Lionel MPC F3's?

I thought MPC had the same detail variations as Lionel.  For example some MPC F3s had the level of detail of the later Lionel Corp F3s like the 2383 - no porthololes, add-on ladders, roof screens or grab irons -- whereas other MPC F3s had some of those features similar to Lionel Corp's 2343 or 2353 (although I am not sure if an MPC F3 ever roof screens instead of louvers).  

MPC F3 shells do not have louvers on their nose (more or less under the number boards). There are probably other differences as well.

Early MPC used a lot of PW dies so their early F3s were made from them. As the pics above show over time MPC added more features and working horns.

It appears that the early MPC F3's used the same dies that Lionel used back in 1955...

Marty

My MPC CP A-A set that I bought new back in the Seventies had filled-in portholes.  I know because the first thing I did after buying them was to open up the holes and put PW porthole lenses in them.

Still have them, by the way.

Here is a picture of the front of a Postwar 2245 Texas Special. It clearly shows the vents under each number board. 
MPC F3 diesels do not have these vents.
All Postwar F3 diesels do have them.

Picture

I had the MPC first release of the Santa Fe F3 #8652 and it had closed portholes but it was a great runner and at the time, owning a brand new Santa Fe F3 ABA set was to me a miracle. 

Like David mentioned above, MPC got me back into Lionel trains again and carried the hobby through to where it is today.  Not enough good can be said about this period in Lionel train history.

Steve, Lady and Tex

In 1979 Lionel MPC released upgraded versions of the F-3AAs in Pennsylvania livery  with the Brunswick green 8952, powered, and 8953 dummy. The port holes, front grab irons and dual motors from the early 1950s PW days returned.

The upper part of the bodies still had louvers rather than screens and there was no Magne-Traction, but the new units were so much nicer than the older MPC units that I bought both the green and later tuscan versions. Lionel never did PRR F-3s in the PW era, which is one of the reasons I still own them.

Ed Boyle

Roger, that!!

I am pretty sure the current PW F3 tooling is still original Lionel tooling from the PW era.  They just refine and clean stuff up over time.  Though I could be wrong...but at least they are new tools cast off the original master....but Im sure Lionel cast new working tools all the time in the 50's as well of a master.

The Lionel Corporation removed the port-holes in the PW era. They also removed the nose-grabs, two piece cab ladders, and the screened vents.  These were all gone by the time General Mills got a hold of the dies.

Once General Mills began production, the first F-3's were essentially copies of the late Lionel Corp F-3's, lacking port holes, screened vents, nose grabs, two-piece cab ladders, plus the elimination of the nose vents.

Over time MPC removed the side vents as needed to allow for fancier decoration, along with the addition of the much-loathed ridges along the bottom edge of the die which helped in the printing og the stripes on the Santa Fe F-3.

By the late 70's the trend began a slow reversal, first bringing back the ports and nose grabs, then the two-piece ladders, then the screened vents, then the nose vents, then the side vents, and finally the elimination of the bottom ridges.

Jon

Slightly off-topic, but what was modern Lionel's first true Scale F3 model?

MPC changed the body style on each F3 it made up until the late 70s

The 1st one, made in 73 is pretty much like a late postwar 2383 only w/ no vents on the lower part of the nose. 

The Milw & D&RGW units are missing a set of vents on the side - only 3 while the B&O & postwar units had 4, 

The changes went on unit there was just 1 vent, towards the rear of the body & ribs were put in on the lower part of the body ( similar as the Alcos). The B units did not have the ribs, but at some point lost the 2 vents  on the side of the body & went to one.   Lionel restored pretty much all of the original detail w/ the PWC F3 series although the Texas Special reissue B Unit only has one side vent.  The only thing that has not been part back, IIRC, is the door detail on the nose, which was taken off when postwar Lionel made the 2242 New Haven F3s in 58

Sam, I believe the first Lionel Scale F3 was released a few years ago.  But that's enough on scale, this is a great MPC thread.

Steve, Lady and Tex

As a recap (of sorts), MPC's F-3's were similar to the late PW F-3's in that most of the original detailing found on the early PW F-3's was gone by the mid 1950's.

MPC production went the opposite of the PW era in that as time went on MPC restored more of the detailing, as opposed to the PW era, as fine detailing was gone as time went on.

The first MPC F-3's have the distinction of being manufactured at the Hillside factory, the first F-3 made in Mt. Clemmens was the Rio Grande.

Ken

Correct; it could be seen as a pendulum effect where the trend completed its swing roughly mid-way in the MPC era and was swinging back towards the end.

Were the first MPC F3's made using the existing parts bin from Hillside?  had any production occurred at Hillside since 1967ish?

Not 100% certain on the first question, but it seems likely.  In answer to your second question, Lionel MPC did indeed maintain limited operations at the Hillside factory (and as a consequence occupied less square footage since the bulk of production moved to Mt. Clemens) up until 1974 when they closed the remainder of their toy train production there.  Lenny Dean continued his tenure with Lionel at Hillside as well if I recall correctly.

Maybe. The tooling was changed for the B&O F3 eliminating the nose louvers.

Check out this book for a detailed history of Lionel's factories:

The Lionel Trains Fun Factory: The History of a Manufacturing Icon and The Place Where Childhood Dreams Were Made

No. The Baltimore & Ohio, Canadian Pacific, Rio Grande and Amtrak F-3's were all made in Hillside. The first Michigan-made F-3's were the Preamble, Milwaukee Road and Southern.

They definitely weren't "parts bin" creations. Hillside train production continued through December 1974. All remaining tooling and work-in-process parts was transferred to Michigan by May 1975. Notable things to come out of Hillside in the early 1970's were the F-3's, 8206 steam locomotive and many accessories.

Lenny and the Service Department were based out of Hillside until the plant closing at the end of 1974. In 1975, the "Service Center East" opened in Little Falls, NJ, which is where Lenny operated from until the closure and consolidation to Michigan in May 1979.

Bob does a great job of covering the various US factories over the years. I'd also recommend the TM Volume 4 1970-1980 book for interviews with key employees of the period. While the info isn't 100% accurate, it does a good job of telling the story of the late New Jersey and early Michigan years.

Hope this helps-

Todd

As mentioned above, most of the nicer F-3 detail was already removed by the time MPC came onto the scene. They did remove the nose vents and made each side vent "removable" by changing out a set of slugs/inserts in the tool. Don't forget that you also have labor costs in addition to parts costs, and that combined is likely why most F-3 detail was removed in 1955 or so.

It's still the original 1948 tool, although heavy modifications were made to it in 1955 -- enough to warrant changing the root of the part number from 2333 to 2367. I need to learn a bit more about how molds were made in the 1950's to say for certain, but the majority of the molds were likely not constructed with the use of a "master." Dimensional drawings exist for each and every part Lionel made, and skilled mold-makers transferred each detail from the drawing into the metal. The only likely use of a "master" would be for the complex curves of the nose. My guess is that they used a 2x or 4x model of the nose and then had everything pantographed into the steel. 

I think it goes like this:

1979: The return of the portholes and nose grabs.

1991: The return of the two-piece horns (I think this is what you meant!), side vents and screened roof vents.

1998: The return of the nose vents.

1999: The elimination of the bottom ridges.

A funny thing about that missing side vent on the B-unit. It always bugged me, so one day I asked one of the tool room guys about it. He went right to a drawer on this workbench and handed me two small metal slugs..."You mean these?" Needless to say, all B-units from early 2001 forward have all the vents restored.

I have the TM book and it states that MPC never started production in Hillside...only keeping the service department open.  The B&O F3s say Mt Clemens on the casting...and Grosebeck HWY on the box.  

But this is all very interesting.  Can someone provide a list of all MPC items made in Hillside...a new collecting hunt will begin!

Todd:

I wish you would write a book.

As for the F-3 production in New Jersey, this from the McComas-Tuohy on the F-3's, this is located on page 57.  Further on page 56 it states that Lenny Dean (picture included) was the force behind bringing back the F-3's. 

"Until the Rio Grande (74 and 75), all the F-3's had been made in New Jersey. The Rio Grande was the first F-3 to be made entirely in Mt. Clemmens, although the shells had always been molded there"

This would indicate that the B & O, Canadian Pacific, and Amtrak were made in Hillside.

Ken

Another important quote from that book on page 7.

(Harry) Blum would stay in New Jersey, where it was decided that a few items would be made.  We Kept a little production in New Jersey because we wanted to keep in touch with the talent there, those who would not move, or commuter (to Michigan).

Ken

I think it goes like this:

1979: The return of the portholes and nose grabs.

1991: The return of the two-piece horns (I think this is what you meant!), side vents and screened roof vents.

1998: The return of the nose vents.

1999: The elimination of the bottom ridges.<<<

Let's not forget that PW sized coupler opening and coupler shields that reappeared sometime in the mid 90's.

Joe 

I have a Preamble and I can't imagine it pulling a dummy A and B with the single motor and no magnatraction.

It will if you only add the caboose.

I had many of the MPC F3s and would find parts to make another power unit in place of the dummy. They finally came out with dual motor engines and that took care the power problem.

Lionel did not offer any dummy units for the Preamble. There were custom made "B" units on the secondary market, and anybody could have put a shell on a dummy frame.

During the Postwar period, Lionel made single motor F3's with dummy "B" units - the Santa Fe and the Texas Special. The ones that passed through my hands ran OK.

The Postwar engines have magnetraction. I am fairly certain the Preamble has tire traction.

All of the traction-tire F3s are good pullers compared to equivalent MagneTraction models. I'm running the MPC single motor B&O A-B-A now with a long mixed consist.

Mike W - In the July 1970 TCA Train Collectors Quarterly, there is an article entitled

"Lionel - Alive and Well in Mt Clemens, Mi" mostly about the Mi operations but it does mention accessories, O-27 track and switches and also O gauge track are planned to be made at the Hillside facility.  Interesting article about the early days of Lionel-MPC.

TCA members can download any Quarterly thru the TCA website.

Thank you for that.  I did not realize the TCA site had that feature...but I haven't looked on there in a while either.

When the first MPC F-3s came out everyone was so excited to get a new f-3 and cheap.

There were tons of old/new parts available at that time. Many of us added port holes and other detail. There were no horns in the first of these diesels. The big letdown was all of those F units only had one motor. They worn't the best of pullers but thank goodness for fast angle wheels. Good luck trying to pull an older Lionel set of passenger cars. Don 

So the 1974 Rio Grande Service Station Set F3's are made in Hillside?

A Lionel 8372  New York Central F3 that I purchased new for $200, runs on my layout regularly. Its the one with magnetraction, portholes, pullmors, old style eunit and some detailing but it had no horn sounds. I just added a Williams TrueBlast board to remedy this.  I don't know exactly what year it was produced but it is a rock solid runner as it pulls a string of 11 freight cars up a 5-7 degree hill with no problems. During the MPC/Fundimensions era Lionel made some good F3 engines.

That would have been from 1983, originally as part of the 20th Century Limited set.

Do any pics exist of 1) Lionel Hagerstown in the late 60's 2) Lionel Hillside late 60's 3) and Lionel corporate late 60's.  I always like seeing what places looked like at the end. Which pieces were made in Japan and do any exist?

The early MPC rolling stock had AAR trucks...were these from the left over parts bin at Hillside?  And the last 6464 Boxcars from Lionel Corp in 1969 had Bar-End trucks...were these also from the parts bin? And where were these 6464 cars assembled?

Well, for starters, you can't judge an entire era of Lionel production based on a single engine decades old that you bought from another owner. You have no idea what the real history of that engine is, although to you it appears new. Even if it were new, there is no logic in concluding that an imperfection in one engine warrants a generalization about thousands of engines made during a production period that lasted for years.

It's possible that you just got an engine with a very rare defect, or, more likely, that engine you got has a suspicious history, especially considering that not one but the armatures of both motors are allegedly bent.

Personally, I had a set of LTI Santa Fe Warbonnet engines years ago, no. 11711 from 1991, and it ran very well and for a long time. 

I was looking over this thread, with particular interest in  Todd's (PaperTRW) comments.
What a fountain of knowledge!

I think he could write a book.

I know that I would purchase a copy.

Todd was there, he knows. One of his favorite projects was the remake of the Wabash F3 set.

He used his own PW set as a guide for the new one. He told me they found the original die for the caboose.

Jim

Which caboose?

The brown SP type caboose that's in the Wabash freight set.

Haven't those dies been in continuous use since 1948, with many revisions & retooling?

In that case, you should talk to Joe or someone else at Grzyboski's and work something out with them about the engine.

I know in the past, at least sometimes, when they bought an item from someone for resale, they tested it first. 

Very true.......... but in this case, this ABA set has not been placed on the track as there is no wear marks on the wheels or roller pick ups. I already purchase the needed parts to repair or replace the defective parts.  Last weekend I installed the metal gears to replace the plastic gears.  This set is no longer original so no I will just fix it and keep it.  Lionel uses plastic gears since I think 1973 or 74 on the early MPC F-3's to this day. They just changed the color of the gears from white to black, WHY ? The metal gears was used on the last F-3 #2383 of the postwar period.  I had the 2383 set back in 1968.

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

Grzyboski's would have purchased that engine from someone else, so who knows what its history is? Engines can be briefly test-run on straight track and still appear to be unrun. Also, testing is often done using electrical clip-ons, and the engine isn't placed on track at all. So it is virtually impossible to say what the history is.

Regardless, I certainly would have contacted Grzyboski's about it at the time. They might have been able to provide some information about the engine, as well.

I have those same engines. I swapped the shells with some PWC F-3 chassis, because I run a command layout, so they now have TMCC, R/S, electrocouplers, directional lighting, cab interiors with crew, etc. I thought about the Legacy version when it came out, but didn't care for the black roof.

As I mentioned early in this thread, TM's 1970-1980 Guide is a must for covering the early MPC history. Not everything contained in there is correct, but it's the closest we'll likely get to documenting the time period, from many of the key people who lived it. Unfortunately, a large portion of the early players that transitioned the company to Michigan are no longer with us.

Bob Osterhoff's "Inside the Lionel Trains Fun Factory" is a must-read for any student of Lionel's manufacturing history. It predominantly focuses on the prewar and postwar time periods, but there is some post-1969 coverage.

There are also literally hundreds of other interesting tidbits that can be found by scouring other books, early train club publications, toy trade periodicals, model-kit magazines (MPC made quite the splash when they first hit the model kit market), General Mills corporate reports, and the like. I'm almost embarrassed by how large my library has become, but I can honestly say that I learn something new every time I go digging. 

Thanks, CW. I'm not sure a book will ever be in the cards from me, even though I've been fortunate to accumulate a lot of interesting material -- and stories -- from those years. Maybe someday the planets will align: there will be a demand for such a book in the marketplace, and I'll have the time to devote to it.

Great thread. Learning a ton.

Paper TRW, thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Hey, King James! Thanks for the shout-out, and I hope all is well. I'm sure we'll cross paths in the coming months. That 6-31711 1563W PWC Wabash F-3 set was one of my favorites, and I was quite proud with how it turned-out. I actually borrowed an original set from a friend to use as guidance, and it represented a turning-point in how the PWC items were developed in the early 2000's. There are lots of stories associated with that one, and yes, we uncovered the only remaining unmodified, original caboose tool during the summer of 2002 which I promptly scheduled for use in the Wabash Set. I think Ed Boyle did a Collector's Gallery on the reissue when it hit the marketplace, and I recall filling him on some of the details.   

Originally Posted by Jim 1939:

Originally Posted by ADCX Rob:

Yes and no. The SP-caboose story still hasn't been fully documented, but here's the short version (with a warning that I'm doing this from memory).

There are THREE individual SP-caboose tools, which I believe were created in 1947, 1949 and 1952, respectively. This was likely done for capacity reasons, but it's possible there's more to it that we haven't discovered yet. To make matters even more complicated, these tools contained multiple cavities, yielding even more variations of the 2357 diework. (I've seen some postwar guides attempt to put caboose variations in chronological order, but that's next to impossible as a caboose body could come from any one of these tools and cavities.)

In 1970, MPC heavily reworked two of the three tools, totalling four cavities. These changes include removing the end platforms from the molds, and allowing the caboose bodies to accept a new plastic frame and end rails. This modified caboose proved to be the workhorse of the 1970's, 1980's and early 1990's before a brand-new pseudo-SP, two-window style was released in 1994, largely due to the poor condition of the original tools. The vintage SP tooling was used again in the 1997-1998 time period, but because it had deteriorated so badly, one tool was shipped to China for refurbishment and production. (Lionel's total production shift offshore wouldn't occur for another 3-4 years.) I think I've said this before, but the folks at SandaKan did a wonderful job coaxing life out of old tooling.

In the early 2000's, there were two large "pushes" to ship tooling to China as part of the relocation efforts. The operations group handled most of what was immediately needed in the near term, and then I was given a two inch-thick list of Lionel's tooling to figure-out what else to send offshore, as part of the second wave of things that could be needed in the coming years. I literally took several days, going over the list line-by-line. I discovered MANY interesting things, but one of which was a caboose tool -- 002357T003A, I believe -- which didn't have any "parents" listed. This meant that it had never been assigned to any projects in Lionel's MRP II system (Manufacturing Resource Planning) that dated back to 1974 or so. I was intrigued, so I asked a project manager to have a bunch of tooling pulled for me in the summer of 2002, one of which was the 2357. After using a crane to remove the top half of the mold, I saw an unmodified 2357 cavity staring back at me. Bingo! Particularly interesting was the fact it was the cavity that failed back in the late 1940's, and required an extra "board" be added to the roofwalk before a more permanent repair could be made. It was clear where the top cavity of the tool had been inserted to perform the repair.

From there, it was easy to recreate the "deluxe" version of the 2357 caboose. We found the original stamped-metal frame tool as well as the prewar tool that produced the die-cast metal stack. The only thing we couldn't locate were the stamping tools to create the underframe's toolbox, but in the scheme of things, they were reasonably inexpensive to reproduce. I know that the Wabash F-3 set originally came with a 6357 without the toolbox underneath, but there was no way I was going to miss a prime opportunity to reintroduce the deluxe SP-caboose, which is why that set's 6357 has the toolbox.

Sorry if I've bored anyone to death, but that's the story of the rebirth of the original 2357 SP-caboose.

Regards,

Todd

All very interesting.  I do have these pieces with AAR Trucks.  The trucks look rough as the tooling was wearing out by this time.  I guess they did cast the trucks after 1970.  Also some late 60's pieces. Notice the odd cast wheels on the tankcar.

After what Lionel had done to their trains in the 60s I was happy to see any new signs of life. MPC started small and it took a long time to grow but I give them credit for saving Lionel Lines. First F3s started with single motors but over time they got better.

Todd there is no doubt we will be seeing each other soon, With a tear in my eye I can see that fall is upon us. Train shows galore, we are lucky to live where the hobby is very active.

Jim

I have a number of those early MPC cars with the AAR trucks as well.  I suspect that the tooling may not have been worn out per se, (the tooling was less than a decade old and molds used for plastics tend to last longer than those used for die-cast) but perhaps when Lionel modified it for the new needlepoint axles surfaces in the tooling got roughed up somewhat in the process, or perhaps it was an early production problem with the delrin plastic combined with the injection molding process that resulted in the trucks looking a bit rough and the oxidization on the trucks; usually the residue comes off with a shot of Pledge and a rag. 

Needless to say, I really wish they fixed that early problem with the plastic trucks and kept using those carryover postwar AAR trucks or used a new truck design similar to the ASF ride-control type type trucks LTI came out with after 1989 instead of those very obscure Symington-Wayne trucks.

The removal of detail parts like the portholes and front nose grab irons pre-dated MPC.  Lionel started this practice on the F3s (and other items) in the mid-1950s as toy train sales were starting to decline and they were trying to make their products cheaper to manufacture.

The F3s that were previously noted should have come equipped with horns as MPC still included those.  During the postwar period Lionel originally used a two-piece horn assembly, but during the aforementioned cost-cutting measures in the mid- late-50s they started using the same one-piece horns that were originally used on the postwar Alcos and Geeps and this along with the other detail-removals simply carried over to the MPC era, exception that MPC took the additional step of removing the molded-in front nose grills.

One can easily get those horns, either the one-piece or two-piece, from a reputable parts dealer such as Henning's Trains, "O'nly 3 Rail (Chuck Sartor), Olsen's Toy Train Parts, or Brasseur Electric Trains.

Your imagination, probably, or else you're looking at different types of Pullmors. There were two major kinds of Pullmor motors, commonly referred to as Type I and Type II, in use from the Postwar period through the MPC era into the 1990s. Even within those, there are some variations. There were other types of Pullmors in use in some engines during the very early Postwar period as well, before 1954, and some which were only found in certain engines made in the late 1940s.

The Type I is a separate motor and truck assembly, and the motor consists of a single - or double - wound field, depending on the E-unit type, surrounding an armature with a worm gear. The worm gear fits down into the top of the power truck, where it drives either a gear on the main drive axle, or internal spur gearing in the truck which transmits power to more then one geared axle. The motor is mounted to the trick via a single mounting screw and pivots in a keyhole-shaped opening in the frame. This drive system is a descendant of the system Lionel developed in 1954, and was used in MPC and later times in Lionel's "premium" diesels and electrics, including the F-3s, FMs, EP-5s, and GG-1s. Postwar Lionel used this motor on its Geeps as well, but MPC used the less expensive Type II for the majority, though not all, of its Geeps.

The Type II Pullmor motor is known as the integral truck and motor assembly (intended to differentiate it from the Type I). This was the most common motor in the Lionel product line in the MPC era, other than their "premium" engines. The Type II was originally developed during Lionel's downsizing period in 1955 in response to cost-cutting demands. In this system the motor field, drive gears and axle mounting frame (i.e., the main body of the truck) are all one piece. The spur gears are mounted on one side of this piece, driving geared wheels. This drive system rides in a large hole in the frame, suspended from spring-loaded bushings traveling in curved slots fore and aft of the large hole.

This information is from Greenberg's Guide, and refers to diesel engines. Pullmor engines used in Lionel's steam engines is a completely different subject. Many of the motors used by MPC in their steamers were pretty much the same as were used by Postwar Lionel.

It should be clear by now, based on this, and John Korling's comments about F-3s, that there were many crossovers between Postwar and MPC era Lionel. There was no big gate that dropped and all of a sudden everything changed with MPC. Among other things, many of the "cost-cutting" measures many folks associate with MPC were actually initiated by Lionel in the Postwar period.

I am curious as to the distinctive feature of late Bar-End trucks Todd was referring too.  And why did Lionel use passenger trucks on the 1982 Cop and Hobo and not the bar end trucks as used on Milk Cars.

They also used those same Timken passenger car trucks instead of the bar end trucks on the re-release of the Erie animated gondola car between 1980-1984, as well as the die-cast machinery car with transformer load back in 1980 and the same car (with girders) in 1981.

Ahh forgot about the others.  Sorry I meant Erie Gondola in my post.  I like the trucks on the car though...oddly.

I find it odd the Timken 6464 car did not have the Timken freight trucks. As for the Cop & Hobo, I never noticed the different trucks, thanks for pointing that out. I don't recall too many different powered or roller equipped trucks in those years. The 9308 Aquarium car shares trucks that era's lighted caboose. Shortly after, 82-83, it looks like the lighted caboose started to get the passenger trucks like the Cop & Hobo you mentioned. PaperTRW, the info you give is not boring in the least. I had the pleasure of speaking with Lionel's Chuck Horan ten or so years ago at Milwaukee's Trainfest. I was very interested to find out about the relocation from Mexico to Michigan and the 1983 Hudson. I, at that time, had just purchased a Odyssey System demonstrator. He was able to tell me a little about how those came to be.

It was long before that. The passenger trucks were used on the premium SSS Bay Window caboose starting in 1976 with the NP versions. This was to match the die-cast trucks of the rest of the rolling stock, which were the sprung "Standard-O" type, for which a roller assembly had not been developed yet for interior illumination. Several more followed over the years.

The 9307 Erie animated / cop-hobo gondola had the passenger trucks starting in 1979.

Wow, I totally missed that one. I see my Dad's 1978 Milwaukee Limited also has the die-cast passenger trucks on the caboose. I was looking at my SF FARR caboose from 1979 and some other FARR bay windows from the era, noticed the change in early 80s.

The 1983/84 Hudson was one of the first pieces made in Mt. Clemens upon return.  I am not sure about the Turbine from that year but I know the new SD's were made in Mexico.  I have the Aquarium car and it along with the Erie Gondola are made in USA.

According to what I have read, the late Lenny Dean was the driving force behind MPC reintroducing the F3 series. Lenny was one of the last NJ Lionel employees to have an office in NJ and he served as a consultant and marketing guy for General Mills. It was  Lenny who told the Model Products div that Lionel trains were now being purchased by collectors and were no longer children's toys. The re-introduction and evolution of the MPC F3's products can probably be credited to his doing.

I have read statements that the 8404 turbine was made in Mexico, and statements that is was made in the USA. Mine has all its packaging and paperwork. I believe those materials say it is made in the USA.

Regarding early MPC with Timken trucks:

As has already been posted, the trucks were modified to accept the needlepoint axles.
I'd have to look at one to be certain, I think they may have also been modified to use a plastic coupler locking arm.

Several early MPC cars are known to have come with postwar plastic trucks. I think the early 9150 Gulf tanker is one example.

I look for boxed MPC cars with Timken trucks. They are difficult enough to find to make looking for them interesting.

Another point regarding MPC's modification of the postwar AAR truck tooling to use the new needlepoint axle design, is that they also filled in the cavities more in the two simulated hollowed out ares of the truck sides.  Why they did this I don't know; I'm assuming that they felt with the delrin plastic that the postwar truck design needed more structural reinforcement.  When they came out with the Simington-Wayne trucks, they did have those cavities completely hollowed out so that you can see through them (like you can on real freight trucks) but these cavities were much smaller than those on the AAR (and other far more common type of roller bearing trucks).

So apart from the fast-angle wheels, new plastic uncoupling tab & locking arm, and the aforementioned more rough-looking surface, this is another key spotting feature to differentiate between the postwar and MPC AAR trucks.  

I am wondering what Todd meant about this... "Lastly, the late bar-end truck (from the mid-1960's through 1972) has a distinct identifying characteristic that I don't believe has been documented in the hobby guides. And while all the MPC-era cars that should have the die-cast trucks have that characteristic, the other supposedly-special cars with die-cast trucks do not, indicating that their trucks or chassis were swapped out sometime over the years."

Your Burlington F-3 set dates from 1980, which in my opinion, is one of the best years of MPC production.

The body detail question was covered earlier in this thread, but here's the info again:

1979: The return of the portholes and nose grabs.

1991: The return of the two-piece horns (I think this is what you meant!), side vents and screened roof vents.

1998: The return of the nose vents.

1999: The elimination of the bottom ridges.

Your set doesn't have the nose grabs because of the nose decal. The electronic horn was first issued in 1981, as was added to F-3 B-units. (They even made a kit to do this.) 

The Pullmor motors used in your set are essentially the same ones used in postwar production, starting in 1955.

I hope this helps - enjoy your set!

The AAR truck tooling was actually in use about 13 years (starting in 1957) before the MPC guys came in, so it's not completely out of the question that it could have been worn out. But I kind of agree with John, there might be more to it than that as the AAR trucks on 1969 production don't seem to be anywhere near as bad as the ones found in the early 1970's. While I doubt that it could have been screwed-up while making the modifications in the early 1970's (the outside surface of the sideframe is on a completely different tooling surface that likely wasn't touched to make the mods), but the potential use of a different plastic has some merit. Different plastics have different properties -- shrink rates being among them -- and that could also result in some of the truck's rough appearance from this time period. If I had to bet, it's probably a combination of all of the above.

As for the choice of the oddball Symington Wayne XL-70 trucks, the thoughts on selecting that particular design might be lost to time. I even tracked down the original Lionel designer of the truck, but he couldn't recall anything other than he used the material that someone gave him.

I think the poster was referring to operating horns, but between our two posts, I think we covered the bases!

The exact "whys" of a lot of decisions over the years are simply not known. But having been in a similar position myself, you don't have a lot of time to ponder the question, but you make the best decision with what you know, and then move on without doing a lot of looking back.

Not to be picky, but just to correct some dates: the 9308 Aquarium Car was first produced in 1981 (it used regular plastic trucks), and the 9307 Erie Animated Gondola was first made in 1980.

Besides the bay window caboose, don't forget the other "first use" of the die-cast passenger car truck in the 1970's: on the TCA Bicentennial Passenger Cars, also from 1976.

Bill, thanks for your comments! I've known Chuck since the mid-1990's -- he's a good guy, and lived through the entire MPC era as he started with MPC in the late 1960's before they acquired the train production. I was the product manager on those 18288 Odyssey Demonstrators, and remember that project well. If I recall correctly, there were eight different versions made.

And also that year, 9290 UP Operating Barrel Car.

I'm going to do some checking on this one. I think the 8404 Turbine (perhaps my all-time favorite MPC locomotive) is one of those pieces that they planned to make in Mexico, and had the vast majority of parts produced there with that in mind. But ultimately, final assembly and pack-out were done here in the states.  Don't quote me on that just yet. I'm fairly certain the boxes say Made in Mexico.

Yes, the coupler armature -- "plastic locking arm" -- was one of the things that MPC modified.

And you're absolutely correct about 9150 Gulf Tank Cars coming with leftover postwar AAR trucks. I forgot about this one. These were the earliest versions produced, and are usually the scarce variations that have been painted white over leftover postwar orange tank car bodies.

So besides the 9160 Illinois Central Porthole Caboose and the 9150 Gulf Tank Car, what other cars used the leftover AAR trucks? I can only recall one more -- the infamous 6560 Bucyrus Erie Crane Car from 1971. Please let me know if you see any others!

Regards,

Todd

Rob,

Darn it -- I forgot about the MPC-era barrel cars!

TRW

quote:

I'm fairly certain the boxes say Made in Mexico.

I checked my 8404 turbine. The box has a very thin paper label affixed to the box that says "Made and Litho in USA".

Great catch on the 6805 Radio Active Waste Car service manual page. Thinking about it, it makes sense -- most of the other cars and cabooses that need a ground could get it through their stamped-metal frames. Since the 6805 doesn't have a metal frame, it would need a ground wire. If you've declared any of those extra trucks you purchased as "surplus," I could use a few more if they're available.

Originally Posted by C W Burfle:

I just dug mine out, and it says Made in Mexico, without any trace of a label.

My feeling is that his one was accidentally not labeled, versus it truly being made in Mexico.

I think I know who the Lionel engineer was on that project, so I'm going to shoot him a note and see what he remembers.

You guys are right. MPC saved Lionel Trains. If you look at the Lionel catalog of 1968 it had the same cover as 1966, 67. But it had no pages. It just unfolded as one page. I remember thinking at the time that this is the end of Lionel. MPC saved the company and kept a lot of Lionel fans in trains. Don

Hello guys and gals..........

Did the MPC change the tooling to make gears out of plastic instead of metal from the postwar era. The gears are still made of plastic to this day on the lionel F-3's since the first early MPC F-3's came out in 1973 or 74 ? Early F-3's uses white color on the gears and later changed to black color gears but still plastic.  My #18117 Santa Fe F-3's came with black plastic gears and I changed over to metal just like the postwar 2383's.

The woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

This is one of my favorite threads.  I love digging at these details from the past.  Whats special about the 6560 Bucyrus Erie Crane Car from 1971?

quote:

If you've declared any of those extra trucks you purchased as "surplus," I could use a few more if they're available.

I will see how many I have left.

the early MPC days are really interesting to me. Wish there was a lot more info out there about it. Posts like this one are awesome to find out some of the back story 

Yep, great thread.

Based on the mention of it above, I ordered "Inside The Lionel Trains Fun Factory." Was aware of the book but was never interested enough to get it. Sounds like it has some great Lionel history. 

quote:

 Interestingly, it was the die-cast wheel that was the true origin of the "Fast Angle" moniker, but I'll do that story on another day.

I am looking forward to reading your take on the creation of the fast angle wheels.
I remember there being an article in one of the train magazines on the subject back when they were created. Probably RMC, as they were more friendly towards Lionel fans.

I have had fast angle wheels that were coated with a coppery looking material before being blackened. Would that anodized or plated?

Really loving this thread.  Todd, I'll buy that book when you haven't written it too!

Jon

hello guys and gals............

I think the postwar F-3's came with a 2 piece assembly horn and bit later came one piece die-cast metal horn up to 1966 and 1970- ? MPC era changed to chrome plated plastic horn?  Then LTI era switched back to 2 piece horn again is that about right ?

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

And just to complete the circle, here's a photo from a buddy of mine showing the underside of the postwar 6805 Radioactive Waste Car with the hole-and-eyelet truck that we've been discussing.

I'm beginning to wonder if that hole was semi-permanently added to the bar-end truck stamping tooling at that point. There weren't hardly any metal trucks used between the time of the 6805's first appearance in 1958 and the reissue of the 6464 boxcars with metal trucks in 1969, which helps explain things a bit.

Another minor mystery kinda/sorta solved, now only 9,999 more to go.

TRW

I find it fascinating that there was an article in Dupont's engineering magazine about the change MPC made to Delrin. Thanks for that information - I have never heard any reference to that before. I'll have to search that out.

The first mention of Delrin  use by Lionel was the 1960 catalog in their HO section for couplers and bearing clips.

Well, then I guess I'd sell two. Thanks, Jon!

There are a lot of Lionel articles in various industrial trade periodicals over the years, especially in the 1970's: Dupont's magazines (both Engineering Design and Dupont Magazine), Machine Design magazine, Production Engineering magazine, Transportation & Distribution Management magazine, etc.

Lionel has also been a "featured user" in a lot of catalogs and promotional literature for different companies. Two off the top of my head are Bristol Brass (involved with Lionel's use of ElectroCal heat transfers first used in late 1972) and Colorbox, who produced a lot of Lionel's product cartons (boxes) in the 1980's.

Come to think about it, one of the greatest articles about Lionel ever published, largely because of color imagery that doesn't appear ANYWHERE else, was from an industrial house organ in the late 1950's -- Steel Horizons from Allegheny Ludlum Steel. 

(P.S. Now you're probably getting an idea of what the "Paper" in my screen name refers to.)

While I couldn't find the reference you mentioned in 1960, I did find it in the 1959 Lionel catalog. Great catch, Chuck! I had no idea that Delrin dated back to the 1950's.

Somewhat off topic.  During the early '60's Chevrolet experimented with Delrin as a durable weight saver on the engine cooling fan for the aircooled Corvair.  Problem was that battery acid destroyed the plastic, which gave off a type of toxic formaldehyde gas.  Not a very safe idea considering the engines hot air supplied the cars interior heat.

Bruce

Looks like one of the articles that PaperTRW mentioned is on the auction site, looks like a pretty interesting article.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dupont...23bcb3#ht_2067wt_783

Todd is correct; in the 1959 catalog Lionel did mention the use of Delrin bearings for their HO bettendorf freight trucks.

November issue of the other magazine has a Focus on Classics article regarding transition freight cars of the early 1970s.

In addition to the fact that it carried over the postwar 6560 number (although in the catalog it used the new 6- prefix), it was also similar to the aforementioned 9150 Gulf tank car in that early versions used leftover Postwar era parts on it; in this case original AAR trucks & wheels; not the modified versions to work with the fast angle wheels and new uncoupling plungers.  So they are fairly hard to find (especially the original boxes) and can command premium prices.

Click on this link to see a pic of one that was auctioned off several years ago.

I wonder if MPC chose the symington wayne truck because the person in charge of retooling trucks knew nothing about trains and thought that was a normal truck to model?   

Are the plastic trucks that LTI replaced the symington wayne with considered AAR?

In answer to the first question:  Most likely.  Someone at MPC probably was rummaging through some railroad literature and just stumbled upon that truck design and decided to go with it because it looked modern.

In answer to your second question, the new truck design LTI came out with was not based on an AAR design; rather, it is roughly based on a prototype ASF ride-control freight truck (probably 100 ton).  I say roughly because the shape of the open cavities on the truck sideframes  aren't as symmetrical in relation to the truck as the real ones are (probably a carryover from the Symington-Wayne truck so that they wouldn't have to re-design the snap-in plastic pickup roller assemblies MPC designed for the S-W truck) and there's too much "clunk" below the roller bearing journals.  But it's definitely a much more representative of modern roller bearing trucks than what MPC came out with.