace the connector shell with a 3-pin shell for this application.  Obviously, you do still have to come up with the 5-pin connector for the speaker and volume control connections.  If you want a battery and/or SS/RS switch, you need the 4-pin cable too.

I think you are mistaken.  The Recent CC I received from ERR do not come with the 4 pin as it is not necessary for the CC to work as the motor controller/feature controller.  You get the 4 pin harness with the Sound set.  It plugs into the CC.  The exception is CDR Lite .  Because the CDR Lite has a non standard connector, it comes with the harness to plug into the sound board.  The one that comes with the Sound board would not work with the CDR Lite.   Also the CC-M Modular does come with a harness, needed for PWM. 

I do have spare harness if needed.  G

You're right, the cable I described comes with the Cruise Commander M kit.  I'm working on a couple of these and got the cables mixed up.  The odd thing is, you have no use for this cable with the normal installation of the CC-M, so I'm not sure why it's in the package!   You use the 4-pin cable from the old DCDR for the CC-M, so I have a lot of these cables laying around.

He has no cables with the Lionel part, so he'll have to fabricate those for this option.  If he uses a standard RS4 motherboard, he'll be faced with the came cable dilemma.  That was actually where I was going, I got sidetracked by the stuff sitting on my workbench.

I purchased the Motherboard as shown above for RailSounds 5, and a corresponding RS5 board (for the Pennyslvania S Gauge Mikado, which sounds much appropriate). However, when I contacted Ken at ERR of cables to connect to it, he said this about it and the wiring diagram:

I'm afraid you are mixing apples and oranges here.  The first picture with the 691- number is a Lionel power board.  It takes different cables than our Electric RR board.  We do not have those special cables.  Lionel or the OEM companies that used that board supplied their own cables.

The second drawing is what we sold, RS4, that is without the red parts.  It fed an RS4 audio board.  We do not sell either the power or audio board any more.  There might be a few cables left around here.

If you can be very specific on exactly what cable you need from what to what maybe I can find enough parts to make one.

I'd imagine you just needed to follow John's advice of having a 3 pin to 4 pin cable and replace the serial data wire to the motherboard, but this advice from Ken is a little disconcerting.

I use these motherboards, and they work fine!  Just take this cable that came with the Cruise Commander and retask it for the 4-pin to 3-pin duty.  You can just find a 3-pin connector shell and rearrange the wires.

That cable and the speaker is all you need.  You don't need the battery or the RS/SS switch.  If you don't have any old TMCC connectors laying around, they're available from Digikey for peanuts.  They have all the JST EH housings from 2 pins to 10 pins in stock: http://www.digikey.com/product...&pkeyword=jst+eh

The matching pins are on each product page.

That certainly makes it easier, John. I'll purchase the 3 pin plug housing in addition to the yellow 2mm LED's.

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the normal Cruise Commanders I purchased did not come with that wire. Guess they don't do it anymore.

Get a few of the connector bodies, you'll need the 3-pin, the 5-pin at least.  I invested in the crimp tool some time back, now I can make cables for all the common Lionel and MTH connectors from 1.0 mm to the 2.54mm ones.  It comes in very handy when doing these kinds of things.

I looked and you're apparently correct, the last three Cruise Commanders I just got don't have that cable.  Good thing I can make them.

Mikado 4501 posted:

That certainly makes it easier, John. I'll purchase the 3 pin plug housing in addition to the yellow 2mm LED's.

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the normal Cruise Commanders I purchased did not come with that wire. Guess they don't do it anymore.

Pardon me if you know this already but the connector housings don't come with pins. You order them separately. You will want to get many more than the total positions of the housings as it may take a few tries to learn how to crimp them without distorting the pins or not crimping hard enough and having the wire come loose.

Pete

If you mean these, Pete, then yes.

http://www.digikey.com/product...455-1042-2-ND/527267

If ERR doesn't respond back, I'll try and making one of those cables myself as well.

Those should work. Are you going to order the $500 crimp tool or the $1k one? 

Pete

Probably neither. I found the cheaper alternative ones of the pins as well.

I use the Engineer PA-09 Crimp Tool for these connectors, works perfectly.

I actually have a tool just like that, albeit in yellow, so that should do.

I ordered 25 of the pins (just in case), 3, 4 and 5 pin plugs, and the 2 LED's. Now to wait.

You won't have to wait long for Digikey, they ship like lightning!

You can also buy pre-crimped wires in various colors from Lionel parts.  Makes it much easier that buying multicolor wire and all the extras for a one or 2 time harness making event.  G

If he has the crimp tool, the rest of it is no big deal.  The electrons don't care what color the wire is.

FWIW, for small gauge colored wire I use rainbow ribbon and peel the individual conductors.  Very cost effective colored #24 wire.

Sure, but for a one or two event thing he probably has better stuff to do with his time...,girls,cars,school, etc  All depends on how deep you want to go with scratch building.  G

5/4 Update (Hey, Star Wars day, eh?):

I'm finally removing the outdated RailSounds 1.0 from my 18005 Hudson from 1990 and upgrading it to a can motor via Frank Timko. It will get things like fan smoke, Super Chuffer, etc. as well, but the HARDEST part is finding a suitable RailSounds card for it to do it full justice. ERR doesn't offer steam sounds that sound like a New York Central Hudson, and all of Lionel's old Hudson RS4.0 sound boards are impossible to find.

What I DID find is Lionel is now offering their modular Legacy sound boards (non-Lite boards I mean, which are essentially the same as the ERR sound boards), RailSounds 6.0 as they call it, for sale as parts. This includes both the Vision 700E and the 4-4-2 Atlantic boards. The latter would suit this engine excellently, and I will be purchasing the 5344 board for my 18056 Hudson (which is numbered 5344).

But before I seal the deal on these boards, I want to know if they're as compatible with the 691PMB2A02 RailSounds powered motherboard as the earlier 4.0 and 5.0 boards were?

And if I was to put a 6.0 board in a 5.0 RS modular system, would that be an issue? - By that I mean placing the 6.0 board in the 38097 PT tender Lionel offered for Century Club 2, which had RS 5.0.

The 6.0 boards look similar, but not quite the same as those older boards. These boards are far from cheap, but I want to do my favorite railroad and favorite locomotives as much justice as I can.

They used the same generic RS power supply board, so they have the same pinouts.  I can't imagine why they wouldn't be usable with the powered motherboard.

I checked the listing for the Vision Line Genset that uses RS 6.0 boards, they also use the generic RailSounds power supply.  I'm sure the powered motherboard will be fine.

RS 6 is Legacy, no? ERR is 8 bit TMCC. I have not tried it but doubt it will work or if it does you will have limited sounds. If you want RS 6 I believe you would have buy all the boards for the Vision Hudson including R4LC and Motor driver (plus motor encoder). Best bet with ERR is just get their large steam Railsounds board.

Pete

Pete

I get what you're saying. Maybe I'm a nitpicky fanatic when it comes to the Hudsons, but I just don't want a Hudson sounding like an N&W J or a PRR K4. I'm not looking to turn a conventional engine into a 100% Legacy locomotive, just one that sounds reasonably like its prototype - remember how ticked everyone else was when Lionel gave the Legacy Blue Comet that high pitched sounding whistle in 2012? As long as it chuffs, rings and whistles, and sounds reasonably accurate, I'll be fine.

Believe me, I would go for any of the older, cheaper RS4.0 boards from older Hudson locos if they existed at Lionel's parts department, but that isn't so. And, no, I'm not a hater of the ERR sound kits - the large one suits the MTH Blue Comet locomotive I'm upgrading just fine.

Like John said, looking over the exploded diagrams, the sound systems look almost as modular as the older RS4 and 5 systems.

Actually, you can build a real Legacy locomotive with available parts now.

The RS6 boards as you have indicated.  You can also buy the Legacy R4LC, and the Legacy back-EMF driver, that's basically a Cruise Commander M that speaks Legacy.  It was used in some AF Legacy models.

You'll also need a motherboard for the R4LC to tie it all together.

That was my point. The only way to use an RS6 board is to go all Legacy. If you go with ERR then the best audio will either be Lionel RS 5 or ERR Railsounds. I am not aware of a generic RS 5 board. They are all engine specific. You could use ERR with the separate sale PT tender but it too is engine specific for the ESE cab number 5429. User selectable sounds sets are one area where DCS shines.

Pete

I don't know which Legacy motor drivers are available now - if what John's saying is true, it might be off the recent SD70ACE's in S gauge - but if this is true, it might just be easier to go full Legacy mode instead with all the proper pieces. Again, I don't want nor need to, but if it is the only way to operate the 6.0 sounds, I might as well be the test monkey.

In the end, I think I'd still spend less than half the amount of a $1600+ Vision 700E.

I won't argue with DCS there, though.

BTW, Lionel also is selling their RS5.5 boards, which look exactly the same as the 5.0 boards, and they were also made for Legacy.

You should be able to use the motor driver board from the Vision Hudson. The difficult part will be mounting the speed sensor on your motor. I think Lionel is only selling first generation Legacy. The Vision Hudson has a large motor. If this is for a Timko smaller Mabuchi then maybe a speed sensor from a Legacy Diesel might work. The NYC GP7 was one of the first if not the first Legacy Diesel.

I think there a thread on the forum about upgrading an engine to Legacy if you want to get an idea of all that is involved.

Pete

Thomas,

If you plan on using the RailSounds 6 audio board (along with the powered motherboard) as a stand-alone sound system, you're probably OK. But as mentioned above, you'll likely run into trouble if you plan on using the RS6 board with anything older than an R4LC.

One more thing to keep in mind... In the R2LC/TMCC systems through RailSounds 4, there was a board in the tender (the AD20) that handled receiving the serial line commands over the wireless tether and then relaying this to the audio and RS power boards in the tender. The AD20 also handled the back-up light (incandescent) and the rear coupler. Starting with RailSounds 5 (and including 5.5 and 6.0), the AD20 was eliminated and those functions were handled by the RS audio board. My guess is that the RS powered motherboard doesn't have the connections for the back-up light (LED on RS5 and above), rear coupler, and wireless tether, so you might need to tap into the appropriate pins on the audio board for those functions.

TRW

Option B is to buy the actual motherboard from a Legacy tender and use the standard RS power, it's the same one from RS3 through RS6.  That should have all the connections for the coupler, light, and IR receiver.

I'd use the Legacy back-EMF motor driver and dispense with the issues of mounting the tach sensor wheel and board, that could get tricky.

Back emf would be the way to go if you could get the boards.

This is actually the Legacy version and its now listed no longer available. 

Pete

Thanks for the insight, Todd. Fortunately, all of ERR's command modules come with R4LC receivers now.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to install IR tethers on an old locomotive like this, and I planned on not having one in the first place. Nor did it have a backup light (or hole for it for that matter).

The last time I did an upgrade like this (the 18018 Southern Mikado), I just needed the Cruise commander, power board and 5.0 sound chip, and the 3 color (red, blue and green) cable to connect the two to let the commander transfer the hot, ground and serial data to the sound motherboard. That was basically it, and all this was housed in the tender. The only electronics in the locomotive were the LED lighting and the Super Chuffer to control the new fan smoke unit.

Let's take into account everything that needs to go into this Hudson locomotive:

• Fan driven, synchronized smoke (it originally came with postwar style heater type)
• Command control
• Improved sounds
• DC motor to replace AC motor

The locomotive has no cab detail back head, so therefore has a lot of space to put next to the new smaller can motor. With those goals, the list of needed parts are:

• Cruise Commander with packed in R4LC OR the Legacy motor driver and Legacy R4LC
• Fan driven smoke unit
• RailSounds 6.0 board with either the RS power board OR the Legacy sound motherboard and universal power board
• Something else to control the smoke unit puffs and the chuff rate, maybe?... (i.e. Super Chuffer or another official Lionel part)

Let me know if I'm missing anything.

The R4LC that comes with the ERR stuff is still only a TMCC receiver, it's the firmware loaded that determines if it speaks Legacy.  The C08 version loaded into the ERR R4LC makes it appear just like the common R2LC-C08 version.

If you are using the Cruise Commander, I don't know of any "official" Lionel solution to generating the chuffs or controlling the smoke.  However, I can recommend a solution that works for many people, the Chuff-Generator and the Super-Chuffer.

You had to see that coming, right?

Yes, John, I did. Considering I bought one of each at York, I know they work very well with ERR upgrades and are very easy to install. Of course this is if I went with the Cruise commander.

If I went with the Legacy motor driver, I might have to add something else to control it instead. Of course using the Chuff Generator and Super Chuffer would be much easier and fit into the rather tight confines of the American Hudson's boiler, minus the open cab, if the two could cooperate with each other.

The plastic coal load on the 18005's tender would be easy to create a Command antenna. Do Legacy locomotives have an antenna despite the 2.4 GHz frequency?

Again, IF (and keyword IF) the basic sounds (chuff, bell, whistle and maybe CrewTalk) of the 6.0 board can be controlled with the ERR commander, that's all I need. And again, I will not be using a wireless tether.

Oh yeah, and in a future plan to mate the 18056 Hudson with the CC2 PT tender, a simple swap of sound boards from 5 to 6.0 would be another beast of a problem altogether as well?

Everyone viewing this page is hitting on my virtual estate sale website, because MIKADO 4501 linked to the pic of the 18005 Hudson appearing in his Google image search results.  Interesting to see the back end effects of linking to a Google image, which I  often do myself.  Happy to be of assistance.  Promise not to sell or otherwise capitalize on the information imparted with each hit.

The older Legacy using the modular board system still required a chuff switch to trigger the chuffs.  Given that fact, the Chuff-Generator and Super-Chuffer are still the way I'd pick to handle the smoke unit, even with the Legacy boards.  However, since the Legacy version of the back-EMF motor driver appears to be unavailable, building the all-Legacy solution doesn't appear to be all that attractive. 

I'm watching this with interest.  I have a MTH PS-1 Hudson I want to upgrade to TMCC, but also want more Hudson like sounds.

I don't know for sure how the RS6 board would react to the 8 bit code from TMCC on the serial data.  It may work, but I don't have one out in the wild to test.  This is a question for someone like Rudy or Jon Z. from Lionel I suspect.

sinclair posted:

I'm watching this with interest.  I have a MTH PS-1 Hudson I want to upgrade to TMCC, but also want more Hudson like sounds.

You'd think being one of the most commonly produced locomotives in 3-Rail, NYC Hudson specific upgrade sounds by Lionel would sell hundreds to those who want them upgraded.

Guess it's time to contact one of them to see...

I heard that the RS6 board will not give you what you want with TMCC signals. you may get some functionality but it wont be what is expected.

If I were more energetic, I'd open up something with the RS6 board and try it in my test fixture.  However, I have too many other fish to fry, so I'll suggest it for someone else.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If I were more energetic, I'd open up something with the RS6 board and try it in my test fixture.  However, I have too many other fish to fry, so I'll suggest it for someone else.

I'm in the same boat, someone might want to do the test but I'm afraid it won't be me.

Railsounds posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If I were more energetic, I'd open up something with the RS6 board and try it in my test fixture.  However, I have too many other fish to fry, so I'll suggest it for someone else.

I'm in the same boat, someone might want to do the test but I'm afraid it won't be me.

I would be glad to test this if I had a board, hint, hint. 

Pete

Railsounds posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If I were more energetic, I'd open up something with the RS6 board and try it in my test fixture.  However, I have too many other fish to fry, so I'll suggest it for someone else.

I'm in the same boat, someone might want to do the test but I'm afraid it won't be me.

If someone want's to donate a RS6 board to me, I'll test it out.  I just don't want to spend $100 to find out it won't work with the 8-bit TMCC serial data!

I see Pete had the same idea.

Okay, Ill take a look into this.... I have ERR and Legacy boards laying around....give me a few days 

Shucks, and here I was angling for a free RS6 board.   It'll be interesting to see what you come up with, I'm kinda' curious myself.

I went digging in my sound board box tonight, and found the only RS6 board I had. I first installed it in a good Legacy chassis with an R4LC (from the 6-18993 C&NW S-2 Switcher) to make certain everything worked properly.

The one hiccup is that I think this particular RS6 board, which is unlabeled, is the "front/loco" board for the UP Challenger two-board system that doesn't have all the sounds populated (like CrewTalk, TowerCom, rear ElectroCoupler) in the usual locations in the ROM. Having said that, this particular RS6 board appears to work identically with either an R2LC (C13) or R4LC (S03) installed.

I also tried a Legacy RS5.5 board, this one from the Santa Fe Atlantic #1484, with the full sound set contained on the single board. Same thing here -- it seems to work the same regardless of either an R2LC or R4LC installed.

One more thing to note: while these RS5.5 and RS6 sound systems worked fine with an R2LC in place of an R4LC, the Legacy motor driver in the S-2 chassis would only respond to an R4LC.

So I think it's encouraging that what Thomas proposed above could work. But since I don't have any early Legacy steam locos around to test the R2LC/RS6 with an IR tether (not needed for Thomas' installation) or the rear coupler/back-up light functionality, perhaps Mr. Bruk can specifically check this out as well as verify my findings above.

Hope this helps.

TRW

I've asked the same question before,  "can you run a legacy sound board with the ERR cruise commander?". My theory is yes, myself and my fellow repair guy Dustin at Eastside trains asked the same question a few years ago. We had a long discussion about it, but we never had a chance to try it out. Since then I have acquired some legacy 5.5 and 6.0 and RS Lite boards and I have an ERR package not yet installed. Ill try and find time to test this. Because I do seek an answer that I have asked many years ago (3).

Bruk, if you want to try out your Legacy sound boards all you need is an engine that has Lionel modular tmcc boards and swap out the audio board. It doesn't have to be ERR. ERR uses a standard Lionel R2LC or lately an 8 bit R4LC.

Pete

Yep, if I had the RS6 board, I was just going to slap it into my test setup for TMCC to see if it worked.

The problem you may run in to is incompatibility that varies board to board.  I am the guy that built a Legacy GG-1 from a William's Scale engine with the back EMF Legacy board, and hooked to a TMCC RS 5.0 GG-1 sound set.  I went through hell working on this with consults to experts until I found the right combination of R4LC Code along with a buffer to get it from corrupting the serial data and ceasing to function after a set time.

Second issue is the reliability and standard of those Powered Mother boards.  They all do not work right.  I have had several NOT work right out of the package. Or have issues degrading the serial data.

Third this will be an expensive proposition and time consuming endeavor, so you better under stand the architecture and how the system works, or you will be chasing your tail.

If you get the parts for free and you have nothing better to do with your time, go for it.  At this point, I just go ERR for those wanting TMCC upgrades.  The mix and match was consuming too much time, and your unsupported if a part you get from Lionel does not work later down the road when you use it.

With ERR you get full support with a defective product.  Just my 2 cents.  G

GGG posted:

Second issue is the reliability and standard of those Powered Mother boards.  They all do not work right.  I have had several NOT work right out of the package. Or have issues degrading the serial data.

After you told me this, I checked all of mine.  There was one that was dead from Lionel.  Since I'd had them for some time, I just bit the bullet and tossed it in my dead boards bin.  If I work up a lot of energy some day, I may try to see what failed on it.

Norton posted:

Bruk, if you want to try out your Legacy sound boards all you need is an engine that has Lionel modular tmcc boards and swap out the audio board. It doesn't have to be ERR. ERR uses a standard Lionel R2LC or lately an 8 bit R4LC.

Pete

I already know for a fact that it works if that's what you guys wanted to know, I have tested that many times before...

The rail sounds 6 board was just a newer version of the 5.5 and previous versions to get away from the chip design and be able to program directly. If you guys have Legacy 990 you can actually run your LEGACY locomotives in the TMCC mode and with the speed steps. You have to change the settings. You can even run your engines in TMCC mode and with Legacy RailSounds on. Anyways I thought what mikado 4501 wanted to know was if he can use the ERR commander with a Legacy RS6 board. He said he wanted just the Legacy Sounds...and my guess is he is trying to get it from a Vision Line Hudson. which is equipped with a RS6 package. Not the "6.5" which is the RSLite board.

Bruk posted:

Norton posted:

Bruk, if you want to try out your Legacy sound boards all you need is an engine that has Lionel modular tmcc boards and swap out the audio board. It doesn't have to be ERR. ERR uses a standard Lionel R2LC or lately an 8 bit R4LC.

Pete

I already know for a fact that it works if that's what you guys wanted to know, I have tested that many times before...

The rail sounds 6 board was just a newer version of the 5.5 and previous versions to get away from the chip design and be able to program directly. If you guys have Legacy 990 you can actually run your LEGACY locomotives in the TMCC mode and with the speed steps. You have to change the settings. You can even run your engines in TMCC mode and with Legacy RailSounds on. Anyways I thought what mikado 4501 wanted to know was if he can use the ERR commander with a Legacy RS6 board. He said he wanted just the Legacy Sounds...and my guess is he is trying to get it from a Vision Line Hudson. which is equipped with a RS6 package. Not the "6.5" which is the RSLite board.

But can the tmcc R4LC send the 9 bit code needed for legacy sounds like quilllable whistle?

Santa Fe 3751 posted:

Bruk posted:

Norton posted:

Bruk, if you want to try out your Legacy sound boards all you need is an engine that has Lionel modular tmcc boards and swap out the audio board. It doesn't have to be ERR. ERR uses a standard Lionel R2LC or lately an 8 bit R4LC.

Pete

I already know for a fact that it works if that's what you guys wanted to know, I have tested that many times before...

The rail sounds 6 board was just a newer version of the 5.5 and previous versions to get away from the chip design and be able to program directly. If you guys have Legacy 990 you can actually run your LEGACY locomotives in the TMCC mode and with the speed steps. You have to change the settings. You can even run your engines in TMCC mode and with Legacy RailSounds on. Anyways I thought what mikado 4501 wanted to know was if he can use the ERR commander with a Legacy RS6 board. He said he wanted just the Legacy Sounds...and my guess is he is trying to get it from a Vision Line Hudson. which is equipped with a RS6 package. Not the "6.5" which is the RSLite board.

But can the tmcc R4LC send the 9 bit code needed for legacy sounds like quilllable whistle?

In theory yes..... Since Legacy is mainly 9 bit serial data and the R4LC is a 9 bit radio board it should work.

I have used the ERR R4LC board that comes in the kit as a temporary board replacement for my early LEGACY FEF-3 Northern. while waiting for a new one. From experiences in the past I believe the Rail sounds board knows the difference between 8 and 9 bit data and it will respond accordingly.

But I still need to test this on my bench. I haven't had anytime to do so this week.

The R4LC-08 firmware doesn't know anything about the quillable whistle, so I'd be amazed if it can make that happen.  The ERR R4LC is a drop-in replacement for the R2LC-08 and doesn't have any expanded capabilities.

Just because it is the R4LC hardware does not mean is works with Legacy if it has TMCC C08 Software installed.  The Software won't use 9 bits.  When testing this you also need to run for a significant period beyond a 5 min test.  Getting it to work for 5 minutes doesn't mean it will work for 15 minutes. Trust me:-)

Guys that want to try this should do it.  See if it works under operating conditions.  If so report what specific hardware with software codes you used.  G

What makes you think that George?   Something about the burning wagons around your pioneer cabin?

It was an interesting learning experience, that has carried over to some issues I see with other Legacy products.  Still can not be explained why though.    Of course that is a week of my life I will never get back either  G

GGG posted:

Of course that is a week of my life I will never get back either  G

Been there, done that, burned the T-shirt.   However, you typically learn some valuable lessons in the process.

Thomas, any new progress on this? 

Matt,

Sorry about the hiatus.

I sent my 18005 Hudson loco to Frank Timko a couple of weeks ago, and he said I should be getting it back soon with the DC can motor and new fan driven smoke unit. While it was away, I plopped in Electric RR Cruise in its tender, plus a new baffled speaker, but otherwise no progress on the sounds.

Bruk's been busy, too, and I'm still trying to find a Gold Hudson audio board somewhere, so I may just try and test out the 6.0 board on a whim. Pete's doing a similar project on the Hi-Rail forum.

I had some time this morning  and this is what I found in my tests.... using a ERR Cruise Commander and RailSounds 5.5 board from a ATSF E6 Atlantic.

1. The ERR R4LC board that is included with the kit, does not put out a 9 bit serial data. Only 8 like John and GGG were saying.
2. The Legacy R.S. Board in this case the 5.5 version did see the 8 bit and will operate in TMCC mode with no quilling whistle feature.
3.  I put a Lionel R4LC board a true 9 bit board from the E6 Atlantic on the ERR cruise commander. I did get lighting and coupler control but no motor control in LEGACY Control Mode. But I did get Legacy RailSound control (Quilling Whistle)
4. Now, If you go into the #900 LEGACY Cab-2 Controller and set the engine to TMCC control and then set the Sounds to LEGACY. You will be able to control the motor function with the Lionel 9 bit R4LC and also be able to control the LEGACY Sound features such as the Quilling Whistle/Horn.
5. Have not tested this with the CAB1-L. I don't have one. I don't know if it is possible due to the basicness of the controller system.

Judging by both Bruk and Todd's tests, the 5.5 boards should work with basic TMCC sound capability with the Cruise Commander. I'm would assume that the 6.0 board would work the same way.

Thanks for the experiments. It sounds like a Legacy sound board can function with a TMCC R2(4)LC and have all the standard functions, just not Legacy specific stuff like the quilling whistle.

Bruk posted:

Now, If you go into the #900 LEGACY Cab-2 Controller and set the engine to TMCC control and then set the Sounds to LEGACY. You will be able to control the motor function with the Lionel 9 bit R4LC and also be able to control the LEGACY Sound features such as the Quilling Whistle/Horn.

Did you actually try this?  The reason I ask is, I don't think the R4LC can get the quilling whistle when it's receiving 8 bit TMCC data.  The Legacy command base being set for TMCC will only transmit 8-bit data for that locomotive, it's not going to switch to 9-bit data for the sound.  I don't see how that would work, but I don't have a Legacy sound board handy to test it.

I would expect a CAB2 mixed control setting--TMCC for motor control and Legacy for Railsounds to work as Bruk described.

Interesting Rudy, I'll have to try it.   I would have thought the Legacy RS board would have an issue with 8-bit data.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Interesting Rudy, I'll have to try it.   I would have thought the Legacy RS board would have an issue with 8-bit data.

You can try this with one of your own legacy equipped engines. You can put it in TMCC mode and set the sounds to legacy, and put it in legacy mode, and set the sounds to tmcc.  

Bruk posted:

I had some time this morning  and this is what I found in my tests.... using a ERR Cruise Commander and RailSounds 5.5 board from a ATSF E6 Atlantic.

1. The ERR R4LC board that is included with the kit, does not put out a 9 bit serial data. Only 8 like John and GGG were saying.
2. The Legacy R.S. Board in this case the 5.5 version did see the 8 bit and will operate in TMCC mode with no quilling whistle feature.
3.  I put a Lionel R4LC board a true 9 bit board from the E6 Atlantic on the ERR cruise commander. I did get lighting and coupler control but no motor control in LEGACY Control Mode. But I did get Legacy RailSound control (Quilling Whistle)
4. Now, If you go into the #900 LEGACY Cab-2 Controller and set the engine to TMCC control and then set the Sounds to LEGACY. You will be able to control the motor function with the Lionel 9 bit R4LC and also be able to control the LEGACY Sound features such as the Quilling Whistle/Horn.
5. Have not tested this with the CAB1-L. I don't have one. I don't know if it is possible due to the basicness of the controller system.

Thanks for doing this. Still to be proven is if this will work equally well with an older R2LC. GGG indicated he had problems when he tried to do this. Still it opens new doors for anyone doing new TMCC installs with ERR stuff. We now have more options for Railsounds.

Pete

Enough speculation, I just did the tests.

Configuration is an R2LC-C08, generic RS power supply,  6-11207 Legacy Lionmaster RS6 board, and a TMCC motherboard.  Motor drive is a standard Lionel DCDR running a can motor on my test bed.

Running in TMCC mode, a Legacy 6.0 board works fine as a TMCC board.  Obviously, no quilling whistle, but everything else seems to work.  I get all the sounds as I'd expect, and all the crew talk if you're into that sort of thing.

Running in TMCC mode and setting the sounds to Legacy, breaks some major things.  Specifically, the whistle and bell no longer function at all.  Crew talk, tower, chuff, work fine, just not whistle or bell.  That doesn't seem to be a useful option.  Obviously, they're expecting the 9-bit data that we spoke of.  Most likely, the single hit bell and the quilling options necessitated the use of the 9-bit serial data.  For the energetic, you can probably figure that out from the Legacy protocol specification, I'm not that energetic. 

To wrap up the testing, I used a Legacy S02 R4LC in my test setup and repeated the tests.  First off, the Legacy R4LC could not get motion at all, reprogramming, etc. no change.  So, using the Legacy R4LC is a looser.  However, obviously, the Legacy R4LC had no issue making the quilling whistle happen.

Bottom line?  No quilling whistle for TMCC locomotives.  However, as Pete says, it does open up the option to use early Legacy boards if they're available to expand your sound horizons.

I'm glad I brought this topic up, but even more happy to see it's answers brought by the help of others who were just as interested.

The Vision Hudson board would do wonders for old Hudsons looking for new sounds, or the 4-4-2 Atlantic board. Yes, they're not cheap, but I honestly think it'll be worth it.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Thanks for the experiments. It sounds like a Legacy sound board can function with a TMCC R2(4)LC and have all the standard functions, just not Legacy specific stuff like the quilling whistle.

Bruk posted:

Now, If you go into the #900 LEGACY Cab-2 Controller and set the engine to TMCC control and then set the Sounds to LEGACY. You will be able to control the motor function with the Lionel 9 bit R4LC and also be able to control the LEGACY Sound features such as the Quilling Whistle/Horn.

Did you actually try this?  The reason I ask is, I don't think the R4LC can get the quilling whistle when it's receiving 8 bit TMCC data.  The Legacy command base being set for TMCC will only transmit 8-bit data for that locomotive, it's not going to switch to 9-bit data for the sound.  I don't see how that would work, but I don't have a Legacy sound board handy to test it.

I'm trying this now and when I enter the settings you mention. I get motor control but I can't use the horn or bell, all the other sounds do work however. 

The Cruise Commander motor control may act differently than the stock Lionel DCDR, I didn't try a CC.  However, since you don't get the Legacy only exclusive features for the sound in TMCC mode, it's somewhat of a moot point.

Unless there's a hole in my experiment, the hot ticket is just to use the Legacy sound boards in TMCC mode and have the expanded set of sounds available for these upgrades.

Bruk, Very interesting, I knew the TMCC versus Legacy Motor driver where not normally compatible with the opposite R2LC/R4LC.  But the fact the CAB-2 system can let a R4LC talk in 8 bit to motor driver while 9 bit to RS is interesting.

Having said that, John stated he could not get it to work?  So we now have on that doesn't work.

So you need to identify what code R4LC was used, and what motor driver type.

Again, it would not surprise me if certain combinations of R4LC/RS 5.5 +++/and DCDS have problems running.  But maybe some combinations will work.

My engine did for 5 minutes, then it degraded over the next 3 minutes to all functional control was lost.  Turn it off for 15 minutes and it would repeat, like clockwork.  G

Okay, so I decided to be bite the hook and try out a RS6.0 board in one of the powered motherboards I had to see if it worked.

Unfortunately, it did not. At least this one didn't. Instead, it created a lot of heat and messed up the serial data for that motherboard for good. I had tested this MB with a RS5 board prior, and everything worked fine.

I'm definitely sending the 6.0 board back to Lionel to see what the issue is, because I find it difficult to believe a board would do that if it was correctly put together. Either that, or it's just $100+ down the tube...

That's interesting, because I took the RS 6.0 board out of my T1 Duplex and dropped it into my test TMCC MB, it worked like a champ using TMCC.  I don't know of any difference between the power requirements of the RS5 and RS6 boards, perhaps Mike Reagan (Mikado) does, he's certainly had his hands on all this stuff.

I figured so, too John. I guess the verdict is the 6.0 board itself was tainted, because I know a bad MB can affect a sound board, but I've not seen the reverse action happen. Hoping to get my motherboard fixed, too.

I'd like to hear the "definitive" answer on any differences, I expected the powered MB to work with any RS board from RS3 thru RS6.  I've used an RS 5.5 one in the powered motherboard, but never the 6.0 one that has all the SMT stuff and no sockets.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'd like to hear the "definitive" answer on any differences, I expected the powered MB to work with any RS board from RS3 thru RS6.  I've used an RS 5.5 one in the powered motherboard, but never the 6.0 one that has all the SMT stuff and no sockets.

The RS6.0 PCB is not compatible with the Powered motherboard, I should know I designed the PCB.  The design goal implemented for the powered motherboard was for RS5 (and 5.5); not RS4 and RS6 - and not a good idea to plug anything but 5.x in! The powered motherboard was designed for the aftermarket sales at ElectricRR; but came in handy for some limited deployments.  Using it for any other application, your mileage may vary.  I did not check out the application of the Powered Motherboard for other configurations, so feel free to experiment...

RS6 had a unique motherboard and was short lived as it had too much complexity with compatibility within the Legacy line, and time to program the flash was painful in production.  The RS6 was intended for 3 Vision locomotives only, the CC2,  the 2-10-10-2, and the Genset.  We needed more Sound Storage than RS5.5 could support for the advanced features in those Vision products.  As soon as we could, we migrated to RSL (BTW RSL means RailSounds Legacy, not RailSounds Lite!); so we could have a more controlled environment (power supply and offset detection on-board).

And the definitive answer we seek has been provided!   Thanks Jon, I'm glad I didn't plug my 6.0 board into the powered motherboard, I would have been unhappy.

FWIW, it seems to work fine with the RS4 boards, interesting that it wasn't really intended to.

Well, this is incredibly  disappointing. But at least it's something not to be repeated.

Still, going to wait to see what Lionel HQ says now...

Actually I've always been disappointed in how little information is provided to the users on many aspects of the electronics. The reasons, whatever, for that do not ever relieve the disappointment.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

And the definitive answer we seek has been provided!   Thanks Jon, I'm glad I didn't plug my 6.0 board into the powered motherboard, I would have been unhappy.

FWIW, it seems to work fine with the RS4 boards, interesting that it wasn't really intended to.

John,

It may electrically work, however as I mentioned it was not designed for RS4.  One item to note is the Diesel RPM function is driven by a VCO in the PIC on the Powered Motherboard, each RS version, (RS4, RS5, RS6, RSL) has their own VCO frequency to Run Level.  I can assure you that RS4 run table VCO frequencies are not compatible with the Powered Motherboard (it has the RS5 tables).   Steamers should be OK, if you say it works electrically. 

I have standardized many things over the past 10 years, and simplified many of the designs.  Still many things are not designed in CA, but in China, and the designs drift.  That is not all that bad, but you do see that the folks on this forum are looking to understand the variations, which is only natural.   What is really interesting is that sometimes our Engineering or Customer Service does not even know what electronics are in the products designed in China!   It is a trade-off for the limited resources we can have in the USA.

Thanks for this helpful info, Jon (even though it did come hours too late before my $100 mistake). At least I know the 5.5 Legacy boards should work for a typical upgrade setup I have, and will not be purchasing more of the 6.0 boards.

The GS4 4436 5.5 audio board might be good for conventional Daylights in need of TMCC.

Thank you again Jon. It appears its good to procrastinate. My RS6 Hudson RS board is plugged into a powered motherboard as I type. Still working on speaker placement so it hasn't been powered up yet. Non powered motherboard from this engine has been ordered thanks to the heads up.

Since all the electronics will be Legacy I won't be able to confirm if it will work with ERR stuff nor will I experiment. Sounds like Bruk has though.

Pete

Just to muddy the waters, and make a even more complex solution.....

I once ran into some of the issues mentioned above, and I resolved it by -----  Using 2 different Radio boards programmed to the same ID.  You wouldn't want to pass this on to normal end user customers, since you need to have 2 program/run switches and have a good understanding of why.

One ran the motor controls, one ran the rail sounds.  Not recommending it for the faint of heart.  I don't recall about the VCO at the moment though.   On the 2nd radio board had to solder to the back of the board pads the power/gnd/serial/etc.  Since you don't have a motherboard to plug it into.  Oh a separate Antenna wire is needed as well.

Keep in mind doing this your going to have to have 2 separate serial circuits.  Don't mix them.  In essence you end up with 2 different setups inside the same shell, both responding independently to the TMCC/Legacy signal.

Sorry if I added to the confusion.

Jim

SantaFeFan posted:

John,

It may electrically work, however as I mentioned it was not designed for RS4.  One item to note is the Diesel RPM function is driven by a VCO in the PIC on the Powered Motherboard, each RS version, (RS4, RS5, RS6, RSL) has their own VCO frequency to Run Level.  I can assure you that RS4 run table VCO frequencies are not compatible with the Powered Motherboard (it has the RS5 tables).   Steamers should be OK, if you say it works electrically. 

I have standardized many things over the past 10 years, and simplified many of the designs.  Still many things are not designed in CA, but in China, and the designs drift.  That is not all that bad, but you do see that the folks on this forum are looking to understand the variations, which is only natural.   What is really interesting is that sometimes our Engineering or Customer Service does not even know what electronics are in the products designed in China!   It is a trade-off for the limited resources we can have in the USA.

As always Jon, thanks for the clear and lucid explanation of things Lionel.  

I'm planning on using the powered motherboards in a couple of Station Sounds Diner retrofits, so they should work as intended I would imagine.  I just use a magnet and reed switch to trigger motion effects.  I will also keep any RS6 board far away from the powered MB.

The many variations are sometimes a mystery, and as in this example, many of us learn the do's and don'ts by empirical methods of try and fry.

One curious question still remains.

I did install the RS6 board in a motherboard with a standard Modular power supply and R2LC, (the Station Sounds Diner MB), and it functioned as expected, no smoke.  It still works fine in the Legacy T1 Duplex, so it appears it didn't suffer any grievous harm.  What is different between the standard TMCC motherboards and the powered motherboard that would cook the RS6 board?

I told you so:-)!!!!  But most learn by doing.    By the way, good luck with a return from Lionel.  G