Is this engine considered scale in the same sense as the reading t1 or NYC 700e?
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Yes!
I hope to see this engine come out in Vision Line with all the toys. It is a beautiful locomotive in CC. I still have a hard time with the 2 chuffs. Not a locomotive to trick out as it has value at this time. Legacy Rules.
While many still find the Lionel version very desirable, it has many more issues than the MTH and 3rd Rail versions that preceeded it. While they all have the big Pittman motor and run smoothly, the Lionel engine has plastic gears and a plastic U joint which are prone to failure. The gears are NLA. Fortunately there are other sources for metal U Joints, still looking for metal gears though. Some of the Lionel engines had flaking paint on the wheels as well.
By comparison, the MTH has better detail, all metal drive, and 4 chuffs. The 3rd Rail engine has TMCC but without cruise. You could purchase either and convert to ERR Cruise, 4 chuffs with a Super Chuffer if you run only TMCC or Legacy. MTH has just released a new version with PS3 at a reasonable price by current standards. I imagine if Lionel ever released a Legacy version it would cost half again as much as the new MTH engine.
edit: One more issue with the Lionel engine is the cab apron is diecast and easily broken. The majority you see for resale will have a broken or missing apron. This too is NLA.
I collect engines by prototype, not manufacturer, just trying to give an objective comparison.
MTH PS2 Niagara ca 2001
3rd Rail Niagara
Lionel CC Niagara
Pete
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Originally Posted by Norton:
While many still find the Lionel version very desirable, it has many more issues than the MTH and 3rd Rail versions that preceeded it. While they all have the big Pittman motor and run smoothly, the Lionel engine has plastic gears and a plastic U joint which are prone to failure. The gears are NLA. Fortunately there are other sources for metal U Joints, still looking for metal gears though. Some of the Lionel engines had flaking paint on the wheels as well.
My $.02
Pete
I agree, these locos are tempting because of the rediculously low price they can be had for, typically $500 or less. Thats entirely due to the numerous problems that plague these locos.
As these locos are getting up in age there seems to be more posts on the plastic gears failing.
I come close to "pulling the trigger" every time I see one for sale, then remember I'll pass on the headaches.
Several have changed hands more than once on the for sale forum. I suspect the fantastic soundset ( aside from the 2 chuffs) is not enough to prevent owners from tiring of the mechanical and cosmetic issues.
I'd like to think, eventually we'll see one with legacy or as VL. Its one of a few locos that Lionel has not redone with legacy.
Its definately one of Lionels better tooled locos ( full round boiler) and hopefully Mike Reagan would see to it that it has metal gears this time.
Having said all that, if you want one now I agree that the MTH version would certainly be a solid performer at a fair price.
Yes $1000 is double the silly $500 price of the CC version, but the MTH version will likely run without any major issue for most or all of its lifetime.
I have two from MTH.
Like Marty, I would also like to see Lionel make a fully detailed Vision Line version of this beautiful loco with all the "bells and whistles.
Mike
I have the MTH version and the Sunset/3rd Rail version. I tend to prefer the Sunset/3rd Rail version the best.
For what it's worth, our local hobby shop had the new, latest, MTH version on the shelf when I was there yesterday (it is a different road number too).
Although to date I have not experienced any mechanical or cosmetic problems with my CC version of the Niagara and it is a good performer, I too would like to see it produced with legacy. Bo
I'm with Marty on this one, waiting for a Legacy version 
Alex
As I have stated many times I am an MTH guy with a few MTH locomotives. I am a huge Legacy fan also and always find a Legacy locomotive in each catalog that I have to have. The last catalog hit me with the ESE and B-6. Both are a must and are ordered.
Alex, I would love a Niagara with whistle smoke and the cylinder effects the Milwaukee Northern has.
Originally Posted by Alex M:
I'm with Marty on this one, waiting for a Legacy version
Alex
A legacy one with smoking whistle and around 1450 In price I would consider a buy.. If it's near 2k they can keep it ..
Same here, with the Legacy engines catching up
Next to the NYC Hudson, this is my favorite loco. It bugs me that well-done Hudsons are available all over, but I seem to have trouble with Lionel and MTH on this point.
- I have a Lionel; it has been a problem, but runs well...right now.
- I bought an MTH used last year (PS2) and it is electronically pretty shabby (will not respond to my Remote Commander and the PS2 cruise does not work correctly; yes, it is at Factory Defaults) - it will get ERR Cruise Commander and RS one day. I feel that the Lionel loco is more attractive, however.
The MTH tender also has tracking issues on some curves.
- and there's this, below: Williams/Samhongsa, late 80's (my first weathering job...), ERR Cruise Commander/ERR Sound Commander/original Seuthe smoke unit (works sometimes, sometimes, not so much). Runs well; tender tracks better than either Lionel's or MTH's; seems reliable.
Missing some details, I know.
These show up for under $400, TRO or better. Add CC. $400 + 200 + some labor =
1:48 scale brass Niagara (with those nice sprung drivers; L and M versions seem stiff-legged by comparison), reliable, for $600 and a little cussing. Weather/paint your brains out - it's not a pricey prima donna.
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Key word being USED. I get calls every week from people complaining about fleabay junk. I learned many years ago that you only get what you pay for. The MTH electronics are very good. If you buy from a site where someone tells you it ran good when it left, good luck.
I see older Lionel Hudsons going for very short money. They are what they are. The Vision Line Hudson is the greatest Hudson ever made. I feel it can never be bettered.
We have the latest MTH Niagara and both the passenger and freight sets in stock at our humble little abode. I'd love to move some of these!
I am very happy with the latest MTH version. It is certain good enough that I would not look at a Legacy or Vision version right now: quite detailed and good looking, great runner, good sound. I'm not into NYC but I am so glad I bought that loco.
Originally Posted by railhead53:
Although to date I have not experienced any mechanical or cosmetic problems with my CC version of the Niagara and it is a good performer, I too would like to see it produced with legacy. Bo
Aside from a troublesome chuff switch early on, +1.
Bob
Hi! I have a never run Century Club Niagara. I'm the original owner. I never had 054 track so that's why I never ran it. Now I have 048 Fastrack and I'm wondering if the Niagara can take the curve. Has anyone tried it? Thanks.
Rickw2 posted:Hi! I have a never run Century Club Niagara. I'm the original owner. I never had 054 track so that's why I never ran it. Now I have 048 Fastrack and I'm wondering if the Niagara can take the curve. Has anyone tried it? Thanks.
Put the tender on the track and see if it rolls without derailing. The long wheelbase is the limiting factor.
Pete
@Norton posted:Put the tender on the track and see if it rolls without derailing. The long wheelbase is the limiting factor.
Pete
Has anyone tried this with the CC Niagara? I might consider purchasing a used one but my outer loop is O48 Fastrack.
@Madockawando posted:Has anyone tried this with the CC Niagara? I might consider purchasing a used one but my outer loop is O48 Fastrack.
No way thats gonna happen.
The pivoting 6 wheel trucks on your diesel and the rigid long wheelbase of a steamer are far different things.
I have a hudson that won't run on o-48.
Okay...
@RickO posted:No way thats gonna happen.
The pivoting 6 wheel trucks on your diesel and the rigid long wheelbase of a steamer are far different things.
I have a hudson that won't run on o-48.
PT Tender Hudson I bet? The locomotive will do 048, tender no way. Niagara probably has the same issue. My Premier UP FEF will do 054 no problem, the centipede tender doesn't like anything less than 072.
@Norton posted:While many still find the Lionel version very desirable, it has many more issues than the MTH and 3rd Rail versions that preceeded it. While they all have the big Pittman motor and run smoothly, the Lionel engine has plastic gears and a plastic U joint which are prone to failure. The gears are NLA. Fortunately there are other sources for metal U Joints, still looking for metal gears though. Some of the Lionel engines had flaking paint on the wheels as well.
By comparison, the MTH has better detail, all metal drive, and 4 chuffs. The 3rd Rail engine has TMCC but without cruise. You could purchase either and convert to ERR Cruise, 4 chuffs with a Super Chuffer if you run only TMCC or Legacy. MTH has just released a new version with PS3 at a reasonable price by current standards. I imagine if Lionel ever released a Legacy version it would cost half again as much as the new MTH engine.
edit: One more issue with the Lionel engine is the cab apron is diecast and easily broken. The majority you see for resale will have a broken or missing apron. This too is NLA.
I collect engines by prototype, not manufacturer, just trying to give an objective comparison.
MTH PS2 Niagara ca 2001
3rd Rail Niagara
Lionel CC Niagara
Pete
Which is your favorite? Love my 3drail Niagara.
@Lou1985 posted:PT Tender Hudson I bet? The locomotive will do 048, tender no way. Niagara probably has the same issue. My Premier UP FEF will do 054 no problem, the centipede tender doesn't like anything less than 072.
Actually Lou, its the old Lionel 50th anniversary J3a. The rear set of pilot wheels rub the valve guide hangar and the drawbar catches on the piping at the rear of then cab. My ESE hudson will do o-48.
I've been contemplating grabbing one of these CCII Niagaras myself, for my o-60 loop. However, they seemed to have gone up in price and become more scarce as of late. I've noticed that with the J3a's as well.
Either of these models used to be regularly available on the "secondary market" in the $500-$600 range
Its almost as if the new versions have drummed up interest in the older ones.
Must be all those "replacing a Canon with a Pittman" threads.
On a side note. Quillable or not. I think the whistle on that CCII Niagara is one of the best Lionel has ever done. Its a matter of personal taste I suppose.
I can run my 38097 PT Tender on the O45 (Atlas) loop... you can feel it tighten slightly ...but, it's the yard and reversing loop (all turnouts are O72) so everything runs reasonable slow. No derailments.
@superwarp1 posted:Which is your favorite? Love my 3drail Niagara.
No doubt the 3rd Rail has the best detail but 2 out of my three required extensive repairs on the brass. One was new in the box when I got it but I found parts in the bottom of the box when I unwrapped it. The MTH is nice with few issues other than the feedwater pumps breaking off. My favorite is actually the Lionel CC one partially because of the work I put into it. Its pretty bulletproof now.
This is also a CC Niagara renumbered and upgraded to include a 4 lobe cam.
Pete
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@RickO posted:Actually Lou, its the old Lionel 50th anniversary J3a. The rear set of pilot wheels rub the valve guide hangar and the drawbar catches on the piping at the rear of then cab. My ESE hudson will do o-48.
I've been contemplating grabbing one of these CCII Niagaras myself, for my o-60 loop. However, they seemed to have gone up in price and become more scarce as of late. I've noticed that with the J3a's as well.
Either of these models used to be regularly available on the "secondary market" in the $500-$600 range
Its almost as if the new versions have drummed up interest in the older ones.
Must be all those "replacing a Canon with a Pittman" threads.
On a side note. Quillable or not. I think the whistle on that CCII Niagara is one of the best Lionel has ever done. Its a matter of personal taste I suppose.
Ah. I didn't know that. I figured the Lionel model had enough clearance in those areas and the tender was the issue.
New versions may have drummed up interest (i.e. this is cheaper, I want it, but limited supply) or the pandemic. Prices have gone up on a lot of used stuff. Have you tried looking for a MTH Premier model with blown 5V boards and converting it to TMCC? Those can still be had for decent money. Better driveline than the Lionel version and a larger Pittman (Premier has a 9434, CCII has a 9433).
I always throw this into the Niagara debate. I have the MTH (w/Cruise Commander conversion), the CC (so far so good on the gears - I have the parts), and I have this Niagara below. Old photo (my layout even looks better now), Cruise Commander/sound upgrade, my first weathering job. Brass, sprung drivers (all should have these) and the most agile PT tender of all the brands.
It's a Williams, no Pittman, quiet, a few skipped details (some easily added), reliable, and I have seen some in the last year for $300/mint. Paint over the shiny parts like the wheels/rods, Dullcote it, do some basic weathering, maybe Dullcote it again. I haven't run it for a while, but I honestly think this one may run the best of all of them.
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@Norton posted:No doubt the 3rd Rail has the best detail but 2 out of my three required extensive repairs on the brass. One was new in the box when I got it but I found parts in the bottom of the box when I unwrapped it. The MTH is nice with few issues other than the feedwater pumps breaking off. My favorite is actually the Lionel CC one partially because of the work I put into it. Its pretty bulletproof now.
This is also a CC Niagara renumbered and upgraded to include a 4 lobe cam.
Pete
Did anybody besides me catch onto Pete’s statement “ 2 out of the 3” .......and Pete says I have a gazzillion engines,...my man has 3 ....count them,...3 .....3rd Rail Niagaras,......I think he’s sandbagging in the arms race,.....😉
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Did anybody besides me catch onto Pete’s statement “ 2 out of the 3” .......and Pete says I have a gazzillion engines,...my man has 3 ....count them,...3 .....3rd Rail Niagaras,......I think he’s sandbagging in the arms race,.....😉
Pat
Pete doesn’t even know how many Hudson’s he has!
@NYC Z-MAN posted:Pete doesn’t even know how many Hudson’s he has!
I’d bet he has more than me,....😉
Pat
@harmonyards posted:I’d bet he has more than me,....😉
Pat
Well I only have five Hudsons and I bet Pete has more.
@superwarp1 posted:Well I only have five Hudsons and I bet Pet has more.
He probably ran out of available cab numbers,....
Pat
Hudson sightings in these parts have become fewer and fewer. Seems an anonymous buyer rumored to be somehwere south of the Mason Dixon line has been buying all the remaining ones. A clue to the location might be the satellite photos showing a strange sinkhole near the coast. Stay tuned for further details.
Pete
Pete, The last time I asked you I think you were in the mid twenties for Hudson’s. Its been a few years since!
Jim, I am a piker compared with the anonymous gentleman mentioned above.
Pete
@Norton posted:Jim, I am a piker compared with the anonymous gentleman mentioned above.
Pete
Don’t try and throw the dogs off the scent,.....😆😆😆....Harmon is small potatoes compared to the Spencerport Shops. .......
Pat
