Lionel Visionline Niagara Arriving

I can confirm that Charles Ro dinged my CC this afternoon and FedEx has scheduled arrival in Florida by this Saturday for my Visionline Niagara.

Got my notice from Ro today, also. I hardly ever buy any current production stuff these days. Will it have that new Niagara smell?

Just where did I put that money....?

As I remember the Niagara Falls has just a hint of fishy smell.  Coal Scent Smoke fluid should cover the fishy smell up.  I am hoping my recently placed order for #6013 can be filled.

Mine was supposedly delivered today - unfortunately, I'm out of town on business till Friday so can't post photos. 

I can't wait York and my Niagaras Christmas came early! Woo woo!

I Haven heard anything yet...

Guess I better get my penny's together, the invoice should be calling soon...Can't wait.

PJB posted:

Mine was supposedly delivered today - unfortunately, I'm out of town on business till Friday so can't post photos. 

Yes...photos please!

Mark in Oregon

Waiting to hear from Tranworld on mine.  Ordered the Grey Version - i forgot where i put the money for it though!!  look forward to getting it 

ted K posted:

Waiting to hear from Tranworld on mine.  Ordered the Grey Version - i forgot where i put the money for it though!! 

...  ...

Mark in Oregon

Mine ships tomorrow! It will take a week to get to me so yes.... I am anxiously awaiting photos and a video.

Spoke with Butch at Charles Ro about 45 minutes ago since I didn’t receive an e-mail but my cc was charged a couple of days ago. Seems I need to update my e-mail address with them.  Anyway, he confirmed that mine was delivered today. 

Oh boy!!!

Mike

Well, lets see em!

My uncles showed up yesterday. 

Thanks for sharing pics.  A stunning locomotive!  I have strict rules about which road names I acquire so as to not buy more than can fit on the layout.   I'm beginning to regret that now with this loco.  It will be interesting to see how I react should I come across one for sale next week at York.  I was able to resist a Vision Line Big Boy last year...might be time to post about my current state of mind on Brother Yojimbo's confessional

-Greg

mine arrives Monday,can't wait

Trainlover9943 posted:

My uncles showed up yesterday. 

Hey Matt, when is the video coming?

Bill

Greg Houser, 

I just couldn't purchase eastern road names either so I went with the undecorated one.  I know the crew talk will probably say something about New York but I can live with that.  After seeing the proto-type last York I just had to order.  I'm glad they did the undeco one, and will wait for Santa to bring it on the 25th of Dec.

Jim

Bill Yates posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

My uncles showed up yesterday. 

Hey Matt, when is the video coming?

Bill

Might do a quick run video tonight. 

FedEx did a stunning job getting #6005 to me despite navigating hurricane Michael on I-95 this week. No damage noted and just fired it up electrically for these shots. YouTube video tomorrow....

Sweet! 

@Bill Yates quick look at the Niagara https://youtu.be/QOnpET8MebQ

Looks like a winner. 

After lubricating mine, servicing the smoke units, and running for 30 minutes, here are a few observations:

Mine runs like a Swiss watch; under Legacy control, operation is much smoother than my Century Club version.

The blackened side-rods really step-up the "look' of this engine versus shiny rods (and they are individual rod links..).

The operating tender plate is strengthened appreciably over the Century Club design.

My sand-dome cover was somewhat stuck upon initial removal, likely due to new paint. There is a small notch on the forward split line you can get a fingernail in to help with its removal.

The instruction book makes several "bold" warning to NOT add more than 20 drops of smoke fluid upon the initial fill-up of each smoke unit. I observed this to a "T"; my stack smoke and pop-off smoke work well. On my tender smoke, I saw a small bubble in the fill port and should have taken that as a warning. The tender smoke fluid was stubborn getting it to go down the fill port, but did so when I slanted the nose of the tender upward. I presently have intermittent smoke on the tender, but all sounds work when smoke is requested. When the smoke on the tender does work, it belches volumes of smoke so I assume it is actually over-filled at this point and I will work with it to burn some fluid out/let some evaporate as well. My advice, try your tender smoke before adding any new fluid upon receipt to avoid my issue.

The three speakers really step-up the audio aspects of this Niagara; great bass and volume. The "Force Coupler" feature really does cut in and out during travels around the layout due to the pull required by the engine.

One other issue I noted was that during backing up a load of twelve cars, the drawbar vertical "stub" on the engine side can contact the center rail intermittently on my particular engine. This may be just my engine or something to check with yours as well. There is some downward slope to both halves of the wireless drawbar; there may be a way to shim both sides up somewhat to alleviate this issue. I'm running on Atlas"O", but the possibility should be evident on all three rail track....

All in all, I'm quite happy with what I've seen so far; good luck to all that purchased this engine and enjoy!

Now THAT is a tastefully done fantasy paint scheme, and certainly the most plausible.

No clown figures needed in the cab.

Mine came 30 minutes ago and is in the box sitting on the couch. Plan to open it tomorrow.

The FedEx deliverer had misread a box code on her device and though the box was huge, so she backed into my driveway. I feared that Ro had accidentally sent me several! Or everybody's!

Do any of the black models not have white walls or do they all?

So far all reviews seem to be very positive. Good for Lionel.

Do these come with an orange module? If not I am I curious how the extra features like tender overflow get activated on the handhelds.

Pete

Norton: These do come with an orange module for Legacy loading. The tender overflow feature is activated with a "number 3" key-press.

Surefire posted:

Do any of the black models not have white walls or do they all?

I don't think so and it's a shame. I don't like the white walls at all. The images showed thinner ones and I was in wait and see mode. Beautiful locomotive though! Congrats to the happy new owners - a winner for sure.

Got #6013 yesterday. Very nicely done. 

Looking forward to mine!

Peter

Randy_B posted:

Surefire posted:

Do any of the black models not have white walls or do they all?

I don't think so and it's a shame. I don't like the white walls at all. The images showed thinner ones and I was in wait and see mode. Beautiful locomotive though! Congrats to the happy new owners - a winner for sure.

I seem to recall the catalogue photos showing with and without those (blasted) whitewalls. I believe the later versions with the twin-beam headlight do not have them. They did exist at one time on at least a few Niagaras, but went away. Some roads used aluminum paint. Not sure about the Central.

Mine is the Pilot version, so the question is moot for me.

Love all the videos...

ezmike posted:

Spoke with Butch at Charles Ro about 45 minutes ago since I didn’t receive an e-mail but my cc was charged a couple of days ago. Seems I need to update my e-mail address with them.  Anyway, he confirmed that mine was delivered today. 

Oh boy!!!

Mike

I just pre-ordered a Lionel RS11 from Charles Ro and asked to receive an e-mail when the engine arrived in house and before my card would be charged. I got a reply in all capitals that said "SORRY,WE DON'T EMAIL BEFORE SHIPPING" .  

Usually get a e-mail from FedEx with a tracking number. Then if I check my credit card it will show the charge is pending.

Mine was delivered on Thursday by FedEx as Butch from Charlie Ro told me.

Heres a short video, whistle steam and pop off steam are much better than they look in the video. Very happy with mine. 

I haven't heard anything, but probably will after York. Looking forward to it. Thanks for sharing all the videos and pictures.

Gorgeous locomotive, EZMike, but you run your locomotives slower than Scrapiron Scher.

Scrapiron Scher posted:

Gorgeous locomotive, EZMike, but you run your locomotives slower than Scrapiron Scher.

Thanks... only for videos. 

Mike

Anybody compare the tooling on this versus the century club model? The tender looks different in the back to my eye

20centuryhudson posted:

Anybody compare the tooling on this versus the century club model? The tender looks different in the back to my eye

All of the pictures I have seen, they are identical save the cab apron which is thicker. It was my understanding the new one would be assembled differently, perhaps a one piece boiler vs two piece. I will find out for sure after York when mine arrives.

Pete

Annoying to me that the valve oil linkage is missing

Got home yesterday, unboxed it, put it on our 7' test track, fired it up and - the new Vision Niagara is everything I'd hoped for .... and less:  

Less drama.  The past few Lionel locomotives I've purchased have had defects and jerky operation.  Resulting in unhappy children, returns to Lionel, and weeks waiting for what we ordered to actually be "right."  This brute, however, seems to have nice smooth operation.  We've come to expect the drama and it was so nice when this thing fired up and seems to be working as it should right out of the box. Fundamentally, this was the biggest checkmark for us. 

Less expensive.  Kind of a backhanded compliment, but I expected the quality of functions to be lower given this 4-8-4 was "only" around $1,500 (compared to some of the other recent VL steamer prices), but all the smoke functions not only work well, but they seem to have improved. Rather than the wisps of smoke I've come to expect from Lionel (compared to MTH), this thing has a prodigious smoke output.  The sound package is incredible. A horn and whistle too - what?! And the paint and assembly seems state of the art. 

Less detail. Well, this could just be me, but the description says a "high level of detail."  While I'm not in the same galaxy as rivet counters, to my untrained, uneducated eye, the details (hoses, pipes, doo dads) on the boiler seem sort of spartan?  Having said that, it has clean beautiful lines, there are nice hand painted details, the pop off valves and builders plate are all crisply done, etc. So, for what it provides, it has delivered very well.  

"Less detail. Well, this could just be me, but the description says a "high level of detail."  While I'm not in the same galaxy as rivet counters, to my untrained, uneducated eye, the details (hoses, pipes, doo dads) on the boiler seem sort of spartan?"  

I don't mean to sound like a grumpy old man (too late), but does anyone ever look at photos of the real locomotives?

Indeed, why would one even buy the model unless one has seen the real thing, or its image?

The Niagara, the definition of the modern steam locomotive, had very few "doo dads" ("is that an Elesco or Worthington doo dad "?) visible on it. The thing was virtually streamstyled, if not streamlined, enhanced by the smoke lifters. But it was not either. It was modern engineering, done with some esthetic sense*, and, had steam survived, more and more locomotives would have looked like it.

It was industrial sleek and slick, and kept most of its "doo dads" in its pants.

(*The original 1920's J1 Hudson specs from management instructed the designer - Kiefer, same as the Niagara's - to give the new locomotive "pleasing proportions", roughly quoted.) 

D500 posted:

"Less detail. Well, this could just be me, but the description says a "high level of detail."  While I'm not in the same galaxy as rivet counters, to my untrained, uneducated eye, the details (hoses, pipes, doo dads) on the boiler seem sort of spartan?"  

I don't mean to sound like a grumpy old man (too late), but does anyone ever look at photos of the real locomotives?

Indeed, why would one even buy the model unless one has seen the real thing, or its image?

The Niagara, the definition of the modern steam locomotive, had very few "doo dads" ("is that an Elesco or Worthington doo dad "?) visible on it. The thing was virtually streamstyled, if not streamlined, enhanced by the smoke lifters. But it was not either. It was modern engineering, done with some esthetic sense*, and, had steam survived, more and more locomotives would have looked like it.

It was industrial sleek and slick, and kept most of its "doo dads" in its pants.

(*The original 1920's J1 Hudson specs from management instructed the designer - Kiefer, same as the Niagara's - to give the new locomotive "pleasing proportions", roughly quoted.) 

That's a good point, and I had little knowledge on the facts you raised, so thanks for this.  In terms of the only thing you've focused on from my entire post - did I look at the real thing - I did. Here's one of the images I found before ordering.  To my untrained eye, it looks like it has a a good amount more external doo dads than the the "high level of detail" Vision version.  Again, not a deal breaker for me by any stretch, as I don't buy these things for rivets but rather for play value, and this one is a winner in that regard ... 

PJB posted:

 

That's a good point, and I had little knowledge on the facts you raised, so thanks for this.  In terms of the only thing you've focused on from my entire post - did I look at the real thing - I did. Here's one of the images I found before ordering.  To my untrained eye, it looks like it has a a good amount more external doo dads than the the "high level of detail" Vision version.  Again, not a deal breaker for me by any stretch, as I don't buy these things for rivers but rather for operating play value, and this one is a winner in that regard ... 

 

Thats a Mohawk, not a Niagara. MTH did some nice versions of those.

Pete

PJB , Thats a Mohawk in that photo you posted. This is a Niagara, to D500's point, the boiler is much "cleaner".

Wow - did anyone count the number of rivets?   i thought this was model railroading for fun and being as prototypical as possible.  the models are to be enjoyed and run - including nice features etc  can any model train look "exactly" as an old photograph?  Everyone can have their opinion and comments - thanks for all - but you dont need to respond to this post

RickO posted:

PJB , Thats a Mohawk in that photo you posted. This is a Niagara, to D500's point, the boiler is much "cleaner".

Direct from Wikipedia

"The Niagaras did not have steam domes, as did most steam locomotives, which resulted in a smooth contour along the top of the boiler. A perforated pipe collected steam instead. This was necessary because of the lower loading gauge of the New York Central (15 ft 2 in versus 16 ft 2 in (4.93 m) for other American railroads)."

J611: This isn't a post to start a fight, just to clarify what you were referring to above as "missing lubricator linkage". I've attached a photo of mine to ask if that's the linkage you're referring to?

Yep, that's it.

Trainlover9943 posted:

My uncles showed up yesterday. 

Nice color match passenger cars.  What are they?  I need a set for my gray one coming.

RickO posted:

PJB , Thats a Mohawk in that photo you posted. This is a Niagara, to D500's point, the boiler is much "cleaner".

RickO posted:

PJB , Thats a Mohawk in that photo you posted. This is a Niagara, to D500's point, the boiler is much "cleaner".

Hey Pete and RickO -  thanks!  

Just confirms what I said - I'm a novice with an uneducated eye.  I had googled the NYC Niagara many months ago and didn't even realize the image I posted was a Mohawk. I now see that the Vision model is quite a good representation of the real Niagara.  

But again, the thesis of my earlier post was that this Vision offering, at least to me, is a total winner.  It seems this was totally lost on some folks here (certainly NOT you two gents) who live only to complain, criticize, and debate.  

Enjoy the rest of the weekend everyone. 

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

My uncles showed up yesterday. 

Nice color match passenger cars.  What are they?  I need a set for my gray one coming.

Mth Premier cars. 1938 20th century limited. Don't match perfectly but close enough for me. 

Can’t wait to hook mine up to my 12 car 1938 GGD 20 Century set— not prototypical but what the heck!

20centuryhudson posted:

Can’t wait to hook mine up to my 12 car 1938 GGD 20 Century set— not prototypical but what the heck!

Please do a video when you do, would love to see that! Mine is in the mail, when it arrives the GGD 8 car Empire State express with kitbashed station sounds diner will be ready! 

PJB posted:

Hey Pete and RickO -  thanks!  

Just confirms what I said - I'm a novice with an uneducated eye.  I had googled the NYC Niagara many months ago and didn't even realize the image I posted was a Mohawk. I now see that the Vision model is quite a good representation of the real Niagara.  

But again, the thesis of my earlier post was that this Vision offering, at least to me, is a total winner.  It seems this was totally lost on some folks here (certainly NOT you two gents) who live only to complain, criticize, and debate.  

Enjoy the rest of the weekend everyone. 

PBJ,
It seems to me that these folks were only trying to educate you and show you the error in your research. When your school teachers corrected you, did you say that they also "live only to complain, criticize, and debate"?

Anybody test out the force coupler? Who here coupled 100 cars on then went upgrade........

Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:

Anybody test out the force coupler? Who here coupled 100 cars on then went upgrade........

I did .... well, sort of.  I mentioned that I'm relegated to a 7' test track (we're between layouts) on my floor.  Backed up the Niagara a bit too far and the tender ended up with about 1/3 of it's back end off the rails, with rear wheels hanging off. Didn't notice it and when I tried to move forward the beast wouldn't move, but the sounds got deeper and more intense.  

Are the cab gauges backlit?Mine should be arriving any day.Enjoying the videos for now.

Excellent Vision Line!!

Anyone know if all the road numbers come with dual headlights???

RickM46 posted:

Excellent Vision Line!!

Anyone know if all the road numbers come with dual headlights???

Road no. 6005 comes with a single beam headlight.

TrainMan1225 posted:

RickM46 posted:

Excellent Vision Line!!

Anyone know if all the road numbers come with dual headlights???

Road no. 6005 comes with a single beam headlight.

Thanks TrainMan, I like the single beam better.

Got mine last week and was finally able to run it today. I absolutely love it! Lionel did a perfect job on this one. All smoke units work perfectly, which I was really blown away that they did. I truly expected at least one of them to not work properly. Stunning engine to say the least. In fact I like it so much that I am going to buy the dual headlight version as well. 

Should be getting my Gray Niagara this week.  While at York I went on a mission to find out who might produce 21st Century Limited passenger cars to match this engine.  I was possibly going start with the RPO/Baggage cars in 2018 Lionel catalog to start in hopes of a release of passenger, sleepers, and etc... to be produced in the future.

I spoke to Mr. Kunkel in the booth and asked about plans for the additional set.  He was a little unclear with their intentions.  When I asked if there were any plans for a 20th Century Limited set in the future, he responded that it was a real possibility that we could see these in about 2 years.  Enough to agree with me that I should not purchase the cars in the 2018 catalog.  MTH booth personnel told me they were not even considering it at this time.  Not gospel, just what I was told at the show. 

I asked Ryan Kunkel about a Vision set of milk cars to put behind the Niagara. He said he would just like to get the tooling out of Romania! He also stated they may have to re-tool for them.

Romania???  I thought China was it for Lionel (except for some cars produced in N.C.)

Are there any professional "restoration" guys out there who could repaint the smoke box and boiler front black or dark graphite, and lighten the rods, and/or remove the white walls. I wouldn't want it weathered, still want to keep the nice crisp newness of the locomotive number board and oval.  Any recommendations?

D&H 65 posted:

J611: This isn't a post to start a fight, just to clarify what you were referring to above as "missing lubricator linkage". I've attached a photo of mine to ask if that's the linkage you're referring to?

Thanks, I must have missed it in the first set of photos. Glad to see they included it on this model. Both MTH and Lionel have had a bad habit of sometimes including this detail and sometimes not including it. The running gear on these locomotives is the most interesting area of detail to me. 

My 6013 arrived today. Just about flawless in every way. All smoke units work and sounds are impressive. The smoke hatch on the tender was a bit recalcitrant and took some prying but I eventually moved it free. Also straightened the drawbar which was hanging too low to the center rail. 

After reading that Megastream is not recommended I am surprised Lionel smoke fluid was not included. Its on my shopping list now.

Dave, Ryan, you guys did good on this one. Keep it up.

Pete

Norton: I also had to straighten my tender drawbar from the "as manufactured" configuration. Mine was so low, the locomotive drawbar tip would just clear the center rail moving forward and would short to the center rail at times in a backing movement.

NYC Fan posted:

Are there any professional "restoration" guys out there who could repaint the smoke box and boiler front black or dark graphite, and lighten the rods, and/or remove the white walls. I wouldn't want it weathered, still want to keep the nice crisp newness of the locomotive number board and oval.  Any recommendations?

I plan to do those things myself, eventually. I will just enjoy it as it is for a while.

The rods may be able to be tin plated but I got a set from the CCII Niagara I will use and save the blackened ones for the next guy. I also have allen drive screws I will use to replace the phillips screws on the rods. I plan to use them on the CCII Niagara first and will post pics when done.

D&H, I now have a checklist I go through on new engines including the drawbar and eccentrics. Too many times the eccentrics are loose, bind on the first couple of turns and bend the valve gear.

Pete

Norton, glad to hear the Niagara turned out OK.

Can you tell us where you got the allen drive screws and what their size spec is?

I ordered stainless flatheads from McMaster Carr. They are 2.5mm x 20mm long. I had to cut them to length, 14 and 17mm respectively. I intend to radius the head to look more like the prototype. An oval head screw would have been ideal but I couldn't find those in 2.5 mm.

Here is the prototype. Its purely subjective what fastener will look better. This would be difficult to duplicate exactly.

Pete

Norton, I was also looking into redoing the screws.  Exactly which screws did you buy, hex head.  Does one the the screws require a shoulder?  I would be interested in seeing how you did it, and l’m sure it will look great. 

John, Since I intend to do the CCII Niagara first I got some flathead screws but instead of phillips drive, they have an allen drive, ie female hex.

The are part number 93395A514 from McMaster. The CCII uses 14 and 17 mm long  2.5 mm diameter screws on drivers 1, 3, and 4. Not sure what they used on the eccentric yet.

As for the Vision Niagara I assume the screws are the same but have not verified that yet.

The CCII screws don't have a shoulder, rather Lionel used an an insert as a bearing surface. The screws simply hold everything in place.

Here is  a bushing and reason why the screws don't require a shoulder.

Hopefully this weekend I will have some pictures. 

I am already thinking of another mod to make them look closer to the prototype.

Pete

Norton - Screws generally don't bother me as I'm a prototype ignoramus and we buy these things for play value. But the Phillip's head screws do look a little hokey to me.  If the process is as simple as unscrewing the Phillip's head screws and screwing in the ones you've suggested, I might just buy a bunch of these screws, wait for the warranty to expire and replace them.  Thanks very much for the info and I will look forward to your updates over the weekend. 

I am still tossing around ideas. Its apparent it would be near impossible to make a fastener that looks like those bearing retainers but it may be possible to simply print an image of them on a vinyl stick on that could be placed on any flat head screw. Then if the wheel had to be removed for some reason, just peal off the decal.

In the words of another NYC modeler, "Sweat the details".

Pete

Norton 

After reading that Megastream is not recommended...

Pete

 

Omg.  My 6013 arrives today.  Can you please elaborate?  I need no smell smoke fluid...  so i use NADA by megasteam.  

Why cant i use megasteam?

Super O Bob posted:

Norton 

After reading that Megastream is not recommended...

Pete

 

Omg.  My 6013 arrives today.  Can you please elaborate?  I need no smell smoke fluid...  so i use NADA by megasteam.  

Why cant i use megasteam?

Lionel recommends, not surprisingly, to use their premium smoke fluid.  They say it is non conductive and their smoke unit optimized for their fluid if you want to believe that. 

They also in many case will not repair units under warranty if you use other smoke fluids.  I use Lionel until the warranty passes.  Then I use whatever but have typically remained with the Lionel fluid.  They do make an unscented.

You can read Mike Reagan's thoughts on this here.

Thanks very much Marty...

I will see if my dealer has Lionel and i will use that...

There will be many that will disagree with Lionel's recommendation but if the warranty will be in question then I'll use what they suggest until I'll have to pay to repair anyways.  The Lionel fluid has worked well for me.  I do use JTs in some of my older engines.

Mike Reagan which almost everyone agrees knows his stuff,  and is a former employee of Lionel said himself - "Do not use Mega steam in Lionel engines"!

I've had issues myself,  but I won't get into them.

Do what you want.

I'd stick with Lionel smoke fluid in Lionel engines..

Super O Bob posted:

Norton 

After reading that Megastream is not recommended...

Pete

 

Omg.  My 6013 arrives today.  Can you please elaborate?  I need no smell smoke fluid...  so i use NADA by megasteam.  

Why cant i use megasteam?

A forum member here already reported that one of his smoke units quit working correctly. Lionel service told him that Megasteam coats the resistors and if he continued to use it they would not repair it again.

Sounds like a cop out to me but to avoid that situation I have decided to just get some Lionel fluid.

Despite picking up this engine for its smoke effects I am not a fan of smoke anyways. My main interest is its an NYC engine with unique features.

Pete

Anyone have any recs on where to buy a large size of Lionel non-scented smoke fluid for a good price?  

Norton posted:

 Also straightened the drawbar which was hanging too low to the center rail. 

 Pete

D&H 65 posted:

Norton: I also had to straighten my tender drawbar from the "as manufactured" configuration. Mine was so low, the locomotive drawbar tip would just clear the center rail moving forward and would short to the center rail at times in a backing movement.

 

I don't have this engine but I've seen that drawbar issue before. Some of my engines have it hanging so low that it often hits the center rail on my layout (tabletop fastrack not screwed down). To resolve that in my case I've attach a small piece of Kapton Tape to the drawbar to correct the issue. If I have another part of an engine that touches the center rail and the tape is not able to stay attached very well (like on a cowcatcher I have with that issue) I use a small dab of Liquid Electrical Tape.

I have removed a lot of Lionel drawbars to shorten them. They were much wider and stiffer than the one used on the Niagara. It took little effort to straighten this one with my finger. I appears it may have gotten bent when it was placed in the box. Not something to worry about though as its easily rectified.

Pete

Just so all the cards are on the table, I returned my Niagara this past Monday to Lionel to have the stack-smoke unit looked at. It worked flawlessly for the first 30 minutes and then it had what I call a "step-change" in operation. before my issue, I had all three levels of smoke production; after that initial 30 minutes, mine would only produce an amount of smoke I liken to "LOW' being selected on my Cab-2.

My other issue for return was the "tender pressure relief" smoke system would not trigger the smoke function reliably; the "sound" portion always works, but smoke production was random at best. WHEN it worked, it would smoke like all the videos on here show; mine either smoked or didn't smoke even though the sound ALWAYS worked, so I have to say the "Command" was received by the tender smoke control board. I'm waiting to see what Lionel finds out.

And yes, I id use JT's Mega-Steam fluid initially as that's what I had. "Katie" @Lionel Service was the individual who passed on Lionel's policy of not warranting smoke units with JT's in them; they did make an exception this one time.

D&H 65 posted:

Just so all the cards are on the table, I returned my Niagara this past Monday to Lionel to have the stack-smoke unit looked at. It worked flawlessly for the first 30 minutes and then it had what I call a "step-change" in operation. before my issue, I had all three levels of smoke production; after that initial 30 minutes, mine would only produce an amount of smoke I liken to "LOW' being selected on my Cab-2.

My other issue for return was the "tender pressure relief" smoke system would not trigger the smoke function reliably; the "sound" portion always works, but smoke production was random at best. WHEN it worked, it would smoke like all the videos on here show; mine either smoked or didn't smoke even though the sound ALWAYS worked, so I have to say the "Command" was received by the tender smoke control board. I'm waiting to see what Lionel finds out.

And yes, I id use JT's Mega-Steam fluid initially as that's what I had. "Katie" @Lionel Service was the individual who passed on Lionel's policy of not warranting smoke units with JT's in them; they did make an exception this one time.

Several years ago I asked about the warranty question directly to "Talk to Us" and the reply was the same as Katie told you.

Train Nut posted:

Mike Reagan which almost everyone agrees knows his stuff,  and is a former employee of Lionel said himself - "Do not use Mega steam in Lionel engines"!

I've had issues myself,  but I won't get into them.

Do what you want.

I'd stick with Lionel smoke fluid in Lionel engines..

 

So is Mega-Steam bad or was Lionel's product designed not to work with it? We've never ever had issues with it in MTH engines.

Both Williams and MTH engines come with a bottle of the smoke fluid they recommend. I haven't read anywhere in the Lionel owners manual to use Lionel Smoke fluid. You would think they would at least include a 1 oz bottle for you to try along with a warning against other brands?

Pete

Anyone get the pilot niagara? If so please post pics & a video. 

So my Niagara arrived.  AND I said a little prayer to the train-fairy before I opened the box. 

However, sometimes your prayers go unanswered or the answer is no. 

I found a small piece of black plastic that looks like it broke off from somewhere in the wrappings AND a small, about 3 inches, length of  the handrail on one side looks like someone at the factory repainted by hand but poorly as it is lumpy black.

I will start it up this weekend and re-pray.

Norton posted:

Both Williams and MTH engines come with a bottle of the smoke fluid they recommend. I haven't read anywhere in the Lionel owners manual to use Lionel Smoke fluid. You would think they would at least include a 1 oz bottle for you to try along with a warning against other brands?

Pete

While not warning against using others, my VL GG1 manual tells me for best results use Lionel premium smoke fluid and not use fluid from starter sets. If I were not covering issues under warranty I'd sure be putting a small bottle and a strongly worded warning. 

I stand corrected. The Niagara manual says the same thing. 

Pete

I received my 6013 Niagara yesterday.  Everything looks ok but I did NOT receive the owners manual.  Called Lionel and they e mailed me a copy, and told me to call in a few weeks to get a manual sent to me.  Another QC issue.  Going to run it tonite, fingers crossed.

Ordered my Vision Line last Saturday night from TrainWorld and it showed up today by FedEx.  I asked TW to double box it and they did including a lot of packing - cudos to those people, they know how to ship trains; you can see the attached pictures.  No damage to the boxes.  Hats off to TW.

Out of the box, there were no issues with the finish or mechanics or electronics - everything works using the CAB2 remote.  Including the orange memory module was a nice touch.  On this unit, Lionel got everything right.  Since I am running it with a CW80 transformer, I only run one smoke unit at a time - don't want to do anything to mess up a smoke unit - you all know I am the destroyer of smoke units.  For now, I only have an 8 foot test track so no long runs.

Some additional observations: The vertical connector on the drawbar is about 1/8 inch above the center rail; will keep an eye on it.  The sand dome cover comes off easy to get at the switches, no screwdriver necessary.  On the locomotive, there is a switch for run/pgm, stack, whistle, pop off and one on the tender for smoke.  The pop off cover comes off easily by gently picking the gold valves.  The smoke fill tool box for the tender is not so easy to take off - needed the small blade of  screwdriver.  The locomotive cannot be pushed manually to move it, the wheels will not turn, you can gently lift it and then move it.  You have to use the included funnel to add fluid to the pop off and tender unless you have a mighty fine dropper.  The coal in the tender is firmly stuck in place.  One last thing, I thought I saw somewhere that it comes with 4 spare tires - only 2 in my box - no worries.

Happy Camper

Trainworld doesn't mess around when you ask them to double box it.

Headin off to perdition.

Regarding the drawbar. I placed the engine on its side and placed a pencil between the drawbar and frame as close to the wires connected to it as possible. Then just pushed up at the end. For the tender I just lifted it slightly so the optical devices lined up. They both bend easily. With the drawbars connected they are virtually horizontal, level with the track, not drooping down.

Pete

MartyE posted:

D&H 65 posted:

Just so all the cards are on the table, I returned my Niagara this past Monday to Lionel to have the stack-smoke unit looked at. It worked flawlessly for the first 30 minutes and then it had what I call a "step-change" in operation. before my issue, I had all three levels of smoke production; after that initial 30 minutes, mine would only produce an amount of smoke I liken to "LOW' being selected on my Cab-2.

My other issue for return was the "tender pressure relief" smoke system would not trigger the smoke function reliably; the "sound" portion always works, but smoke production was random at best. WHEN it worked, it would smoke like all the videos on here show; mine either smoked or didn't smoke even though the sound ALWAYS worked, so I have to say the "Command" was received by the tender smoke control board. I'm waiting to see what Lionel finds out.

And yes, I id use JT's Mega-Steam fluid initially as that's what I had. "Katie" @Lionel Service was the individual who passed on Lionel's policy of not warranting smoke units with JT's in them; they did make an exception this one time.

Several years ago I asked about the warranty question directly to "Talk to Us" and the reply was the same as Katie told you.

Thats like Ford saying they won't warranty your motor because you didn't use Motorcraft oil and filters for your oil changes. Total BS

Just a scape goat to get out of paying to fix their own crappy product.

PJB posted:

Anyone have any recs on where to buy a large size of Lionel non-scented smoke fluid for a good price?  

Mike Reagan sells unscented for $60 a quart. It sounds high, but thats a much better deal ( nearly half price) than the $7 or so for Lionels 2oz bottles.

You can email Mike at Trainworx: mreagan@twtrainworx.com

Can the smoke deflectors be removed on these?

Lionel 6-37841 premium smoke fluid  CAN NOT BE PURCHASED on Lionel's website

I am impressed by the financial success of all you folks that can afford a locomotive that costs approximately $2,000. 

The most I ever paid was $750 for my Postwar Lionel Brunswick Green 5 stripe GG1 that I love. After I bought it, I said to myself, "OMG, I just spent $750 for a toy!" LOL, Arnold 

jeremy ferrell posted:

Can the smoke deflectors be removed on these?

In my world there’s a cold Sam Adams winter lager & a vision niagara for everyone. I like your signature. I had to modify it for me... an east coast guy! 

Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:

jeremy ferrell posted:

Can the smoke deflectors be removed on these?

In my world there’s a cold Sam Adams winter lager & a vision niagara for everyone. I like your signature. I had to modify it for me... an east coast guy! 

AlanRail posted:

So my Niagara arrived.  AND I said a little prayer to the train-fairy before I opened the box. 

However, sometimes your prayers go unanswered or the answer is no. 

I found a small piece of black plastic that looks like it broke off from somewhere in the wrappings AND a small, about 3 inches, length of  the handrail on one side looks like someone at the factory repainted by hand but poorly as it is lumpy black.

I will start it up this weekend and re-pray.

Could the broken off piece be what looks like a car exhaust pipe on the left bottom side of the cab extending rearward past the cab?  See my pic.  Didn't notice it till my fingers brushed it while handling the loco. 

jeremy ferrell posted:

Can the smoke deflectors be removed on these?

Yes, It shares most of the parts with the Century Club version so you can go to Lionel's parts site and get an idea whats what. The Vision version hasn't been posted yet.

Pete

AlanRail posted:

So my Niagara arrived.  AND I said a little prayer to the train-fairy before I opened the box. 

However, sometimes your prayers go unanswered or the answer is no. 

I found a small piece of black plastic that looks like it broke off from somewhere in the wrappings AND a small, about 3 inches, length of  the handrail on one side looks like someone at the factory repainted by hand but poorly as it is lumpy black.

I will start it up this weekend and re-pray.

In my world, I quit praying to the train fairy because he/she/it hasn’t answered the phone in years. Probably gone over to the dark side (HO). Better just to have a drink.

I do however feel “blessed” that my #6001 arrived with no cosmetic or operating issues. But it was my turn to be lucky or I was overdue for a bout of luck. 

It does give me pause that a bodged factory repaint job is evident in your case. Sheesh, when is this kind of stuff going to stop?

The traction tire on my Niagara #6013 was off when I received the sealed engine.  After bending the brake shoe away from the driver wheel, I was able to install the traction tire.  It ran less than two hours and slammed my Niagara to a stop.  The engine would not move.

Having few options because of its location in a far corner of the layout, I tried to rock the engine forward and backward.  After three minutes the engine began to jerk down the track.  I backed the engine up and the Niagara dropped the cut traction tire on the track roadbed. 

I am glad the new "Wiha" screw drivers arrived so I can remove the Phillips screws holding the drive rods.  I will replace the traction tire, but not every two hours I hope.  I will have to check with Lionel Service about this.  They still have my two Vision Line GG1s that have gear problems.  Evidently one VL GG1 that never worked correctly cannot be repaired (for the third time), so I have been offered a replacement from a choice of similarly priced engines.  My CSX F40PH just returned mid week and I will check the smoke fan this afternoon. 

Lionel also informed me that the Allegheny #1604 they did not fix the first time, is now out-of-warranty and they will not bring it in for service.  My other Allegheny #1608 arrived with damage linkage rods and my money was refunded by the dealer a year-and-a-half ago.

Model Railroading is fun.

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

RickM46 posted:

Ordered my Vision Line last Saturday night from TrainWorld and it showed up today by FedEx.  I asked TW to double box it and they did including a lot of packing - cudos to those people, they know how to ship trains; you can see the attached pictures.  No damage to the boxes.  Hats off to TW.

Out of the box, there were no issues with the finish or mechanics or electronics - everything works using the CAB2 remote.  Including the orange memory module was a nice touch.  On this unit, Lionel got everything right.  Since I am running it with a CW80 transformer, I only run one smoke unit at a time - don't want to do anything to mess up a smoke unit - you all know I am the destroyer of smoke units.  For now, I only have an 8 foot test track so no long runs.

Some additional observations: The vertical connector on the drawbar is about 1/8 inch above the center rail; will keep an eye on it.  The sand dome cover comes off easy to get at the switches, no screwdriver necessary.  On the locomotive, there is a switch for run/pgm, stack, whistle, pop off and one on the tender for smoke.  The pop off cover comes off easily by gently picking the gold valves.  The smoke fill tool box for the tender is not so easy to take off - needed the small blade of  screwdriver.  The locomotive cannot be pushed manually to move it, the wheels will not turn, you can gently lift it and then move it.  You have to use the included funnel to add fluid to the pop off and tender unless you have a mighty fine dropper.  The coal in the tender is firmly stuck in place.  One last thing, I thought I saw somewhere that it comes with 4 spare tires - only 2 in my box - no worries.

Happy Camper

Trainworld doesn't mess around when you ask them to double box it.

Headin off to perdition.

Wait wow Lionel sent a orange engine Memory Module?! I thought they discontinued those! 

Norton posted:

Regarding the drawbar. I placed the engine on its side and placed a pencil between the drawbar and frame as close to the wires connected to it as possible. Then just pushed up at the end. For the tender I just lifted it slightly so the optical devices lined up. They both bend easily. With the drawbars connected they are virtually horizontal, level with the track, not drooping down.

Pete

Norton, can you show a pic on the placement of the pencil?  Did you then push up on the end of the pencil?  Thanks.

zhubl posted:

Including the orange memory module was a nice touch. 

 

Wait wow Lionel sent a orange engine Memory Module?! I thought they discontinued those! 

Maybe you have to join the VL crowd to get it or maybe???

RickM46 posted:

zhubl posted:

Including the orange memory module was a nice touch.

Wait wow Lionel sent a orange engine Memory Module?! I thought they discontinued those! 

Maybe you have to join the VL crowd to get it or maybe???

I can't remember whether at one stage Lionel said that the orange module would only be included with VL engines. But in this case, the code to access the various smoke features and especially the water pickup (a.k.a. the "booster rockets" as they are called in my house) might be different from other engines. However I always thought that the module didn't have any function that you could not duplicate by entering info in the CAB2 remote yourself and the Niagara's manual suggests that is still the case. 

So go figure . . .

Hancock52 posted:

RickM46 posted:

zhubl posted:

Including the orange memory module was a nice touch.

Wait wow Lionel sent a orange engine Memory Module?! I thought they discontinued those! 

Maybe you have to join the VL crowd to get it or maybe???

I can't remember whether at one stage Lionel said that the orange module would only be included with VL engines. But in this case, the code to access the various smoke features and especially the water pickup (a.k.a. the "booster rockets" as they are called in my house) might be different from other engines. However I always thought that the module didn't have any function that you could not duplicate by entering info in the CAB2 remote yourself and the Niagara's manual suggests that is still the case. 

So go figure . . .

Interesting. I’ve used the sensor track that came with the VL Big Boy for a couple of things. I guess we’ll have to wait and see when the new challenger comes out. 

Decided to lubricate the locomotive and tender.  All axles and running gear were dry.  Also, took off the gear case cover and saw that the drive gear was dry - no lube at all.  I used Red and Tacky to lube it.  There are no grease ports on this model.  The owner's manual makes no reference to adding grease to the drive gear; but, I greased it anyway. Did a test run, no issues; no worries.

Great to hear the box came in good shape Rick!

I have heard the same issue about smoke fluid on G scale manufacturers as well. 

Were putting together a video for the Niagara so hear are some clips.  I must say this has to be the coolest engine ever.  The water scoop effect is amazing. 

Norton posted:

jeremy ferrell posted:

Can the smoke deflectors be removed on these?

Yes, It shares most of the parts with the Century Club version so you can go to Lionel's parts site and get an idea whats what. The Vision version hasn't been posted yet.

Pete

Found this page at Lionel parts on the Century Club version:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...55-8273-459eba514c2a

KenJrTW posted:

Great to hear the box came in good shape Rick!

I have heard the same issue about smoke fluid on G scale manufacturers as well. 

Were putting together a video for the Niagara so hear are some clips.  I must say this has to be the coolest engine ever.  The water scoop effect is amazing. 

 

Ken, as I said in my post above, you guys do good work, thanks a bunch!!

Just received mine today. Finished oiling up all the lubrication points and added the smoke. Let smoke juice settle in for a half an hour. Fired it up, ran it a little.  It is very nice, beautiful engine great sounds great Whistle.  Not a big fan of gray engines, but this is really nice color.  A set of matching passenger cars, 21 inch would finish it nicely.

I noticed:

a stationary bell underneath the pilot (nice)

opening doors on front of tender

opening smokebox doors in cab

are there any other features that were not advertised or mentioned in the instructions?

D&H 65 posted:

Just so all the cards are on the table, I returned my Niagara this past Monday to Lionel to have the stack-smoke unit looked at. It worked flawlessly for the first 30 minutes and then it had what I call a "step-change" in operation. before my issue, I had all three levels of smoke production; after that initial 30 minutes, mine would only produce an amount of smoke I liken to "LOW' being selected on my Cab-2.

My other issue for return was the "tender pressure relief" smoke system would not trigger the smoke function reliably; the "sound" portion always works, but smoke production was random at best. WHEN it worked, it would smoke like all the videos on here show; mine either smoked or didn't smoke even though the sound ALWAYS worked, so I have to say the "Command" was received by the tender smoke control board. I'm waiting to see what Lionel finds out.

And yes, I id use JT's Mega-Steam fluid initially as that's what I had. "Katie" @Lionel Service was the individual who passed on Lionel's policy of not warranting smoke units with JT's in them; they did make an exception this one time.

D&H, Please keep us posted on the tender smoke issue. I ran mine for about 4 hours yesterday and discovered the same issue. I also noticed if you trigger the smoke just as you start the locomotive it works pretty much every time. Once you let go and retrigger, no smoke just sound. 

MartyE posted:

Super O Bob posted:

Norton 

After reading that Megastream is not recommended...

Pete

 

Omg.  My 6013 arrives today.  Can you please elaborate?  I need no smell smoke fluid...  so i use NADA by megasteam.  

Why cant i use megasteam?

Lionel recommends, not surprisingly, to use their premium smoke fluid.  They say it is non conductive and their smoke unit optimized for their fluid if you want to believe that. 

They also in many case will not repair units under warranty if you use other smoke fluids.  I use Lionel until the warranty passes.  Then I use whatever but have typically remained with the Lionel fluid.  They do make an unscented.

You can read Mike Reagan's thoughts on this here.

I had used Jt’s until the first run of S3’s came out.  I could never get it to smoke very well through the cylinder cocks.   Called and  talked to mike regan he told we to switch over to the lionel premium and I noticed a huge difference.   I’ve never looked back since and I’ve also had this same scenario communicated from several other members.   Jt’s smoke seems great out the stack.   I can’t say it’s any better than the lionel but lionel for sure seems to play better with the smoke features.   In my experience.    

I think I over filled my smoke fluid.  With switches on, the engine shorts as soon as I start it ion the CAB 2 control.  Turn switches off, it starts and runs fine.  When the engine comes around, I turn the smoke switches on without stopping the train.  Smoke works fine at that point.  Only have the problem if I turn the engine off/on with the remote.  I am giving it a couple of days to see if it clears up.  Ever happen to you?   If it does not solve itself, I will send it in.

A big box arrived here today. Not had time to check it and also the youngest is on half term break from school. So had to sneak it through the house and hide it for.

Big thanks to Chris and Charlie at Nassau Hobby.

Nick

Nick12DMC posted:

A big box arrived here today. Not had time to check it and also the youngest is on half term break from school. So had to sneak it through the house and hide it for.

Big thanks to Chris and Charlie at Nassau Hobby.

Nick

Nick, congrats!! You are going to love it; are you going to inspect it before Christmas??

Mine runs great!  Thanks Lionel!

I assume the water pan feature is activated separately from the normal smoke command? Is that correct?

NYC Fan posted:

I assume the water pan feature is activated separately from the normal smoke command? Is that correct?

Yes. It's activated with the #3 key when moving. 

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

I think I over filled my smoke fluid.  With switches on, the engine shorts as soon as I start it ion the CAB 2 control.  Turn switches off, it starts and runs fine.  When the engine comes around, I turn the smoke switches on without stopping the train.  Smoke works fine at that point.  Only have the problem if I turn the engine off/on with the remote.  I am giving it a couple of days to see if it clears up.  Ever happen to you?   If it does not solve itself, I will send it in.

Bryant, what brand smoke fluid did you use?  How many drops did you use?

There are some unconventional methods for handling errant smoke units on this forum if you search; a few that I remember: gently blow down the fill holes; turn the loco upside down overnight in the hopes of draining the overfill (but, if there is an intervening funnel with chambers as I suspect on the Niagara, may be ineffective).  Maybe some other members can chime in.

RickM46 posted:

Nick12DMC posted:

A big box arrived here today. Not had time to check it and also the youngest is on half term break from school. So had to sneak it through the house and hide it for.

Big thanks to Chris and Charlie at Nassau Hobby.

Nick

Nick, congrats!! You are going to love it; are you going to inspect it before Christmas??

Oh yes, I will inspect/test before wrapping it up. Mason picked it from the catalogue back in the spring. That’s what he asked Santa for.

Worked a fair bit of overtime to make it happen.

Nick

RickM46 posted:

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

I think I over filled my smoke fluid.  With switches on, the engine shorts as soon as I start it ion the CAB 2 control.  Turn switches off, it starts and runs fine.  When the engine comes around, I turn the smoke switches on without stopping the train.  Smoke works fine at that point.  Only have the problem if I turn the engine off/on with the remote.  I am giving it a couple of days to see if it clears up.  Ever happen to you?   If it does not solve itself, I will send it in.

Bryant, what brand smoke fluid did you use?  How many drops did you use?

There are some unconventional methods for handling errant smoke units on this forum if you search; a few that I remember: gently blow down the fill holes; turn the loco upside down overnight in the hopes of draining the overfill (but, if there is an intervening funnel with chambers as I suspect on the Niagara, may be ineffective).  Maybe some other members can chime in.

Lionel Premium of coarse.  I don't think it is a case of overfilling.  I put no more than 14 drops in and ran perfectly.  Even had smoke from the water scoops.  Fast forward about 30 minutes.  I am running a couple locomotives and I hear an electronic pop on the other side of the layout.  Red light on transformer goes on.  If I turn smoke switches off and reset transformer, no problem.  If I flip the switches on the loco as it is running, smoke units come alive.  Shut completely off and turn on, same issue (red light).  I am going to send it back for repair and a good thorough check up.  The scoops aren't consistent either.  I will have them check it out.

That’s a pity about the short. I hope it’s only a board replacement (I don’t think that they can be reprogrammed once scrambled and if it’s got physical damage they’ll just put a new one in).

I found out a while back that smoke fluid is NOT conductive and so it won’t short a board itself but it can certainly gum up fan motors and I suppose might affect the operating temp of a board.

The smoke fluid has no contact with your fan motor.    I am a Mega Steam user and see no reason to change.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

The smoke fluid has no contact with your fan motor.    I am a Mega Steam user and see no reason to change.

Mike's gonna' get you for that Marty.

Hancock52 posted:

That’s a pity about the short. I hope it’s only a board replacement (I don’t think that they can be reprogrammed once scrambled and if it’s got physical damage they’ll just put a new one in).

I found out a while back that smoke fluid is NOT conductive and so it won’t short a board itself but it can certainly gum up fan motors and I suppose might affect the operating temp of a board.

I think I finally got caught in the numbers.  It is the 1st  of about 20 that I have purchased that requires me to send in.  I consider myself lucky.

The bummer is that this is hands down my favorite engine.  The gray has the looks and it runs like a finely tuned watch.  Whistle and horn really are unique.

You know, I'm glad you said that about the fluid.  I have a Visionline Big Boy and the Allegheny Legacy.  They don't say "They will void warranty".  They say that they recommend Lionel Premium fluid.  I caught the Mega-Steam Kool-Aid at York.  I plan to use it in some other engines to test results.  If fine, I will try it out.

How does the new feature of engine sensing amount of load pulled and engine sounds adjust accordingly work?

Paul Kallus posted:

How does the new feature of engine sensing amount of load pulled and engine sounds adjust accordingly work?

Paul - if you're asking how well it works, on my unit, per my post on this a couple weeks back, it works great. I backed it up a little too far on my 7' test track and the back-most wheels on my tender went off the test track, putting the tender on a slight angle so that the back was lower.  Didn't notice this and tried to move the train forward and the need to pull hard made it immediately make some awesomely deep chuffing sounds and maybe even smoked more deeply?  

Paul Kallus posted:

How does the new feature of engine sensing amount of load pulled and engine sounds adjust accordingly work?

In terms of how it's meant to work, I can't improve on the VL Niagara manual and especially the reference to the "crunch" feature described on the left below:

To be honest, I wasn't persuaded to get this engine by anything to do with the "force coupler" function and I see from the text that when on (by default) it overrides any manual EFX settings, which I think is a little inconvenient. What tipped me over the edge was seeing videos of the loco smoke features; the "booster rockets" on the tender are a bonus.

Still, I can say that the engine responds as it should to increases in load (as from going up a slight grade) but I have not heard a "crunch" yet. 

From reading this paragraph, I can see why you wouldn't hear the "crunch" unless you did an operation where you got a sudden spike in force to the coupler.

It takes a good amount of force from speed or a heavy load to create such a loud "bang"!

Got my 6005 yesterday. Ran it for about 15 minutes. Was really loud and sounded like noisy gear. Took of the gear housing and it wasn't bone dry, but pretty close. I filled it full of Red n' Tacky grease from Home Depot. It quieted it right down. Has any one else checked to see if theirs had dry gears?

Tom 4 posted:

Got my 6005 yesterday. Ran it for about 15 minutes. Was really loud and sounded like noisy gear. Took of the gear housing and it wasn't bone dry, but pretty close. I filled it full of Red n' Tacky grease from Home Depot. It quieted it right down. Has any one else checked to see if theirs had dry gears?

The Big Boys were the same.  Makes you wonder what a little more grease would hurt and how much grief in the long run it would save.

I lubed the Niagara drive gear with Red and Tacky because it was stone dry (however the drive gear was completely silent); took a look at this video https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ew-vl-niagara?page=1 and the picture; so if we are not supposed to lube it, I would like to know if RnT should be removed.

RickM46 posted:

I lubed the Niagara drive gear with Red and Tacky because it was stone dry (however the drive gear was completely silent); took a look at this video https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ew-vl-niagara?page=1 and the picture; so if we are not supposed to lube it, I would like to know if RnT should be removed.

 

 

You got an answer from AlexM over on the “Look Inside” thread and on the question of whether to lube or not what he says (do lube) is good enough for me. The only real issue is, with what and how much? 

In the video on that thread and the picture above, the gear is shown fairly liberally lubed with what looks like white lithium (synthetic) grease. Not sure if this is what Lionel supplies or recommends; I doubt it because the gear grease I have seen from them is decribed as containing petroleum distillates and looks more like Vasoline than anything else.

Anyway, with my VL BB, the corresponding gears were dry when I checked them and I used MTH grease on them because that’s what I had on hand. I made sure that the gear teeth and axle were coated but did not overdo the amount of gresae applied. MTH grease looks exactly like RnT to me and it has not caused any operational issues with the BB. In your position I would not try removing the RnT to substitute something else.

I believe Alex used Labelle teflon grease. Its plastic safe. Frankly I doubt either grease will hurt anything. 

I have to smile. On the motorcycle forums I am on there are the never ending oil threads. Here its the grease thread. Manufacturers have been using steel, brass, bronze, nylon, delrin gears for decades. Worse case the grease dries up and you have to clean it out and replace it.

Pete

Saw Alex M's response on lubing the Niagara gear and thanked him for the quick response.  As mentioned above, his response is good enough for me and I will keep the RnT on my drive gear.  Have used it on the drive gears of all the rest of my Legacy engines.  Maybe the Niagara doesn't have grease ports since they were not on the original Niagaras.

Norton posted:

I believe Alex used Labelle teflon grease. Its plastic safe. Frankly I doubt either grease will hurt anything. 

I have to smile. On the motorcycle forums I am on there are the never ending oil threads. Here its the grease thread. Manufacturers have been using steel, brass, bronze, nylon, delrin gears for decades. Worse case the grease dries up and you have to clean it out and replace it.

Pete

Thanks for that info on the Labelle product, much appreciated (as always). 

Your last comment reminds me that there was/is an issue over the lubricant used by Lionel in the die-cast ES44AC diesels (including the two VL models). After a certain period of an engine being shelved/stored it hardened to the point that the motor could not turn the wheels. After someone on this Forum put me on to this problem I took the trucks off my CP Evo engine, excavated the remaining fragments of the stuff and replaced it with MTH grease. No issue since even though the engine doesn't get much run time. 

I have one quirky thing that is going on with my Niagara and don't know if any one else has had this issue. I run all my Lionel engines with Legacy. About a 3rd of the time when I put power to the track, the Niagara starts up like it is conventional and acting like it is not receiving the Legacy signal. This seems to be totally random, and it happens on all 4 of my tracks.

Any one else having this issue?

Hancock52 posted:

Norton posted:

I believe Alex used Labelle teflon grease. Its plastic safe. Frankly I doubt either grease will hurt anything. 

I have to smile. On the motorcycle forums I am on there are the never ending oil threads. Here its the grease thread. Manufacturers have been using steel, brass, bronze, nylon, delrin gears for decades. Worse case the grease dries up and you have to clean it out and replace it.

Pete

Thanks for that info on the Labelle product, much appreciated (as always). 

Your last comment reminds me that there was/is an issue over the lubricant used by Lionel in the die-cast ES44AC diesels (including the two VL models). After a certain period of an engine being shelved/stored it hardened to the point that the motor could not turn the wheels. After someone on this Forum put me on to this problem I took the trucks off my CP Evo engine, excavated the remaining fragments of the stuff and replaced it with MTH grease. No issue since even though the engine doesn't get much run time. 

Hancock,  Do the ES44 trucks twist off like the Lion Drive trucks?

NYC Z-MAN posted

“Do the ES44 trucks twist off like the Lion Drive trucks?

Yes, on mine (the die cast VL version) they do. Requires some effort or more than you might think safe. I wasn’t aware of how to remove them until I posted the issue on this Forum.

Finally got to run mine today.  Lionel did a great job on this engine!  Here is a quick video I took of it but the video does not do it justice!

Jeffrey

While running my Niagara #6013 with the smoke off, if I turn the smoke on while running the engine, the breaker on my ZW-L transformer pops.  I am running my VL Big Boy #4014 without smoke along with this new Niagara. Isn't Lionel's biggest ZW-L transformer enough to handle two Vision Line engines?

Do I have a smoke issue developing on the Niagara?  I have three hours of run-time on my engine.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I have two Niagara's, 6005 and 6013. I run my layout with a MTH Z4000. The Z4000 has an digital amp meter. When I turn on the smoke (locomotive stationary or running) the amp meter spikes about 5 to 5.5 amps above what it just was for a few seconds, then settles down to about .5 amps higher than with the smoke unit off. Both Niagara's do this. With a couple of trains already running (drawing about 5 amps) and turning on one of the Niagara's smoke units, I see 11+ amps for a few seconds, then it settles back to (in this case) 5.5 amps. The Z4000 seems to handle that momentary load okay.

Interesting observation Jack. That may explain why I am not seeing the smoke output that some here are posting. My little LW may not be up to the task. Also makes sense that they would be giving tender overflow and steam blow off an extra jolt to get them to full output in a short time.

Pete

Jack Morey posted:

I have two Niagara's, 6005 and 6013. I run my layout with a MTH Z4000. The Z4000 has an digital amp meter. When I turn on the smoke (locomotive stationary or running) the amp meter spikes about 5 to 5.5 amps above what it just was for a few seconds, then settles down to about .5 amps higher than with the smoke unit off. Both Niagara's do this. With a couple of trains already running (drawing about 5 amps) and turning on one of the Niagara's smoke units, I see 11+ amps for a few seconds, then it settles back to (in this case) 5.5 amps. The Z4000 seems to handle that momentary load okay.

Hey, I think this video by Mike Reagan may explain what is happening. If you fast forward it to about the 18 minute mark (17:58, to be exact), Mike explains that, upon initial startup of the smoke unit, the power is really high just to get the unit going, and then drops down to a normal operating smoke level (low, medium, high).

Ran into a similar situation while trying to run my Legacy Pocahontas with a Lionel CW80 with smoke unit on and lighted passenger cars.  My smoke unit began flashing an error blink in the cab; solved by removing the lighted cars.  Later, I added the ZWL with no issues.  Since I only had a CW80 available when the Niagara arrived, I have only been running one smoke unit at a time and no cars.

Watched the video; great reminder of how smoke units are regulated.

Tom 4 posted:

I have one quirky thing that is going on with my Niagara and don't know if any one else has had this issue. I run all my Lionel engines with Legacy. About a 3rd of the time when I put power to the track, the Niagara starts up like it is conventional and acting like it is not receiving the Legacy signal. This seems to be totally random, and it happens on all 4 of my tracks.

Any one else having this issue?

Any ideas from the forum for Tom??

Regarding the spike in amps that Jack saw on his Z4000, with my ZWL while starting up a Big Boy or any other legacy, there is always an immediate increase from 2amps to 4.x amps for a few seconds and then it drops back to 2.

RickM46 posted:

Tom 4 posted:

I have one quirky thing that is going on with my Niagara and don't know if any one else has had this issue. I run all my Lionel engines with Legacy. About a 3rd of the time when I put power to the track, the Niagara starts up like it is conventional and acting like it is not receiving the Legacy signal. This seems to be totally random, and it happens on all 4 of my tracks.

Any one else having this issue?

Any ideas from the forum for Tom??

Regarding the spike in amps that Jack saw on his Z4000, with my ZWL while starting up a Big Boy or any other legacy, there is always an immediate increase from 2amps to 4.x amps for a few seconds and then it drops back to 2.

Sounds like there’s a dead short somewhere. Like it has been stated there should be a start up increase if amp draw but then it should settle back down. Maybe try each unit individually to see if each one word on its own. Watch the amp meter on the ZW-L to see if it goes crazy. If there is a short in the unit I have found that the element could be slightly touching the side of the  reservoir. 

Is the tip of the drawbar touching the middle rail?  Saw this in a post.  Saw in some post where a strange type of tape was applied to the tip insulating it from the middle rail; also Norton mentioned in this post using a pencil as leverage to bend the drawbar up a bit and bend the tender bar up a bit to match the drawbar optical device.  The tip on mine is about 1/8" above the middle rail.

Drawbar hitting the middle rail doesn't sound great. My conventional Mohawk 3001 did that with the rear coupler several years back and that wasn't pleasant. I think that was impart to the big load of cars I had behind it. VL engines shouldn't be having drawbars hitting the third rail, heck, shouldn't have anything crazy like that.