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62 replies

Lionel 28069 Problem Solved!

D dukeofnukeOGR Forum Member

After pulling eight heavyweight Vanderbilt cars the nylon gears in my Niagara went south for the winter. I got in touch with NWSL, and talked with a gentleman there. I asked about getting some brass gears made for my engine. He said that the brass gears would not work well with the brass counter shaft. Was told the new gears would not last/work well. So I ordered some high tech plastic gears from them. Trying to work out some of the weak points of Lionel's underengineering in some of my expensive Lionel engines. Also picked up some stainless 4mm u joints for future applications. Any other suggestions would be helpful.

Last edited by dukeofnuke
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D dukeofnukeOGR Forum Member

I will let you know how everything goes. Haven't got the new gears yet. Dave at NWSL is sending the new gears I bought from Lionel along with the gears they are making as replacements. When I talked with him on the phone, I explored the possibility of ordering extra gears rather than pay the set up fees. Thought maybe I could sell them to help defray the set up cost. That idea did not float well.

D500D500OGR Forum Member

Funny that only the Lionel Niagara seems to have this issue. I don't know about "underengineering", but I have never heard of any of their other locos doing this. You mention the EM-1 - I do not have it and know nothing of its reputation.

 

I have the Lionel Niagara, and it had indeed been a bothersome loco, but the gears seem fine. However, my driveshaft split on it, and I fixed it with brass tubing that fit precisely over the split piece. Then the motherboard failed...smoke is meh...eccentric rod rivet failed...

 

Certainly not all Lionel Niagaras have eaten their gears, I can only presume, but it is a definite problem with many of them.

 

Other Lionel steamers do not seem to be "underengineered". One assumes. I've run many of them.

 

An annoying situation - another reason that Lionel should re-issue the Niagara soon with all issues loudly addressed to exorcise its reputation's demons.

 

 

D dukeofnukeOGR Forum Member

The Niagara gears in the gearbox were supposedly designed to be the weak point of the drivetrain. Pull too much weight, break the gears. I don't think that eight Vanderbilt cars would be considered too much weight, then again the gears broke. The EM1 came from the factory with a driveshaft that was ill designed. The end cup was press fit on one end and cross drilled and pinned on the other. Lionel sells a replacement shaft that is drilled and pinned on both ends for $20.00. One would think when you spend $1200.00 for an engine the new owner would get to run it for months instead of hours without a breakdown. Both engines lasted about two hours, then broke.

N NortonOGR Forum Member

You got me curious on why NWSL discouraged you from buying extra gears to spread the cost. I know of two others besides myself who would be interested in buying them.

Besides the U joint and gears the other weak item is the deck apron. Its diecast and breaks easily. The pivot is in the wrong location which should be on the same plane as the deck itself. Instead is a 1/4" below that so the deck cannot rise above horizontal. If you lift the tender before lifting the engine the force will break the apron. Also running on rough track or on grades with sharp transitions can cause the tender to hit the apron. Any small force will shatter the deck. You can break it between your fingers. 

If you do want to run your engine you would be better off leaving the deck down, not resting on the tender deck.

 

Pete

Last edited by Norton
D dukeofnukeOGR Forum Member

I've seen a post on remaking the apron from brass. I removed it from my engine since it was a pita to put in place when putting the engine/tender on the track. The guy at NWSL changed his story when I decided to order more gears to sell here. I thought why pay $75.00 set up fee per gear, and then $10.00 per gear every time? So I told him I wanted six of each. Then was told it would cost $75.00 set up fee for each and every gear. I'm still waiting for the turnip truck to show up, so I can get back on. And by the way, I was pushed!

D dukeofnukeOGR Forum Member

You are absolutely right, $85.00 per gear, times two. If I remember correctly, I bought replacement gears from Lionel for 10 or 12 bucks each, plus shipping. But the stock gears are junk. Lots of guys on here have broken gears in this engine. I thought I might help others and cut my cost down. That was not to be. The eight ball ain't in the pocket yet. I'll find someone with some business sense.

N NortonOGR Forum Member

I was going to do the same thing you did but by the time I got around to ordering the gears from Lima, they were sold out. I would have prefered to buy a set of gears rather than take my engine apart to remove the gears, especially since mine haven't broken yet.

I am hoping I can find a source for them ready made, even if its just close I can modify them to fit.

NWSL must cut them on manual machines rather than CNC equipment if he charges a setup for every gear he makes.

btw I think delrin can be 3D printed. This might be a better way to mass produce them.

Pete

N NortonOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by leapinlarry:

So, a metal drive shaft is recommended? Also steel gears are recommended? If someone would send me an email to the best supplier for these needed parts, or a phone number, or email, I would be Very Grateful. Thank You...

I posted this a few years ago. The SDP U Joint is is what I am running in my engine. Since then I found an all metal solution on the auction site that shall not be named. Just search on 4 mm Universal Joint and you will see them. You need two. Just make sure they are 4mm to 4mm. Some are 4mm to some other size. The pair would be coupled togther with a piece of 4 mm rod. I and friend picked up a pair and will use if needed but I am confident the SDP part will work. Had I found the all metal ones first those would be in the engine now.

 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...l-nyc-niagara-owners

 

Duke, when did you order your gears from North Lima? I tried about 8 months ago and was told they are NLA From them. I know Lionel has been out of stock for years. North Lima indicates they are in stock now, at least they don't say NLA but I am not confident their website is correct And heavens forbid you try and call or email them.

 

Pete

Last edited by Norton
D dukeofnukeOGR Forum Member

I ordered my gears from Lima about a month ago. I did shoot them an email first to make sure they had both gears. They now do have both gears. But since the Niagara is such a treat to take apart, I'm going to make sure I replace the stock gears with something that can handle pulling a load. I also bought the 4mm u joints from that unnameable auction site.

D dukeofnukeOGR Forum Member

I just checked the 4mm u joints that I bought from a not mentioned auction site. They are 23.8mm long. The ones used to replace the Lionel plastic u joints in the above link are 37mm in length. I wonder if the ones I have will work without modification. I bought eight of them because I also have to repair my EM1 Lionel # 6-28051. Also nice to have extra parts for future repairs.

Mikado 4501Mikado 4501OGR Forum Member
Marty Fitzhenry posted:

That is a good looking engine.  I am thinking what a great locomotive that would be done in Legacy.  Some good electronics and good gears.  The current Lionel people will do it right this time and add whistle smoke also.

Amen Marty.

We'll see what happens in 2016 Volume 1. One of my best friends has one of these and he has also ran into the same gear issues, as well as other issues from the Odyssey boards and the smoke unit.

P PRR1950OGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

OK, now I'm confused.  Your 1/1/16 post says NWSL refused to make new gears because too difficult.  Now your 12/2020 post says engine is running fine with NWSL gears.  Did they change their minds and produce for you or did you get new gears from somewhere else?  With the new gears, can you run the consist length you prefer?

Chuck

H harmonyardsOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

Me either, ....I’ve fixed quite a few of these....the only gears I’m aware of are the brass gears that Lionel made once they realized they had a mess on their hands....a custom nylon or whatever plastic he’d mentioned would require a mold....and molds are expensive,.....they  (NWSL) isn’t gonna create a mold for one buyer.....that would be a ooooober expensive pair of gears,.I could see them cut a brass gear ona gear maker in onesy twosey, but even that, a watch maker level craftsman ain’t gonna be cheap neither.....I’d like to know what happened too....doesn’t add up...

Pat



..

D DaveGGOGR Forum Member

I am wondering the same thing.  I purchased a couple of spare gears from Lionel while hey had them to cover the two engines I have.  One engine I got new, the other was an engine in need of repair from an auction house that I just could not resist to bring back to life.

So dukeofnuke, could you please clarify?  And do you have any extra (high quality) gears?

By the way, has anyone looked at trying to modify the older Niagara with the new gear box, etc. that are in latest release of this same engine?

N NortonOGR Forum Member

I believe it was Bob2 back in the original Niagara gear thread who pointed out the best Delrin gears are cut, not molded and that NWSL plastic gears were cut. Stock Drive Parts offered a Delrin gear in the same sizes as the Lionel gear that was also cut but it turned out the SDP gears are a straight cut spur gear vs the helical gear Lionel uses. The helix is very subtle though and only obvious when placed next to the spur gear.

Pete

H harmonyardsOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
@DaveGG posted:

I am wondering the same thing.  I purchased a couple of spare gears from Lionel while hey had them to cover the two engines I have.  One engine I got new, the other was an engine in need of repair from an auction house that I just could not resist to bring back to life.

So dukeofnuke, could you please clarify?  And do you have any extra (high quality) gears?

By the way, has anyone looked at trying to modify the older Niagara with the new gear box, etc. that are in latest release of this same engine?

Dave, once the brass gears are in there, there’s no more issues with the gear boxes.....there’s a couple schools of thought on repairing these, Alex M probably holds the record on the most repaired, and Pete ( Norton) has fixed a few, and I believe he sets up the metal knuckle drive shaft for Alex....I took a different approach on mine, and a couple others, by getting rid of the shaft with the knuckle all together, and converting them to cup and dog bone, doing that negated me altering the gear box mount, and I opted for a “ floating” box design that allows the gear box to wander as it wants, ( just a wee bit) and that takes any residual “bind” out of the driveline....IMO they didn’t do the best job engineering the drive line, but the model itself is a winner...

Pat

Last edited by harmonyards
N NortonOGR Forum Member

Just to add what Pat says, using to Vision Niagara gearbox would be a very expensive operation. The only way to get the axle gear and gearbox from the Vision engine is to buy the whole frame with wheels. Lionel has put a price tag of a cool 500 bucks on that little gem.

The brass gears have been endurance tested in the trenches and so far passed with flying colors pulling 13 car passenger trains for many hours with no failures. At 6 bucks for a set of gears its by far the best bargain Lionel offers.

Thank you Mike R. You are missed.

Pete

H harmonyardsOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
@Norton posted:

I believe it was Bob2 back in the original Niagara gear thread who pointed out the best Delrin gears are cut, not molded and that NWSL plastic gears were cut. Stock Drive Parts offered a Delrin gear in the same sizes as the Lionel gear that was also cut but it turned out the SDP gears are a straight cut spur gear vs the helical gear Lionel uses. The helix is very subtle though and only obvious when placed next to the spur gear.

Pete

I stand corrected, ....I wouldn’t have thought a nylon gear would be cut in the same fashion a brass gear would be.......but then again, I’ve always avoided a nylon or any plastic gear like it’s got the plaque......and I own a couple with plastic gears.....🤢🤮

Pat

N NortonOGR Forum Member

I believe Bob also mentioned there are different grades of Delrin too. Maybe he will chime in if he sees this thread.

These are the SDP gears I modified to fit the Niagara. Before I installed them Mike announced he was going to make the brass gears. Given what a chore it is to install the geras I opted to just wait for Lionel's. You might be able to see how close the SDP straight cut gears are to Lionel's helical gears at the top.

image

Pete

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Last edited by Norton
N NortonOGR Forum Member
@dukeofnuke posted:

N.W.S.L. gears installed, engine still runs great and quiet, five years later. Wish I could figure out how to upload a video from my phone to here. Going back to playing with trains, now that I have solved the problem that Lionel left us with for several years.

If your video has been posted to youtube you use the directions poated here.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...a-youtube-video-here

If it still resides on your computer simply hit the link below the box that you type your messages in that says, "Add Attachments". Select your video and it will compress it and upload it.

Pete

Last edited by Norton
P PH1975OGR Forum Member

dukeofnuke - I'm baffled by your inquiry as to how to add smoke fluid to the tender as it sounds like you're thinking of the most recent Legacy release of the Niagara (which has the ability to release smoke from the base of the tender to represent a 'water' effect) when in fact your engine is a Century Club II release from several years ago, is not Legacy equipped, and doesn't have the aforementioned water effect.

P PH1975OGR Forum Member

dukeofnuke - As for the general instructions relating to this particular engine (and/or tender) I assume you have the Owner's Manual for it.  However, if you don't and you'd be interested in reviewing it just call up 'Lionel Support' or type in 'Lionel Service Manuals', then select Resources on the top left hand side, type in the product number (6-28069) in the space provided and click on Search, and voila - the Owner's Manual will be listed and all you have to do is click on it and it will open. (Note: I already skimmed through it and it doesn't say anything about adding smoke to the tender). 

D dukeofnukeOGR Forum Member

I have already downloaded the instructions from Lionel for my 6-28069. No mention of loading smoke fluid into the tender, or how to activate it. But there is a movable lid on the back of the tender? Plus there are bent tubes above the truck's on the back of the tender? Decoration, I think not. Just want to get all of the "play" out of ALL of my trains, now that I have this one running again.

H harmonyardsOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
@dukeofnuke posted:

So then I take it that the 6024 version of the 6-2069 Niagara does not have a smoke unit in the tender If that is the case, why the lid on top of the back of the tender with small holes? Just another one of life's little misteries that needs an answer. Not like Lionel to add a useless feature for no reason. Not cost effective.

It’s called a detail ......opening hinges and hatches are part of the details .....cast in parts lack that extra bit of ooomph....

Pat

N NortonOGR Forum Member
@dukeofnuke posted:

So then I take it that the 6024 version of the 6-2069 Niagara does not have a smoke unit in the tender If that is the case, why the lid on top of the back of the tender with small holes? Just another one of life's little misteries that needs an answer. Not like Lionel to add a useless feature for no reason. Not cost effective.

Many times the volume control and sound on/off switch are under that hatch.

Pete

Last edited by Norton
RadioRonRadioRonOGR Forum Member
@dukeofnuke posted:

So then I take it that the 6024 version of the 6-2069 Niagara does not have a smoke unit in the tender?  If that is the case, why the lid on top of the back of the tender with small holes?   Just another one of life's little mysteries that needs an answer.

Ok, I will ask!   I've been involved with O gauge trains for a lot of years... but, what is N.W.S.L?

P PH1975OGR Forum Member

dukeofnuke - Yep, those switches are just as illustrated on page 9 of the Owner's Manual.  Earlier you said you'd downloaded the Owner's Manual for this loco but I'm wondering if you actually familiarized yourself with what it said.  It's amazing what's contained therein.

Enjoy your Niagara and I hope you have a Merry Christmas!

D dukeofnukeOGR Forum Member

Yup, read, and reread the manual. No mention of tender functions other than sounds. Also read some earlier manuals of Lionels Century Club ll Niagara's. I think there were six iterations, if l remember correctly. Some did have "water effect" smoke units.  But no adjustments to be made under the sand dome, or tender, on my units. More train time, l say!

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