Lionel Prices

@Justraincrazy posted:

Looked through the new catalog last night. Truly impressive, more on offer than ever. Prices for standard fare not bad, we don’t really collect anything electronic or phone controlled. Why? Maybe I’m getting old, but I see real value in the older stuff. My 22 year old sons learned to cut wood and drive screws when 7 by helping build the layout, learned to wire and power concepts while adding accessories when 8-12, and soldered e unit and pullmor connections through their teens. We still go to shows together, buy old stuff we like at minimal cost, and enjoy the repairs before turning on the zw’s and enjoying the new ride for an evening. Sure, they also have phones and tablets, but I know which gift taught them more useful information, and generally for far less cost. Drop the phone and break it? Done for. Drop an engine from 1950-1980? Buy a new shell and return it to action. Both were important activities, but only one continues to bring a family together in a fun activity. The only train we couldn’t repair was one with an electronic board that was fried by a voltage surge - our only disappointment so far! At least the layout splits into two mirror image self-supporting layouts for the future! Yes, the new catalog and newer electronics and features are impressive, the stuff of dreams even, but my son gave me a 1615 switcher for Christmas that was filthy and needs work. There are three men spending an hour or two today putting someone’s past “stuff of dreams” back in action. I’m not sure a $2500 Acela with remote pantograph and operating doors would have the same effect, but it is very impressive, regardless of the cost.

Thats great ! !

Think trains are expensive, try buying steak!  And in 24 hours look what the steak turns into!

Jon

@KOOLjock1 posted:

Think trains are expensive, try buying steak!  And in 24 hours look what the steak turns into!

I was raised with 6 brothers and sisters, Dad factory blue collar, Mom finally went back to work, and we STILL lived only off of furniture which had been given to us by family friends, spam, etc. My wife may have been worse off, was given only pens to play with when she accompanied her mother to work (in a setting with no toilet.)

When is the last time any forumites missed a meal? I really get a chuckle out of all the complaints.

@ThatGuy posted:

While I love my trains, and I do run everything from pre war to post and beyond. The prices are now out of hand. I had a friend this year want to buy his son his first remote controlled train set. Off we went to the train store, and the sticker shock came. For any set that is really nice we are talking in excess of 500 dollars and that includes only a circle of track so the train can chase its tail! After figuring out a few extra cars and track we topped one grand. He put the stuff back and purchased an I pad that was less money and could teach his son. This I fear goes on more than I would like to think about, mean while Lionel's new catalog is getting to the point were a small loan will be needed. Instead of prices either being flat or even down a point or two we now have engines pushing 2100 hundred dollars. The market just gets smaller and smaller or people go to HO, where at least the prices are much easier to take or service and parts are not an issue in most cases.

Your perception may skewed by by your experience.  In 1966 a Lionel Santa Fe diesel sold for $125. That is equivalent to $1177 in 2020.  That’s not taking the recent pandemic induced inflation into consideration.  Lionel trains are not inexpensive now and they never been inexpensive. The costs only seem out of reach because that kind of discretionary money isn’t just lying around for most people.  Lionel will sell most of what is planned as there are plenty of buyers willing to pay whatever it takes.

Every catalog we have this discussion and I suspect in July we'll be doing it again.  I would have thought Lionel would have run out of customers willing to pay the prices.  But not yet.

We like to fish offshore, used to own a 41’ sport fish. Now enjoying trains, fishing with others.

Just glad to see Lionel still in business and appear to be doing well. Many are gone and few are rushing in to undersell them. Must be a good reason.

@RixTrack posted:

Your perception may skewed by by your experience.  In 1966 a Lionel Santa Fe diesel sold for $125. That is equivalent to $1177 in 2020.  That’s not taking the recent pandemic induced inflation into consideration.  Lionel trains are not inexpensive now and they never been inexpensive. The costs only seem out of reach because that kind of discretionary money isn’t just lying around for most people.  Lionel will sell most of what is planned as there are plenty of buyers willing to pay whatever it takes.

Then again when you compare the price of some of the "New" err MTH tooled prices of yesteryear compared to what's in this catalog, the price did go up. The BANTAM S-2 turbine is well over the MSRP price of MTH's with Inflation factored in and the MTH set of the early 2000's included track and a transformer.  The transfer dock accessory I think would be another hard sell, dealers are pricing those around $250 when the MTH versions are available for much less on eBay.

Prices are up and all we can do is complain to deaf ears. If things are overprice (I think many are) and stuff stops selling then Lionel has a problem on their hands. There is no evidence yet that they are in trouble.

@MartyE posted:

Every catalog we have this discussion and I suspect in July we'll be doing it again.  I would have thought Lionel would have run out of customers willing to pay the prices.  But not yet.

And of course before every catalog cycle someone makes the case that catalogs don’t matter anymore. All we need is special runs. Then the Lionel catalog comes out and their are 500 points an hour on OGR talking about it.😄

@RixTrack posted:

Your perception may skewed by by your experience.  In 1966 a Lionel Santa Fe diesel sold for $125. That is equivalent to $1177 in 2020.

Not quite.  This equivalence assumes that all prices have risen at the same rate as the average.  If the average is x10, you'll find that many things did not rise that fast and other things rose faster.  In 1966, a very nice, new car or truck could be had for $2000; you can't buy any nice automobile for $20,000 today.  On the other hand, food staples have not risen at the same rate.  The situation is considerably more complex than the average indicates.

@MartyE posted:

Every catalog we have this discussion and I suspect in July we'll be doing it again.  I would have thought Lionel would have run out of customers willing to pay the prices.  But not yet.

As long as Lionel continues to create the literal stuff of dreams there will be some us pressing our faces against the shop window and wishing…others just go in and buy.  What I find sad is the blanket disparaging of the new products by the coots and codgers that are not presently active in the market for those items.  It seems that since they are not, or cannot buy the new items, they must talk them down. It’s like they are not happy and feel the need to spread their unhappiness among others.

This isn't about rent or the price of bread, it's about expensive toys for people with a little bit of money to spend.  That's okay.

With the loss of MTH, I just hope Lionel and the dealers can survive. If the high-roller, $2000 locomotive-buying guys can keep all the little shops going, better for everyone.  I've seen what cheap looks like in other markets, like high-end audio where brands got bought up by cheap Chinese knock-off companies making junk. I think most would rather have the continuity that Lionel has, with its history going all the way back.

@palallin posted:

Not quite.  This equivalence assumes that all prices have risen at the same rate as the average.  If the average is x10, you'll find that many things did not rise that fast and other things rose faster.  In 1966, a very nice, new car or truck could be had for $2000; you can't buy any nice automobile for $20,000 today.  On the other hand, food staples have not risen at the same rate.  The situation is considerably more complex than the average indicates.

Go here to check values

https://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/uscompare/

@RixTrack posted:

Your perception may skewed by by your experience.  In 1966 a Lionel Santa Fe diesel sold for $125. That is equivalent to $1177 in 2020.  That’s not taking the recent pandemic induced inflation into consideration.  Lionel trains are not inexpensive now and they never been inexpensive. The costs only seem out of reach because that kind of discretionary money isn’t just lying around for most people.  Lionel will sell most of what is planned as there are plenty of buyers willing to pay whatever it takes.

Which Lionel Santa Fe diesel sold for $125. in 1966?  To my memory there were no Lionel engines catalogued even close to $100.00 in 1966.  In 1964 I bought a Lionel Santa Fe end cab switcher brand new for from a Lionel dealer for $25.  I bought an AA set of Lionel Santa Fe FA 2 diesels in 1962 for my 027 layout, I believe the price was in the mid to high 20 dollar range.  During the 1960s the F3 EMD units sold at a higher price because of the greater detail and one of the units had two motors and of course the other was a dummy.  Perhaps a Lionel set with a Santa Fe engine sold for $125. in 1966?  

I believe it was a set.  It was a page from a 1966 catalog that someone posted on Facebook.  I’ve been in the antiques business for a couple of decades.  I use the measuring worth website to determine modern equivalent costs.  By then way, 1966 was used as reference year for inflation by economists through the 1970s.  

In 1942, Sears was selling a Lionel set for $9.37.  That’s roughly $295 to $495 depending on what measurements you use.  That’s just about the same range for a starter set today. The issue is that wages never catch up so the products become less affordable over time.  

@RixTrack posted:

I believe it was a set.  It was a page from a 1966 catalog that someone posted on Facebook.  I’ve been in the antiques business for a couple of decades.  I use the measuring worth website to determine modern equivalent costs.  By then way, 1966 was used as reference year for inflation by economists through the 1970s.  

Set 12780 was a 6 unit Santa Fe passenger set with 2 A units, One powered with two magnatraction motors and a dummy with a horn.  Also included were 4 illuminated passenger cars and track (but no transformer...) The advertised price in the catalog was $125.

Subsequently this was the beginning of the end for postwar Lionel as a new catalog was not issued in 1967 and the 68 & 69 catalogs were glorified brochures with little product.  Were the prices too high in 1966?

"The issue is that wages never catch up so the products become less affordable over time. "

My understanding is that while there has been wage stagnation since the 1970s for some, purchasing power in 2022 is much greater for the average wage owner now than in 1966, overall, according to most economists.  Therefore trains are more affordable for most consumers, despite inflation.  The proportion of families with an automobile or even two or more automobiles is much higher in 2022, for example.  If nothing else, there are a lot more upper middle class earners now than back then.  Wage inequality is also much greater.  A working class individual might have less purchasing power today, but a much higher proportion of the population is "wealthy" however you care to define that.  Bottom line, the combination of greater purchasing power and greater overall wealth make trains more affordable to many people than in 1966.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

KD,

Sorry to hear that.  How does it do so?  There's plenty of excitement in this new catalog.  For youngsters so many themed sets.  All different kinds.  For the scale group a very nice NW 1218.  A good array of LC 2.0+ for traditional size lovers.

But perhaps nothing for you.

Maybe as we get older it takes more to rekindle that excitement?

What would strike your fancy enough today to make it happen?

Mike

Rekindle the excitement?  I dunno...I find it's a fairly common question amongst septuagenarians.

I think pages 20-21 of the new catalog were too much for me this time around.

With the ATSF flag being a favorite, I was intrigued with the 3-pack of stock cars.  Then I saw the price.  At $150 a car, it was worthy of a gasp and some elevation of cardiac palpitation.

So, I checked the fine print of features.   I guess the $$$ is attributable to the inclusion of "Legacy Railsounds"...in one car??

Then I saw the notation re..."Quilling" Pig.  Dear Lord, what in God's name is a "Quilling Pig"??  I asked the spouse.  She laughed.  I suggested it must have some relationship to a quilling whistle.  What's that?, she asked.  I explained that the whistle tone would change depending on how hard you pulled on the whistle rope.  I tried to demonstrate...sotta voce.

Then we both tried to imagine a "quilling pig" sound.

ROTFLOAO!

For $450??   I don't think so.

But, TEHO, of course.

Ya had to mention the "quilling pig" didn't cha?   My thoughts = yours when I saw that too.  I can hardly wait 'til someone makes a post of that unit with sound.   I want to hear the "quilling pig"!   Enquiring minds want to know!

Too funny!   I'm grinning like the Cheshire Cat as I write this.   

Hey!  Whoaaaaaa!!!  Wait a cotton-pickin' minute.  There is an idea for a new boxcar - the Cheshire Cat sound boxcar with "quilling meow".

😉

@Jeff T posted:

I took a look at the 2022 Lionel catalog Friday AM, purchased a Kato N Scale starter set Friday night.

I could never go to HO or N.  They are just too quiet.  I need the clickety clack of the wheels on the track and the noise of the O scale motors.

Someone used to comment about the ozone and smoke pellets as aroma therapy.    I think agree.

@RichardVB posted:

Ya had to mention the "quilling pig" didn't cha?   My thoughts = yours when I saw that too.  I can hardly wait 'til someone makes a post of that unit with sound.   I want to hear the "quilling pig"!   Enquiring minds want to know!

Too funny!   I'm grinning like the Cheshire Cat as I write this.   

Hey!  Whoaaaaaa!!!  Wait a cotton-pickin' minute.  There is an idea for a new boxcar - the Cheshire Cat sound boxcar with "quilling meow".

😉

You can go to around 8 minutes in this video and hear the moo -  https://youtu.be/3t-OTSTyIhg

I think cattle sound cars are a lot of fun. So does everyone else who sees them and plays with them on our layout. This comment is coming from someone who is well outside the baby boomer generation (somewhere between gen x and a millennial) who according to a number of post in this thread will never care about trains due to several factors including cost, which has always been a factor since the day I was born.

Curious what are middle school and high school students into that cost isn’t a factor? The only difference between trains and an iPad is a parent doesn’t have to spend time with a kid with an iPad. That’s normally why it wins out if we are all being honest.

@aussteve posted:

I could never go to HO or N.  They are just too quiet.  I need the clickety clack of the wheels on the track and the noise of the O scale motors.

Someone used to comment about the ozone and smoke pellets as aroma therapy.    I think agree.

Quiet, what a novelty when running a train. I can be in the office on a call and still see it moving. Nice change of pace.

@Jeff T posted:

Quiet, what a novelty when running a train. I can be in the office on a call and still see it moving. Nice change of pace.

See it?.... N scale? ...I question that LOL!

$119.00 for a Bobber caboose??? 

Come on Lionel !!!!!

I'm pretty much done with new Lionel....

@RickO posted:

See it?.... N scale? ...I question that LOL!

As we get older G scale is the new O............LOL

@palallin posted:

Not quite.  This equivalence assumes that all prices have risen at the same rate as the average.  If the average is x10, you'll find that many things did not rise that fast and other things rose faster.  In 1966, a very nice, new car or truck could be had for $2000; you can't buy any nice automobile for $20,000 today.  On the other hand, food staples have not risen at the same rate.  The situation is considerably more complex than the average indicates.

An example of this… My grandmother (before she passed 20 years ago) told me they bought a new color TV in the 60s for about $500.  At that time around 1997, a quality stereo 19” color was about the same price, or cheaper!  The biggest difference…?

It included a remote!

@Train Nut posted:

$119.00 for a Bobber caboose???

Come on Lionel !!!!!

I'm pretty much done with new Lionel....

What do you see as a fair price for this bobber caboose?

Re 'Moooo' sounds for a cattle car...

Don't remember the source...John Allen?, maybe...but someone had created a 'Mooo' cattle car that was triggered by a dangling contact wire which, if the car were excessively jostled...braking, shunting, etc...would initiate the bovine complaint!  No, come to think of it, John's version was a rolling ball on a U-shaped ramp within the car.

Returning to the Silly Quilly Pig sound debuting in a stock car near you...   Seems it would've made sense to incorporate that in a new Lionel accessory, instead.  You know, a pig with a rope around its neck being encouraged by the farmer to enter the cushy trailer for transport to the meat market, both of them rocking back and forth in a tug of boar war, the poar boar squilling squealing away while some evil guy with a smirk for a smile is thumbing the control button/wheel on a Legacy controller.

I breathlessly await the Barney sound car...with the beloved Barney tune playing...continuously, with no shut-off switch in order to reduce costs.   And the primal scream (No caps, not the Scottish rock band!) sound caboose to follow.

@RickO posted:

See it?.... N scale? ...I question that LOL!

Your eyes must be worse than mine brother!!

@rplst8 posted:

An example of this… My grandmother (before she passed 20 years ago) told me they bought a new color TV in the 60s for about $500.  At that time around 1997, a quality stereo 19” color was about the same price, or cheaper!  The biggest difference…?

It included a remote!

I think the historic prices of electronics can't be compared with historic prices of anything else.  When we moved into my first house in 1979 we bought the biggest, nicest color TV we could find.  IIRC it was $600-700, and in a very nice wood cabinet.  The efficiencies in manufacturing those components kept the price down, not to mention the fact that hardly any of that is made in the USA so labor is cheaper.

Anyway, I just joined OGR and this is my first post.  I recently reacquainted myself with my 50s-60s Lionel set in order to show my granddaughter, so I've been looking at online stuff to help me bring it back to its glory days.

@Train Nut posted:

$119.00 for a Bobber caboose???

Come on Lionel !!!!!

I'm pretty much done with new Lionel....

What don't you understand about Lionel's pricing?

Premium priced.  Always has been.  From day one.

Is it more than that right now?  Yes.  Why?  Inflation.  12% last year, which caught them and everyone else by surprise.  Add another 12 because it looks like we'll see that again this year.  This is much bigger than a toy train problem.

That's how you get $119.00 MSRP for a bobber.   And, as always, retail prices will be lower, especially if you shop around.

If you want something cheaper look elsewhere.  Sticking with older stuff would be reasonable.

Mike

All I have to add on this repeat discussion is choices choices choices.   Another newer big screen flat TV, or an updated computer (mine is 12 years old), or perhaps a newer vehicle.   Since we're not spending much dining out (bottles of wine are expensive at restaurants) it seems my variable fun money envelope is doing ok so while the price increases are not really the limiting factor,  it still comes down to choices.

        I do remember in 1964 when my father splurged and bought my mother a new Ford Thunderbird,..   at $5,000 or so it was quite a bit more than a Ford LTD or Chevy Impala,..     So it's choices,    beside there is one sure thing about having extra money, it is only temporary.

  On a funnier note I used to travel to Vegas several times a year for business meetings and conferences.  That was during the time Vegas was trying to become more of a "Family Vacation" destination.   As I was in the shopping mall buying some new underwear (cheaper than hotel laundry) I saw a guy arguing with his son about a new video game.   He said "I'm not going to waste $49 dollars on that crap"    What makes it funny is the night before I saw this guy at the slot machines,...    he was working two as fast as he could pull the handle.

Choices,..  I've already donated to various charity and relief drives,..    made sure my family and grandkids are ok,..   I like my trains and other, toys.

I appreciate the spectrum of perspectives posted here.  I am very casually returning to model railroading after being first exposed to it when my son was a toddler 12 or so years ago.  I like to say I’m living the hobby vicariously through him but factually, I appreciate the hardware at least as much as he does.

I do not have a layout.  I just casually throw track on an 8’x 8’ table.  I own a mix of G, O and HO but I like O the most for its functionality.  Arguments about inflation and affordability aside, I am not in Lionel’s demographic.  When I attend a train show, the first thing I look for is the lowly MPC era running stock.

My perception is that the due to its nature, the hobby is struggling due to its status compared to demographics of 50-75 years ago.  However, maybe Lionel recognizes the entry segment is small and instead, chooses to focus on the mature and more affluent collector.  As a result, Lionel prices aren’t based on what they need to charge to survive but what they can charge because they will sell every item they make at the price they choose.

It is impossible to factor in technology when making cost comparisons.  Technology is a huge factor.   Eli Whitney, canned food, carbon fiber, IC and COB electronics to name a few. 

You can make some comparisons but a simple interest calculator will rarely give you a good picture.  Especially since you are comparing hard currency prices versus fiat currency.

@NW posted:

My perception is that the due to its nature, the hobby is struggling due to its status compared to demographics of 50-75 years ago.  However, maybe Lionel recognizes the entry segment is small and instead, chooses to focus on the mature and more affluent collector.  As a result, Lionel prices aren’t based on what they need to charge to survive but what they can charge because they will sell every item they make at the price they choose.

Wow, I don’t agree with any of that. Who tells you the hobby is struggling? I’m sure they choose pricing based on delivering a needed profit to stay in business.

  I have been reluctant to add to the discussion because of the concerns voiced connotating "Lionelers" vs "anti-Lionelers". To me, that is not the issue-and being at this hobby for 50-some years, I clearly relish Lionel trains.

  Like most folk, I presume, I would like to think that I spend my money wisely-so if I pay top dollar for something, I just feel better if I get something of top quality in return. Reading ( and experiencing) problems with reasonably expensive engines out-of-the-box is therefore concerning. The recent discussions about the milk reefer trucks is likewise. So IMHO, high priced items deserve high price quality control.

  I also believe, again I presume, that none of us want to feel like we are being taken for a proverbial ride-$120 for a bobber caboose ( MTH a few years ago suggested $40 for the RK version and $60 for the Premier), $95 for a traditional box car ( remember when K Line listed $20-30 for the same), $100 for a hopper car, etc ale all eyebrow raising, to say the least. They make one one suspicious about all the other items/prices.

  I sincerely hope that Lionel "makes it" -and that the folks who are now purchasing the big ticket items continue their interest. Just dont forget the other buyers-those older on a fixed income, those younger raising families ( we have 5 children-all went to private schools-best money I ever spent-. All are independent with families/kids and doing well.-I certainly didn't purchase many 22,000 engines then), etc..                       Enjoy those trains-turtle7

While I do think some things are nuts (bobber caboose), for the most part I expected a price jump. MTH is kinda up in the air (largely owned by atlas with some part of the company currently living on). CPI and PPI are through the roof and the price of the used market is often only a little cheaper than pre orders were a few years ago. We are also forgetting that the lockdowns brought quite a few new people into the hobby. Furthermore, there is no way to understate the supply chain and inflation issue. We have been lucky in central MD, but certain groceries are often hard to find and I’m starting to hear about stores with lots of empty shelves. An anecdote supporting this is outdoor Christmas decor, which I buy every year. The last 2 years have seen around a $10 -20 price increase for larger items and stores don’t have anywhere near enough supply to meet demand. Selling out first week of December, while in previous years I was able to buy things at a deep discount on 12/26. In terms of prices and availability everything sucks right now. So, I’m putting the majority of the increase on the situation  and not Lionel, while arguing that on some items, they are charging way too much.

@NYC Fan posted:

That hood over the headlight really bothers me. Not the classic NYC look. If it comes out and it's not there, I may go for one. Same with the Atlantic. For those prices, get it right,

I dont think , Lionel has ever really cared if they got  it right, thats why I have gone to other mfgs, and to brass

I just picked up some second hand ATSF 21" cars for $115 a car.  A very reasonable price in my mind.  Previously I picked up an Amtrak dome for $80 because it didn't have the box.  This tells me a lot about the second-hand market for Lionel modern items.  On the contrary, I have not seen any of my GGD cars on the secondary market for less than list price when I even see them at all.

However, having said that I find the 21" Lionel cars to be very well-done cars.  I will likely get the 6 car Amtrak Phase III set less the Stupi-sounds diner.  Will it be worth what I paid for it down the road?  Not likely, but if I get good play value out of them it will be worth more than money.