Lionel vs. MTH Santa Fe Set

The Fastrack and the CW-80 should not pose any problem.  I've run MTH PS3 with that combination of track and transformer, no problems.

Any worries about the reliability/durability of the PS3 system?  I've been following the thread about PS2 cannibalizations and it has made me a bit wary.

I would research the transformer compatability further. I had a Ps2 loco that would NOT operate with a CW80, it sat idle on the track. If the Cw 80 is able to "run it", its possible it may not activate the whistle or bell.

MTH usually lists compatable transformers in the owners manual, the CW80 was not on that list.

Lee didn't you have some sort of a problem with your PS3 loco shortly after you started running it? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I would sell your CW-80 while it still works! Especially if it is not making the loud fan noise. I would use the Z transformer(and remote) that comes with the set. If you need a transformer for your layout, I would look into a z750 or z1000, both of which are superior to Lionel's CW-80(although the CW-80 looks cooler and I love the lever vs the dial/knob for power control).

I once had 4 engines all with smoke units on high(2 of which were double motor engines) all running on one Z-1000

My uncle was over and said we should video it and try to sell to MTH so they could use it as an advertisement for their Z-1000 transformer!

If you can afford the extra money, the MTH rtr sets are much better than Lionels. Of course, this is just my humble opinion(and the opinion all my children's friends at age 4-7). The problem is having to fork over the 50%+ extra cost as compared to Lionel. But personally, I would rather have less stuff with more of the extras(sound, speed control, smoke etc), than a lot of stuff with few extras.

I would not use the CW-80, it is not on the approved list, and it is lower power anyway.

And for me, the $50 to $70 extra is well worth the command control ability.

And comparing the Prices of starter sets is apples VS Oranges.

MTH puts Command Control in almost all the engines. Naturally they cost a bit more.

I note that there is a Loco Sounds Steam engine starter set in the 2012 RTR MTH catalog for MSRP of #329.95

This is similar to Lionel's prices.

The MTH F3 RTR does NOT have smoke. PS3 shouldn't give you any issue, it is a fine set. I've got the PS2 version of that engine, that came in the B&O Freight RTR set circa 2004 that has 4000+ trouble free miles on it. Great little engine. 

I've got over a dozen PS2 and PS3 engines, some new, some old, with many well over 2K+ miles all with no issues. Great engines, MTH makes a great product and that is all I use on my layout. 

MTH offers better expansion chances with the DCS set, track, cars, etc. I think MTH also gives better transformers in their RTR sets. Very good quality items in them. 

My CW-80 is only a few months old -- got it with the NJ Transit Work Train starter set.

It replaced a Powermax that was making the loud fan whir, from an old 2008 Pennsylvania Flyer set that I bought used, to start my son and I out.

The Powermax still works but it has been mothballed.

The cost difference is actually in favor of MTH here - I was looking at the trains at MB Kleins (it's actually a LHS to me, being only 20 miles or so away) and they have the Lionel at $289 and the MTH PS3 at $269. 

It DID say on the box that the MTH is supposed to smoke.  My son is 2.5 and we like the smoking engines, houses, etc. that we have.

I'm not a fanboy of either, but I do have a significant Lionel investment in track and rolling stock (even though our layout is small) hence, that's why I wanted to make sure I wasn't getting something that wouldn't work with what we already have.

The remote control is kind of neat that the MTH comes with, but I like the Lionel passenger cars better -- the yellow and red striping down the train is more dramatic than plain aluminum.

I'd go for the MTH set; when it comes to starter sets MTH's are way ahead of the others in terms of build quality and features offered and all of rolling stock is compatible with what you have. With PS3 you have the groundwork for expansion if you ever wanted to get MTH's DCS System. 

Mathew

I personally would go with the MTH set because speed control is really nice to have. Its also cheaper and I like that the MTH motors have flywheels. The Z500 also can take a good load in my experience, I ran a Proto 2 CSX F40 with 8 lighted polar express cars and a polar express reefer with no trouble. You can also use the Z500 as an aux power supply in the future if you get DCS. I actually want one myself now after looking at it 

There are also other benefits to the MTH such as:

Start up and shutdown sounds.

Sounds stay on during direction change with no battery.

The engine has L.E.D lighting.

Automatic couplers with the remote included.

Full command in the engine with speed control and a remote included.

The motors have flywheels.

Liam, it is hard to argue with someone whose name is the same as my youngest son, 2 weeks old, LOL.

Does anyone know for sure if the MTH sets actually smoke or not?

This one claims to smoke but others on here have said the PS3 starter sets do not.

Having the remote in hand for your kids is a huge benefit.  It's a simple introduction into DCS workings without going full blown DCS.  I have a 2 and 6 year old, bought the 6 year old the first MTH set when he was two.

I have had Lionel in the past and did a lot of research before I bought.  MTH has much more bang for the buck and is well built.  Red stripes can be added easily.  Quite frankly I steer anyone with young kids away from Lionel as their RTR sets leave much to be desired, both with features and quality.

This is not Fanboyism, it's reality coming from someone in the same boat as you.  Lionel makes some fine products, just not in this category.

MBC, as for opinions, that's what was asked for and what was received.  Your post doesn't help him at all, he wanted feedback.  How saying everyone who picks MTH is a fanboy is of no use and hardly accurate.  If the all said Lionel would they again be fanboys in your estimation?

As I stated in my original post, before another poster went off the deep end, the F3 MTH RTR set engine does not have smoke and that is coming from someone who owns the same engine, albeit an older one. There is NO room in there to put smoke. Likely what MTH did was "copy and paste" the wording on the stickers and website from other sets which do have smoke. They are great little engines, the Santa Fe has a rather glossy finish which I think adds to it. A few years ago, MTH did a Scale Chrome Plated Santa Fe F3 set...THAT was a thing of beauty, and I don't even like the Santa Fe. 

According to MTH, no smoke:

http://mthtrains.com/content/30-4222-1

However, this RTR diesel set does:

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com...-p/mth-30-4219-1.htm

Also, the SD70ACE while Railking is a imperial model with scale details.  They are very nice engines.

Having had the PS2 Santa Fe RK set a few years ago, I would heartily concur that the MTH is the better choice based on VALUE. The PS3 electronics should give you much more enjoyment right off and down the road than the Lionel with out it. Just my opinion...

When it comes to starter sets MTH has it all over everyone else out there. Lionel sets just cant compare with quality and options.

The CW80 transformer is ok, but the Z1000 is a far better power source.

As for the track system the Lionel Fast Track is hands down the best starter set system on the market. I know Real Track has it's good points but you cant beat Fast Track for putting up and taking down and having it work time after time.

The CW80 transformer is ok, but the Z1000 is a far better power source.

As far as the Z-1000 being the better transformer that is a matter of opinion, I personally prefer the CW-80.

 In comparing the sets the OP is talking about, the CW-80/Z-1000 debate is ir-relevant, this MTH set DOES NOT include the Z-1000, it comes with the Z-500, a lot less transformer, without any accessory output at all.

Doug

I purchased the MTH Santa Fe set about a month and a half ago and I am totally satisfied with it.

The reason I went with the MTH set (and this might be wrong) is because the MTH engine can be controlled remotely and the speed is remotely controlled.  I bought my grandson a Lionel set for Christmas and that engine is transformer controlled.  The Lionel Santa Fe set is also listed as transformer controlled.  I interpret that to mean that engine speed is controlled by the amount of voltage that is applied to the track.  The MTH set has constant voltage to the track and the remote controls how much the engine sees.  The MTH engine is full DCS ready whereas I'm not sure about the Lionel engine (I think the equivalent to DCS is Legacy or TMCC).  If my understanding of transformer controlled is not correct, I would appreciate if someone would let me know.

I do prefer by grandson's Fastrack to MTH's Realtrax though.

Steve

No comparison, the MTH starter sets are far superior to Lionel's starter sets.

I have had the MTH RailKing Scale Santa Fe starter set from a couple of years ago and the lead A unit does have smoke. Mine is the "chrome" set which still is stunning looking today. I have the matching dummy A unit and extra passenger cars, added people to the cars and observation, really looks good running on the track. So if the new PS-3 has smoke or not I'd check with MTH to see what they say is correct, it could come either way.

The CW-80 transformer is NOT on the list of MTH recommended power sources.  Use it if you care to, but be aware of the possibility of future problems.

I never had any problem running any of my PS1, 2, or 3 locos on a CW-80 in conventional with the CW-80 throttles (although it does not have the smooth, linear throttle action/controllability of the Z4K or the ZW-L) and have done it enough that I no longer think about it - but Allan has a point, it's not on the approved list. 

However, I did have problems with the MTH remotes.  I had two from PS3 RTR sets and I hooked one up with a CW-80 to see if it work work and the answer was  "sort of" worked " it would run a train but not well.  This really is no suprise.  On the other hand, doing so for a while did not damage the receiver/controller, remote, or the CW-80: I went back to using the RTR power supplies or a Z4K for a while and hand no problems although one of the receivers just died after about three months of use.  I may have put too much power through it from the Z4000 or something - not sure it was a product flaw.

I have two CW-80's and neither work well with my PS 2 engines. Having both TMCC and PS 2 engines, I haven't used either in over 3 yrs.

I really dislike the look of the control box on the z-series transformers but they work like a champ for anything you buy.

If someone offered me a z-500(mth's lowest level transformer) or a CW-80, I would take the z-500 without a thought.

There is a reason you see CW-80 for sale on the forum for $25 and Z-1000 are always $50-80. It certainly isn't looks!

Paul; That is a Very Special run of engines. I wish I had a set, my sister would love them. Since they had smoke it is possible that the new one also does, I would check with MTH to be sure.

Lee;

the DCSRC has a 50 watt limit, more will smoke it.

That is why it comes with a Z500 brick.

They had to trim something to keep the price in reality while offering Command Control in a starter set.

The thing that got trimmed was Watts. 

The starter set by itself or even with a couple add-on cars will never pull over 50 watts. So it's a working solution.

I used one to run my 2-8-0 smoking with a heavy 8 car consist including 2 operating cars for the Christmas Layout. It ran daily for well over a month and never had any trouble.

Didn’t MTH stop shipping Z-1000’s in their starter sets in favor of 500’s?

Edit: Oops, never mind. I see somebody mentioned this up above.

The set Paul posted (the chrome Santa Fe) is the scale set. The set the original poster is asking about is the Rugged Rails Semi Scale set. Both equally nice, but the Semi Scale set, does not have smoke...I'm sitting about 8 feet away from it (my RR B&O F3 from the RTR set) at the moment. The engine is WAY to small, even with PS3. 

Thanks all for saving me from making an expensive mistake!

I SWEAR the box said "smoking engine" on the set I posted about.  That would have been an unwanted surprise!

Based on the amount of Lionel stuff I have already, it sounds like it would be best for me to go with the Lionel set.

Thanks again!

Does the Lionel F3 smoke?

No, that was what was making the MTH set attractive.  That, and being $20 cheaper than the Lionel set.

I felt the Lionel set was better looking with the imaginative color scheme, but it doesn't smoke and I thought the MTH did.

Given the fact that the MTH sets are all full command capable, I'd have to seriously consider one of those.  I think Lionel is missing the boat by putting out cheap conventional control in these sets, if you expand into command, you end up with an orphan.

How are the motors mounted in the Lionel FT? I am interested in the new CP version, but have heard that the motors are down in the trucks like the older K Line and Lionel plastic truck engines (I have an RS 3 and 44 tonner like this) instead of verticle. I find these type of motors noisy and not very smooth.

Two motors in the FT, one on each truck.  These are quiet and smooth runners.  I have a half-dozen FT passenger sets.

And I just preordered the CP set. 

The set you specifically asked about is the small F-3 and the features on the web site does not show a smoke unit. However there is a Santa Fe RailKing Scale cataloged 30-20158-1 ABA set that both A units have smoke. MSRP $529.95

Features

Here is a RK  Scale Santa Fe passenger set on the For Sale board that has PS2, smoke, and the handsome 16" cars that are very nice and something you can use for many years after you outgrow the 'toy' beginner set. This engine is a clone of the early well-detailed Lionel PostWar and later F3s. Just like the model Paul above is recommending.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/d...nt/14804764756725551

Super deal, especially with the extra coach he is including and free shipping.

Tempting, I must say.  I'd leap all over that if I were in the market for that kind of set!