Lionel 2037 Steamer Won't Run

I would recheck the wiring on the 2037, it sounds like a wire is off or miss routed. On the 2056 my best guess is the E unit.    Lenny

agree on both points.

so far no luck but I am still grinding through this! I polished the commutators with crocus cloth and cleaned the brushes and commutator surface with naptha.  After working on the most sophisticated FM tuners I am thwarted by a toy train! 

I did continuity tests and all the e unit contact fingers are making perfect contact with the drum no resistance and all wires are intact. As i cycle through the e unit steps I measure transformer voltage at the brushes and the field is energized at positions 1 and 5. The brushes are floating on the armature freely and are transmitting voltage to the commutator. Wiring is correct.

I polished the commutator with crocus cloth and now wonder if somehow this damaged the armature or if it was bad to begin with although the engine did run in reverse only at one point. I measure 2 ohms between commutator sections an 20 ohms between the armature shaft and each section which is consistent with a working engine (wires not disconnected) so there are no apparent shorts.

Everything looks fine and it won't run. I must be missing something but I have no idea what.

Double check your wire routing: 

Good luck! 

Mitch

Thank you I have this and more. Everything seems to jive. no luck yet

(nods) What sort of transformer are you using?  Might want to check the output to ensure it's not overvoltage-ing.  

Mitch

pull the side rods and make sure nothing is binding the wheels.

unhook the e unit and see if it runs then.

have you tried a different engine on your track to make sure the transformer of track isn't the problem? I've had track problems pop up out of now where, usually a switch or section of track shorting out. I set up my Uncle's train board this christmas, everything ran fine, set up the tree and then nothing. Traced it down to bad wires for the RC track.

Steamer posted:

pull the side rods and make sure nothing is binding the wheels.

unhook the e unit and see if it runs then.

have you tried a different engine on your track to make sure the transformer of track isn't the problem? I've had track problems pop up out of now where, usually a switch or section of track shorting out. I set up my Uncle's train board this christmas, everything ran fine, set up the tree and then nothing. Traced it down to bad wires for the RC track.

I am working on this at the bench so I am not even using track I make hardwire connections. I have other engines that run fine so my setup is OK. 

When I started on this engine I bypassed the e-unit and it ran. Now nothing. And I checked even the resistances between the drum and contacts and it is fine. Everything is clean and pretty. I do notice that now when I try to bypass the e-unit the motor hums and the field winding gets hot. 

I cleaned everything with naptha (lighter fluid) including the motor brushes. Naptha dissolves all the carbon residue and old grease and oil like magic and leaves everything clean and de-greased. The motor is immaculate. The wiring is good I have the wiring schematics as a guide.

I am clearly missing something so until I find anything new I have to keep grinding at it. I once had a problem with a stereo receiver that took me 4 months to find. Just all of a sudden one day I looked at it and saw what was wrong. This is why when I was in banking we always had two different people check figures or whatever because it is extremely difficult for one individual alone to pick up a mistake especially if he caused it. 

What I have done many times with complex amplifier issues is to use a working one as a model to compare voltages etc. I will probably resort to that if necessary. 

The thought of a bad armature I think is unlikely considering all I hear about how bullet proof these motors are - but you DO see enough non working motors around so I don't know. These don't seem like delicate motors that are easily damaged. 

I have a wheel puller so if I decide to change the armature its no problem. In the meantime I'm going to order some new brushes. And maybe an armature LOL.

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

(nods) What sort of transformer are you using?  Might want to check the output to ensure it's not overvoltage-ing.  

Mitch

Its my "bench" transformer a Lionel 1053 60 watts. I think the horn diode is shot as that don't work but I measure the output at about 16 VAC max. Other engines run fine with it I just did a 2343 F3 Diesel and a few other steamers it works fine. 

Just guessing, but maybe a cold solder joint?  Wire broken inside the insulation?  Brush jammed in its well and not making contact with the commutator??  These motors are stone-simple, E-unit is the #1 source of problems.  If you bypass the E-unit it should almost always run.

Off-topic, but the relay-based drop-in replacement for steam loco e-units is one product that was discontinued before its time :-(

All of this has been checked and the brushes are floating quite well. All parts have been meticulously cleaned. What bothers me is that voltage is getting to the brushes! I will dig further. I even went as far as to slowly advance the e-unit drum with a jewelers screwdriver and nothing. LOL.

You are measuring voltage from one brush to wheels (ground)? (across field)  I wonder if the Naptha dissolves the armature insulation (shellac).  I use Go Jo hand cleaner (lanolin).

Well it sounds like you know what your doing to see if you armature is good here is a method that will tell you if its good or bad

Lot of words here but its easy and simple as you will see if you try it

As a note when testing only apply a only few volts.

Remove brushplate hook up 2 wires to transformer only apply low voltage then put 1 lead on commutator segement with other wire touch the segment next to it . If it sparks or armature jumps your good do this until you tested all the segments.

Then touch the armature shaft coming out of it with 1 lead and other lead touch a segment there should be no spark do this with all 3 segments.

Now if the above 2 procedures test ok your armature is good .

The spark method of armature testing won't detect a shorted armature winding.  Only if it is shorted to the frame (second test).  If the armature coil windings themselves are shorted to each other (insulation failure) the only true way to test is a growler.   You will get better results testing your armature segments (between commutator bars) if you use an ohmeter set to a low scale.  Again this is not a definitive test but rather shows continuity.  The growler requires the armature to be separate from the motor.

@rkenney  What's a growler?  I've never heard of electrical hardware labeled with that term!

rkenney posted:

You are measuring voltage from one brush to wheels (ground)? (across field)  I wonder if the Naptha dissolves the armature insulation (shellac).  I use Go Jo hand cleaner (lanolin).

Yes voltage from brush to ground. I have washed entire e unit coils in lighter fluid and no issues. Also, the field is not shorted. But that thought crossed my mind too. I had to step away from this thing for a while I'm getting cross-eyed.

Yes I know about the growler. My '54 Olds has a generator and the only way to REALLY test the armature is on a growler. Years ago these places that rebuilt starters and generators all had growlers. Without the growler, the best way to read low resistances is with a Simpson 260 (which I also collect!) but this is a rudimentary test. 

I have other similar motors around I am just going to swap some stuff out if necessary. If this turns out to be something really stupid I am going to feel like a real dummy...

Naphtha will definitely not dissolve the shellac insulation on our motors, but drug store alcohol will.

This shows a growler in use.

Larry