Lionel ignoring the mid-market for motive power?

Covered in pretty good detail and re-surfaced recently here.

As to the comparison to K-Line, while none of us really know their numbers, it's generally accepted that they could not have sustained the pricing structure they were offering for the scale type pieces for too long.  They could very well have been losing money on those to grab some market share.

-Dave

I don't get this you can preorder plastic es44s for 385 bucks what do you want? You can get nyc Mohawks on blowout for under800 bucks maybe look for some deals? 

LionChief.

Just a suggestion, but I would reconsider the MTH offerings. You are leaving out a lot of nice items by excluding them. Don't know if you are scale only or not but the MTH Railking Imperial line is quite detailed and pretty reasonably priced, especially their steamers compared to the other MTH and Lionel scale versions. I am diesels only, but I happen to like both brands and have some from both. Each have their pros & cons.

If you are set on staying with only Lionel, then I think their LionChief Plus line is possibly geared toward the mid price range, similar to the MTH Railking Imperial line. It's been reported these are very nice engines. However, they don't have the full Legacy control system and require a separate remote. They do run in conventional by changing a switch position on the locomotive. 

I agree with you on the $1,000+ engines, I can't do that either, nor would I want to. Just too much for me for one locomotive. That's one reason I only have diesels and no steamers. I think it's good that they do make them though, for the people that do like them and can afford them. Not saying they should stop making them at all. A great selection to choose from is always good.

Lionel didn't buy K-Line.  As I recall, they only got the use of some tooling for a couple of years as part of a legal settlement.

Kader (Bachmann) now owns a good part of the K-Line tooling along with RMT.

Rusty

"cheap toys or unaffordable Vision line."

I get really tired of this kind of thinking. There are plenty of starter set Lionel products that are not cheap toys. My grandfather defined junk as something you paid too much for that didn't work as it was suppose to. By that definition, and by the vast amounts of complaints I read on this very forum, far more high end trains should be called junk.

I have NEVER had a one defect with a starter line product. And there's plenty of selection in the Lionel line up of starter products, while not true scale or having the potential defects of the Vision line, have acceptible detail levels given their price. And as has been mentioned, the LionChief Plus locos look very nice for their price.

And why not MTH if they make products that might be appropriate, other than they're MTH? I don't get it. I run Lionel, Williams, K-Line and RMT. I'm not going to waste time complaining when other companies make a product I like. Lionel makes what they make. When they make what I like, I get it. And if another company like RMT fills a void, then I get that.

Anyone who thinks Lionel (or any other company for that matter) is doing such a terrible job not serving YOUR needs, is totally free to start your own company and make the products you feel are being ignored. Find out just how cheap and easy it is to make billions of dollars in profits by running your very own train company.

Man, I wouldn't blame Lionel if they dropped the high end completely. A) it's not where they make their money and they could easily stay in business without it. B) they'd have far happier customers to deal with as I do not read the complaints and grumbles from those who like and buy the Lionel R-T-R products.

Agree with some of the others. Definitely check out the Lion Chief and Lion Chief Plus line of diesels, steamers, and sets. These seem to be exactly what you're looking for. Mid-range but with enough detail and nice features to bump them up beyond the basic toy train RTR sets.

Several threads here discussing these.

I'll check out the LionChief, see what it has.  Guess that's the product line I was looking for but not thorough enough to find on my own!! Thanks!

Yeah I could do that, if I was looking for either of those.  Unfortunately I'm a B&O guy, aiming more for the usual "late steam/early diesel" era, and although it was the country's first railroad, I have a hard time finding new Lionel locomotives under the B&O roadname.  Thank God for Ebay!!

Understood, but a starter set is a starter set.  All I'm saying is that I don't need another 2-4-2 scout or 0-4-0, nor can I afford a gorgeous $1,200 loco, I'm looking for something in the middle.  Sounds like LionChief is where I need to go.

And why not MTH if they make products that might be appropriate, other than they're MTH? I don't get it. I run Lionel, Williams, K-Line and RMT. I'm not going to waste time complaining when other companies make a product I like. Lionel makes what they make. When they make what I like, I get it. And if another company like RMT fills a void, then I get that.

I'm choosing Lionel for various reasons, including the operating system.  Like a lot of people, I'm not made of money, and I can't afford to buy Legacy/TMCC and DCS for my layout, its one or the other and I happen to have chosen Lionel's system.  I agree with you about buying what works, that's why I have several William's engines, and I have no problem buying other brands.  But I would like to operate using Legacy/TMCC so I would also like to get some Lionel offerings.  

Anyone who thinks Lionel (or any other company for that matter) is doing such a terrible job not serving YOUR needs, is totally free to start your own company and make the products you feel are being ignored. Find out just how cheap and easy it is to make billions of dollars in profits by running your very own train company.

Well that's a moot point, and I'll quote you, "I get really tired of this kind of thinking."  I can't afford to buy a thousand dollar locomotive, ergo I'm not going to start a manufacturing company.  Pointless statement, but I can tell you're passionate on this subject so I don't blame you for saying it.  It IS a good idea though, any venture capitalists in the room?

Man, I wouldn't blame Lionel if they dropped the high end completely. A) it's not where they make their money and they could easily stay in business without it. B) they'd have far happier customers to deal with as I do not read the complaints and grumbles from those who like and buy the Lionel R-T-R products.

Nah, there are people with the resources to afford the high end, just not me.  And I want something a little nicer than the R-T-R products.  Again, it looks like I need to aim towards LionChief.

Thanks all!!

Why choose sides?  As a couple of others have already posted, if one company offers products that appeal to you then buy it from them if the other one doesn't, and vice-versa.  When mentioning that MTH offering appealing engines at a more affordable price point, yet deliberately limiting your choices by brand name, you've in essence created your own dilemma.  The LionChief/LionChief Plus trains can't be controlled with the Legacy/TMCC handhelds, just their own controllers, and coupled with the fact that you stated yourself that you have Williams engines (they don't come equipped with TMCC/Legacy anyway) so really what's the difference? 

Negative, the Signature catalog with the thousand dollar Big Boys and Pennsy M1a's?  The cab-forwards and Zephyrs for over a grand? Even the Pennsy caboose is 100 dollars, FOR A CABOOSE?!?!

Maybe my idea of mid-range is too low.  Maybe I picked the wrong hobby or wrong scale!

I don't choose sides either.  I buy both MTH and Lionel - but I think both MTH and Lionel do address the "mid-market."  I have a number of very fine, scale Lionel steamers that cost much less than $1000: scale Atlantic and Legacy 0-8-0 for below $600 each, 0-4-0 Shifters around $450, Legacy NYC Mohawk at around $750, and a Mogul for around $625.  All faill into what I see as the lower middle ground.  In a world were the high end (Vision) lists for $2,000 to $2,700, Premier and legacy locos -  $1,000 to $1,300 list - is literally in the middle.

I believe the Lion Chief Plus engines are also in the Signature catalog and right now there are preorders available for those engines at 25% off msrp putting the cost at around $325.

First off, we just moved out to WV from El Centro, CA; we used to LOVE going to Balboa and visiting the train museum.  Are you a member there?  You're a lucky guy.

Yeah, the Williams engines don't have L/TMCC, but they don't have DCS either, so they're a neutral option!  Eventually, I could attempt to upgrade them (yeah right) however if I buy a DCS equipped loco from MTH then I'm paying extra for something I'll never use.  It's just something that I've made a decision about. 

I just looked at the LionChief stuff, yeah I'm not interested in that.  Oh well, guess I'm just griping.  Time to scour the secondary market and maybe save some money for one star piece.

Yes, I think what I need to come to terms with is the idea that the "mid-level" is a lot higher than what I had thought.  Unless I start getting diesels, which I'm not interested in, I'm going to have to pay.  My other problem is trying to stick to one roadname, just not a lot of Lionel B&O locos jumping out at me.  I'm just starting to get back into this hobby, last time I was doing it I was a child and my father was doing the shopping.  I need to learn more about where to go to find products.

You can run MTH engines in conventional mode, that will include smoke, sound, freight/passenger sound effects, speed control, & remote coupler activation with the Legacy handheld if you use the Legacy PowerMaster or TPC-300 or -400.  You'd need one of those if you want to run your Williams engines conventionally anyway.  So again, I don't really see the argument of paying extra for something you wouldn't use, because they are still offering things by your own admission are in the ballpark of what you want to pay for.

I was a member of the SD3R, but I don't think they receieved my membership renewal so I have to get that fixed.

El Centro?  Man, talk about out in the middle of nowhere!   My job requires me to go out there once every couple of months or so, and it sure gets hot out there in the summertime.  Well, at least El Centro has the noted distinction of being Southern Pacific's sugarbeet hotbed.

Have you checked the MSRP's in the Williams by Bachmann catalogs lately?  The new Williams hopper car is 70 bucks and the old tooling N5C porthole that been cataloged for just about forever is 75 bucks, MSRP.

Discounters aside, the days of the $200.00 or less brand new O gauge locomotive are pretty much gone.

Heck, even the Athearn HO straight DC "Ready to Roll" GP35 is 120 bucks, the old trusty F7A is almost a bargain at 85 bucks.

Rusty

Don has mostly spoken for me too.  I was pretty stunned at those prices in the recent Lionel catalog. The steam engines look great, but it's a mortgage payment to buy it!  I've seen the prices start climbing at an all to inclined rate. Yeah...the price of things these days......the cost of this and that. 

        I wanted an ABA F unit(s) this coming October York (there I said it Peter...October York) but still that's a lot of cha ching.  Maybe Don really means that the prices ARE a bit absurd.  Just my 2 cents..

It's surprising that none of you consider the used market.  I routinely buy scale command steamers for less than $500, and that's stuff in excellent to like-new condition!  I buy new stuff, but I buy a lot more used stuff, it's cost effective.

Think new cars vs. a 1 year old car...

Think warranty versus non-warranty...

Being that as it may, you'll have to concede that the secondary market doesn't really address what the OP considers an issue regarding mid-range product variety & pricing.

Think "I can fix them".

I'll take a $900 locomotive for $350 anytime without a warranty.

Think "not everyone may have the skillsets". 

But then again, maybe that $350 is what the engine was really originally worth and not $900?

To me, Lion Chief Plus is the middle ground that used to be filled by Lionmaster.  There is still a lot of value in the sets.  They aren't junk.  Also there is plenty of NOS on eBay.  Think Docksiders, one of the best locos Lionel ever made.

I think this is a great thread. It was started earlier but stalled out. Has Lionel priced themselves out of the market?

I am not sure. The Big Boy orders will tell.

Many are on a fixed income and paying the 2k for a vision line engine is no small feat.

I think the definition of middle was the stall point ... I have not found the answer, now that the ZWL has all functions of a TPC and command anything goes...

Is the middle:

conventional scale engines?

Tmcc  or legacy scale small engines?

Legacy engines w/o smoke features?

Semi-scale PW engines with legacy?

I think the marketing numbers tell the story

I am not sure. Lionel has had its flops in these markets...

Conventional scale K4 and moguls just did not sell.

remember Trainsounds with conventional? no go here.

PW celebration series- really did not take off.

Would I buy these lesser locomotives? Probably not. I opt for the nicer scale engines but realize I just cannot buy them all, so I either wait and buy them used, or buy only one new engine a year or every other year.

I can agree that Lionel is missing out on the mid market.  I do not get how they expect people to jump from Lionchief plus items to Legacy when the price gap is fairly large,  Once I finish college in 2 years I will try to get back into the hobby but I will not have the money to drop on $450+ diesels and $1000 steam locomotives.  I guess that is why if I want to buy an item I will probably be looking at used items. The MTH Railking line does fill that gap pretty well though with offering relatively affordable command control locomotives.

The MTH RailKing Imperial steamers are about $450-$700 MSRP (2014 V1 Catalog) and a DCS system is $350 MSRP. Depending on the model, you could get a pretty good steamer and DCS system for quite a bit less than $1000 street price. Pretty close to your mid price range for both, and you would also be able to use all the features. 

DCS system is only a one time purchase and you can then purchase MTH mid priced steamers with no added expenses. The LionChief Plus has it's own remote also, and you can only operate it in conventional mode with the Legacy system. Just another way to look at things.

While the mid priced market may be uncertain, if not being filled by Lionelchief. VL stuff is supposed to be "big money". Thats how its marketed.

Having said that, I wish folks would go to Lionels website and peruse the prices of things over the last 12 years or so.

Scale steamers for well over $1000 MSRP is nothing new.In some instances certain recent legacy offerings have been cheaper than their TMCC counterparts.

The Legacy UP9000's, k4's and EM1's to name a few all had MSRPS $100-$200 LESS than their TMCC versions  from many years ago.

The MSRP's are shockers, but who's paying MSRP? In fact, the legacy berks and M1's with whistle steam can be had for less than the early legacy offerings of these locomotives 5 years ago,and no whistle steam.

This is an unrealistic expectation for the Lionel product line.

Lionel does not offer all the same railroad names every year.

There are some railroads that appear on steam or diesel only once every four years.

Andrew

While this seems to be a very real issue, there's not a ton of acknowledgement of it here on these forums, even as often as the topic comes up.  As a small business owner myself, I appreciate the importance of having multiple price points so I can meet the needs of a wider variety of buyers. I share the sentiment that there seems to be a potentially untapped market for locomotives in the $150-$250 range.

Let's suppose Bob pays retail at his LHS for the Scout starter set for Christmas ($200). His kids enjoy it and he adds a few pieces of rolling stock and track throughout the year. Now it's Christmas again, and Bob wants to upgrade to a more powerful locomotive, so he heads for his LHS.

Bob is remembering that a year ago he paid $200 for a locomotive/tender, a gondola, a hopper, a caboose, ten pieces of Fastrack and a transformer. His expectation is that he should be able to buy a fairly decent locomotive for somewhere between $150-$250. But upon arrival, Bob discovers there's nothing on the shelf in that price range--most everything starts at $300+, mostly $500+, and they include many features he can't use.  Bob is disappointed.

The modern conventional locomotives I own (including this CSX SD60 and this Chessie SD40-2) are at the $250 MSRP price point, and they're are beautiful and powerful runners--I sure would like to see more of them.  Bob would too!

You don't need to purchase an expensive MTH full DCS system to enjoy the many features of Proto-Sound 3.0.  Here is another option that may help the affordable MTH Railking offerings be a bit more practical for you:

This available control system is priced at $49.95 retail and is easily integrated into a model railroad layout.  This will control any Proto-Sound 3.0 and many later Proto-Sound 2.0 locomotives in command mode, meaning you can control most commonly used DCS features such as automatic speed control, most sound activation and remote controlled coupler activation all from this simple remote.  Most MTH retailers should have this system in stock.

The locomotive pictured below is from the MTH 2011 VOL. II catalog and currently available at a few retailers at or less than the $399.95 retail price.

After doing an availability check of recent Baltimore & Ohio locomotives from the steam/diesel transition period, I was surprised not to find much.  Most New York Ontario & Western Railroad fans like myself know exactly how you feel!

As a fellow hobbyist who agrees with your frustration of the lack of new $400-$600 basic Lionel [TMCC] controlled steam locomotives, I suggest you take a closer look at MTH Railking, Railking Scale and Railking Imperial offerings.  You won't go wrong.

VERY WELL SAID....Thank you!

I agree with the mid-range being really thin out there especially command engines. I took the plunge and picked up some of the early Lionchief sets this last year. The Lionchief is nice.....until you have several remotes that you are chasing around or trying to find a place to set them down for a bit. Not fun.

I would prefer to see more mid-priced Legacy units versus additional Lionchief items. My layout is limited to O48 curves at the widest.  I have MTH and Williams along with prewar tinplate that I can run with just the transformer or one remote, not several remotes at one time. Yes, I know I have 2 remotes already with the Legacy and DCS...so I do not need more.

I was just thinking the same thing about the next catalog, or even the one after that. Since the sets seem to be Lionel's best selling items it makes sense to update and introduce the new products there first.

Next it might just be time to fill the mid price range Legacy steamer market. Obviously they couldn't do all that at one time, something had to wait. It certainly seems to be a market void for them. They probably already know this though, and I'm sure they are aware of MTH's offerings in that category. Of course this is pure speculation on my part, but it does make sense (to me anyway).

I would like to echo what I said on another thread in this vein.  As Lionel did a couple

years back, I'd like to see conventional versions of their 'loaded' engines.  Whistle and

bell are fine for me with maybe remote couplers on switch engines.  I just don't need

all the electronic doo-dads.  For my needs, I could do without the TMCC, although it

is a phenomenal product.  Conventional-only would lower the msrp somewhat, compared

to the fully equipped version.  MHO.

     Hoppy

I agree with johnstrains on the LionChief and Plus engines.  But the listing mid-range diesels and locomotives is overwhelming.  I believe the Lionel catalogs for 2014 offer a well rounded assortment for just about anyone, including mid-range items.

Steve, Lady and Tex

I disagree, unless we're looking at different catalogs, or maybe we have a different idea of what mid range is.  In the 2014 Signature catalog, the only prices under $1000 were for modern diesel types, that's not well rounded, that's actually pretty narrow.

But there have been a lot of good responses, I thank everyone for weighing in.  Honestly the more I read the more I think I may have to let go of my nostalgia and consider MTH and DCS.  If that's where the products are that I like, why should I deny myself? 

Unfortunately for Lionel, their current marketing is probably pushing a lot of people that way.  I was speaking to an owner of a LHS in Virginia Beach a few months ago who said that he didn't have a single purchase out of the 2013 catalog, prices were just too high.  Now the 2014 is exactly the same, its incredible! 

Unless Lionel is positioning itself as the boutique brand catering to wealthier clientele, expecting MTH to soak up us riff-raff who can't drop thousands on an admittedly gorgeous steamer.  Its heartbreaking, but I'm just one person, I can't expect an entire industry to cater just to me.