Lionel Motor Types, is there a list?

Yes, I would like to see a list of their motors and the differences.  Something one of the magazines could have done long ago.

Most post war motors were one of two general types.  The worm drive motor, later called the Pullmor motor is a stand alone motor with a die cast housing on one end which houses the bearings. At the other end is a molded Bakelite brush holder, which may also hold a bearing. There were lots of variations in the design. The early versions had a spur gear on the armature shaft that drove the worm drive shaft.  The other common postwar motor was the parallel plate motor, used on many steam locomotives, which had a sheet steel or aluminum frame that held the armature and drive axle bearings.  The armature shaft and drive axles are parallel. The Pullmor motor is usually a worm drive and the parallel plate motor is a spur gear drive. Another motor used were the Scout motor, which is a unique design with a minimum of parts. Some of the later, less expensive, diesels used a Pullmor style motor built into the truck frame. The whistle motor was a small open frame motor unique to that application. There were several different motors used on some accessories. This includes the vibrator motors, a few OO style motors and permanent magnet DC motors. A few PUllmor motors used on accessories had built in gear units. In the early postwar years some accessories used prewar motors, including the 97, 164 and 313.  Bob Hannon's two volume book "O Gauge Refernece Manual"  lists and describes most post war motors in detail.  

The details of the motor types can be found in some of the full sized Greenberg price guides.

I still think a single, concise, detailed,  complete source of Lionel electric motor info would be informative and helpful. This would include pre-war and post war on up. I have taken enough engines apart to realize the differences in design and materials. Sometimes they changed the motor design in  the middle of a production run.  Lionel design, engineering and construction is a major interest of mine in the hobby.

I still think a single, concise, detailed,  complete source of Lionel electric motor info would be informative and helpful.

One possibility for postwar would be to go through the Lionel service manual and pull out all the information on motor assemblies.
Also, there is an overview of Lionel motors written by Lionel in the manual.

Bob Hannon's books have detailed information on armatures and fields only.

jim pastorius posted:

I still think a single, concise, detailed,  complete source of Lionel electric motor info would be informative and helpful.

One wonders if this exists in the form you seek. or at all.  I know that the same sort of question about the TMCC R2LC versions has been answered that changes were made during production and poorly, if at all, documented.  I suspect a similar thing happened with the motors over the years.

As I have stated before, the engineering of Lionel's products is an interesting and fascinating part of the hobby for me. I really think their expertise is underestimated and not appreciated. Just like auto manufacturing, it is one thing to design a one-off item but something else to design something made in quantity with minimal training in assembly.  There are three classes  of motors-the  horizontal  in-line design, all the various vertical ones and the Pulmor where the shaft is horizontal but across the width of the motor. I read in one motor they put one or two extra laminations in the field coil in the O gauge motor for more power.  ??? True ? I guess but would like to know.

jim pastorius posted:

As I have stated before, the engineering of Lionel's products is an interesting and fascinating part of the hobby for me. I really think their expertise is underestimated and not appreciated. Just like auto manufacturing, it is one thing to design a one-off item but something else to design something made in quantity with minimal training in assembly.  There are three classes  of motors-the  horizontal  in-line design, all the various vertical ones and the Pulmor where the shaft is horizontal but across the width of the motor. I read in one motor they put one or two extra laminations in the field coil in the O gauge motor for more power.  ??? True ? I guess but would like to know.

In the 1946 model  of the 726 Berkshire they had what you are talking about except there were about 8 laminations added and more wire added to the field coil it was called high stack motor or the gold seal motor but i may be mistaken. I have seen them . Other models i not sure about like the 1946 model 671/2020 which i also have also a dual worm drive set up similar to the 726 but a slightly different motor with a larger end gear and different machining on bottom of motor to seat on the 2 pins.

 Mine have the regular motors in them not the high stack versions,regardless they are great runners and pull very well.

There was a good detail write up on them in the forum a week or 2 back.

I have a 726 RR which is in the shop right now, have a 736, two 2020s, a 671, 681 7 682-all good runners.  Plus 6  2065s !!  And others. You see in descriptions of locos the motors they used. I missed the write up on the forum.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

jim pastorius posted:

I still think a single, concise, detailed,  complete source of Lionel electric motor info would be informative and helpful.

One wonders if this exists in the form you seek. or at all.  I know that the same sort of question about the TMCC R2LC versions has been answered that changes were made during production and poorly, if at all, documented.  I suspect a similar thing happened with the motors over the years.

You make an excellent point about the existence of this info in one nice, neat, consolidated document - certainly doesn't sound like it does. So it begs the question, where did Tandem Associates get their info? As I mentioned, they seem to make reference to different motor types on many of the engines they list (Type IVA, IVB, IIE, etc.),but I can't find any place on their site that talks about what those letters mean.

. So it begs the question, where did Tandem Associates get their info? As I mentioned, they seem to make reference to different motor types on many of the engines they list (Type IVA, IVB, IIE, etc.),but I can't find any place on their site that talks about what those letters mean.

As I wrote earlier, the descriptions (motor types) are in some of the full sized Greenberg price guides.
That is where they are created.
Same goes for most of the variation labeling.

Too bad all the variations of the electronics aren't in the Greenberg price guides.

I wrote to Tandem-Associates.com and asked the following:

"On your website, in the Lionel postwar section, you identify many different “motor types”, e.g. IVA, IVB, IIE, etc. Where does this info come from, what does it mean, and/or where is it located on your site? "

I just heard back from Tandem-Associates.com, here's what they had to say:

We are aware of this problem. The latest Greenberg guides do not even list these various types of motors. You have to go back to the 1994 edition: https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...81bd949e6eac7597fdc5 to find these types even listed. But they don't tell you the difference between the types. We've been attempting to find out this information for years. If you know anyone who has this information could you please ask them to get in touch with us.

 Charles Wilber, Tandem Associates LLC

So if anybody can lend a hand on explaining the various types, please contact Charles.

In the meantime, not wanting any moss to be gathered on this old stone, I found Mr. Greenberg on Facebook and sent him an instant message, letting him know that we have a raging debate here on the OGR On-Line Forum, and could he kindly shed some light on this discussion. I shall await his response, and if received, I will pass it on.

George

Cool !!  Good job. Let's hope something develops.

Seen a lot of different books but they seem to basically cover the same .

For postwar this is a nice one - does it cover all motors beats me but there is a lot in there with detailed pictures.

What i find to cover a lot are below for post and prewar separately.

In Greenberg's Repair and Operating Manual For Lionel Trains 1945-1969

It shows nice pictures with part #s, for example a 1950- 2035 motor was different than the 1951 as the eccentric crank as half moon shape for the center blind wheel were as the 1951 motor was of the common 2 pin type for the blind center wheel that was changed for that year and with there part #s.

For prewar below is a nice one

In Greenberg's Hard Cover- Guide To Lionel Trains Volume 2 showing a Red 251E on front cover.

Nice pictures and In the different prewar loco's #s made in order it mentions motor type but not for all the engines same with length of engines along with variations.

Also with pictures different couplers and trucks and motors and information starting in ChapterVI

Motors 1/2/3/4 /V/ Vl/Vll/VIII with a paragraph of information on each one with dates etc and some pictures.

My Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Trains, 1945-1969, 1990 edition, has a detailed list of the motor types on page 10. I had no idea this information was so hard to come by.

In a nutshell, Type 1 is the self-contained vertical motor, as used, for example, in the early NW-2s and late F3s. Types 2-4 are variations on the integral motor and truck, used in the 44-tonners and the 200-series FAs, among others. Type 2 had a bottom plate on the truck which held a ball bearing to support the lower end of the armature. Type 3 eliminated the bottom plate, with the armature instead being supported just below the windings. Type 4 was the ultra-cheap; it was similar to Type 3, but with only one powered axle. Types 3 and 4 also did not have any axle bearings. All the variations of types 2 and 3 are described there as well.

Incidentally, Lionel-MPC used the Type 1 motor for its reissues of the larger diesels, and a modified version of the Type 2 for the Geeps, FAs and NW-2s.

Judging from the way the book is written, I would say that Mr. Greenberg &Co, did not have any sort of inside knowledge about these things. I believe they came up with the categories themselves based on their own careful observation of the trains they were collecting.

There are other similar charts in this edition, like the different SP caboose dies, and the 6464 boxcar body types.

Just looked at a couple of Greenberg guides.
The first place I saw motor descriptions was in:

Greenberg's Price Guide to Lionel Trains Postwar O and O-27 trains 1945-1982.

Motor types are described at the beginning of Chapter 1: Diesel and Electric Engines and Motorized Units.

This may be an older table, newer editions might have better information.

Earlier I was looking at another Greenberg book:

Greenberg’s Guide to Lionel Trains 1945-1969 Vol. 7 Selected Variations

It had a chart across the bottom of two pages describing diesel motors by their Lionel part numbers. Interesting information, but Lionel fans general use the "type" designations that were listed in the other guides.

Thanks CW. Time to go check the library, pretty sure I saw Greenberg's price guides the last time I looked.

My well worn Greenberg, dated 1987, has nothing on motors.  Has an article or two about wheels etc and a big one about every aspect of the 6464 box cars. Next weekend we have the Greenberg show so I will look around.

My well worn Greenberg, dated 1987, has nothing on motors.

Information appears, disappears, and might reappear in different editions of the Greenberg guides. Some information got shuffled into separate volumes.