Lionel Wireless Tethers, All compatible?

I've seen them interchanged and actually work, but I suspect only Lionel could say if all of them have the same protocol.  I've also connected the wired tether from a different (but similar) locomotive's tender and had that work as well.

Pete

 

  I have done it a lot of times, good for identifing whether the problem is engine or tender. Just make sure the I.R. tether aligns.

 

Bill

Thanks guys. I will know for sure when the tender arrives and let you know.

 

Pete

They will work.  The I.R. tether sends the serial data from pin 24 that you send to the R2 or R4 board.  It is transmitted from the loco I.R. transmitter  to the I.R. receiver in the tender and then decoded.  On pre Legacy your serial data goes from the I.R. transmitter  to the I.R. receiver then is decoded at the AD20A decoder in your tender.`This decoder controls your rear light, rear coupler and provides power to the railsounds system. 

In Legacy you go from the I.R. transmitter to your tender I.R. receiver that is connected to your 5.0 or 5.5  Railsounds audio board.  At that point operation for your rear coupler and rear light come from your Railsounds audio board.

 

You can do this with Lionel but do not mix and match DCS locomotives with foreign tenders.  Many times like Bill pointed out, if you are unsure where your problem lies (Lionel only) you can single out a tender problem or a locomotive problem by mixing a tender or locomotive from another loco

 

 

 

 

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Good point Bob.  Older to old and newer to new.  8-8  9-9

I would have assumed that a Legacy set would not be compatible with a TMCC set, I was under the impression we were talking at least the same control family.

Interesting information.  Marty, I have a TMCC N&W J with IR, but it has the RS 5.0.  I did notice that the only boards in the tender were the RS boards.  So even a TMCC engine with RS 5.0 does it with out AD-20.  I guess that is also why you have much different light effects as far as AUX2 use and shut down.  The tender backup light stays on, until track power is shut off if you shut down the engine from Reverse.   G

RS5 with standard TMCC must recognize the 8 bit command structure, or it wouldn't work, right?

Just to follow up. My NYC PT tender made in 2005 arrived today. Its equipped with RS-5.

It worked fine with my NYC Niagara made in 2000 with RS-4 without any reprogramming. One glitch I hadn't foreseen is the crew and tower talk refer to 5429, the tender number. Since the sound quality is not significantly better than the RS-4 Niagara 6024 tender I will have to find another use for it.

 

As pointed out above the 2011 Vision Hudson has a different IR sensor located above the drawbar so is incompatible both mechanically and signal wise.

 

This Century Club tender was obviously made for a particular Lionel Hudson. Does anyone know the product number for that engine?

 

Pete

Pete, If I am not mistaken, the PT tender was made for the 6-38000 NYC ESE Hudson. The cool thing about the PT tender (in my opinion) is the tender has four 32 ohm speakers! It is the only tender we have EVER made with 4 speakers! (i think it is pretty cool anyway FWIW!) Hope this helps clear up any confusion. If you REALLY want to keep this tender we could swap out the RS5 boards and install an RS4 system so you can add the Niagara RS 4 audio board for #6024 towercom. Email me directly at mreagan@lionel.com Thanks, Mike Lionel

Thanks for the offer Mike. I thought there might be a connection to the ESE Hudson because the road numbers are the same but not sure if the streamline engine would have pulled the non streamlined tender. I bought it originally to put behind a non streamlined hudson. I didn't realize until after I bought it that it had a wireless tether. I may convert it to wired to use with another unstreamlined hudson. I will have to do some research to find a J3 if I want to keep that road number. Mine are all J1s.

 

Pete

Hi All,

I too have a 6-38097 PT tender.  I would like to convert the tender for use behind a J1e or J3a via a WIRED teather.  I would like to know what exactly must be done in order to accomplish this.  I do NOT need a "talking" tender, just one that provides fairly accurate 4 chuff per revolution, whistle, backup light and perhaps the working coupler.  Also, would matching it up with the K-Line K3270-5343S NYC Scale J1e Hudson be a possibility as it had Lionel electronics onboard.

While in Canfield this weekend, I spoke with Mike Reagan briefly about this and he volunteered to convert the tender as he had suggested to Pete in this series of posts.  Since I have 2 of these tenders, I'm considering this option also but at this point, I'd just like to know if a wired teather is a possibilty and the options that conversion might offer as far as what locomotives could then be married to this tender.  Pete, the NYC did all sorts of strange combinations towards the end of the steam era as some of the pictures I've seen have indicated.

Thanks in advance!

Best,

Dave

Hi Pete,

 

Thanks for the speedy response.  THAT would be the quickest answer - take the board and teather out of the K-Line tender but I'm not sure I want to butcher the original tender should I want to run the K-Line loco and tender as original.  So, the next best thing would be to get a board and teather from Mike at Lionel.  Perhaps sending him the 6-38097 would be the best way to go but then specify that he return the original PT parts so it could be converted back.

I wonder if they have an original K-Line/Lionel board for the conversion that would have the correct loco number OR, if they could reprogram the board for me so it does reflect the K-Line 5343 engine number?  Any idea on cost?

You mentioned having to add magnets and a sensor to the PT tender's wheels.  Wouldn't the chuff be taken care of via the teather to the engine since that's how it worked originally from K-Line? (especially if I were to gut the K-Line tender for the parts)?  Just wondering since I've been a "collect" for over 30 years and finally decided to start runnin' this stuff...

Third question - which J3a did you acquire since that would look great with the second 6-38097 that I have.  Besides, it sounds like all I would have to do is put the PT tender behind the J3a and it would work without modification!

Best,

Dave

Dave, The Railsounds electronics in the K-Line tender are standard Lionel parts, motherboard, audio board and audio power board. Actually I'm not sure the tower talk even mentions an engine number, it may simply say 20th Century Limited or something similar. The one item that may not be standard Lionel is the connector on the tether (assuming you buy new boards) but Mike can probably tell you that.

On the K-Line engine the chuff switch is in the engine and its only a two lobe cam. That switch goes to the audio board via two wires. You would simply disconnect that connector and wire a reed switch located near a tender wheel and attach two magnets on the wheel. Not prefect solution unless the tender wheel is exactly half the diameter of the engine driver but close enough. The Lionel J3a is 28072 made ~2004. The tether appears to be the same type as the PT tender. My 4-8-4 made in 2001 worked with the tender so I am pretty sure this engine will work as well.

 

Pete

Pete,

I just checked "the Bay" and didn't find any 28072 currently listed.  Recent sales indicated $749 buy it now but included separate sale "boxpok" drivers included and another at $550 - both were used.  Out of curiosity, what did you have to pay for your 28072?  Just so I know what I should espect to shell out

Best,

Dave

550 would be a great price. Consider Lionel only made this one J3 and the tether should be compatible with the tender with no messing around other than cosmetics. 3rd Rail's is twice the price but already has the PT tender. Not sure if MTH ever made a J3 but I know they did make an unstreamlined Hudson with a PT tender. This Lionel engine is better detailed than the Vision Hudson and close to the K-Line. Happy hunting.

 

Pete

Dave, Just to let you know the PT tender does work with the Lionel J3a 28072. The good news is the engine might be Lionel's best detailed NYC Hudson surpassing in some areas the K-Line Hudson. It would be interesting to compare it with 3rd Rail's J3.

The downside is the J3 is lettered in the earlier RR Roman script and the tender, of course, is done in the later Gothic style. Relettering the engine to match the tender would be closest to prototype as the engine appeared lettered both ways but the tender was never lettered in RR Roman. Then the tender supplied with the engine would not match.

It might appear to a simple swap but its not.

 

Pete

Pete, thanks for the info and 'heads up' on the 6-28072 Hudson.  Someone else mentioned it the other day and I took a quick look on the bay and other place but haven't found one yet - still keepin' my eye out though!

Best,

Dave

Mike, Lionel was right! I just found these pics which clearly show an unstreamlined PT tender with the ESE Hudson. Live and learn. Now back to your regularly scheduled Legacy/TMCC discussions.

 

 

Pete

A few years ago I picked up a pair of orphan Lionel tenders with wireless teathers. I've never been quite certain whether they should do anything without a matching locomotive.

Should they make any sounds?

CW, It appears that they might work with some engines of the same vintage but I am fairly sure they won't make any sound without one of those engines. Some Railsounds tenders were designed to work with any engine but if it has a wireless tether you'll need an engine with compatible tether to transmit commands to the tender.

BTW, you can put the tender on the track and try them. You won't damage anything. You might get at least whistle, bell, and chuff sounds if you roll the tender.

 

Pete

Pete,

Thanks for posting the pictures.  As I stated earlier, towards the end of its steam era, the Central did whatever it took to 'keep 'em running', even if it meant using partially de-streamlined locomotives such as the ESE Hudsons in your pictures and mating them with a standard PT.

Best,

Dave

PS:  Mikado, I sent you an email this evening about starting the conversion process of one of my Century Club II PTs

quote:

BTW, you can put the tender on the track and try them. You won't damage anything. You might get at least whistle, bell, and chuff sounds if you roll the tender.

 

Thank you for the suggestion.

I put one of the tenders on the track. When power was applied, I got the sounds of a steam engine idling, with occasional steam blow-off.

Moving the tender did not create any sounds. I do not see any sort of sensor on the wheels/trucks.

When I first tried the whistle (postwar ZW) I did not get any sound.

Then it occurred to me that with no other load, there might not be enough DC bias.

Sure enough, when I put an engine on the track with it, the whistle did blow.

I did not try to reverse the leads to see if it had a bell.

 

I wonder whether it is feasible to build a homemade simulator for the IR connection to test / operate the chuffing.

 

Boy is the tender heavy. I think it outweighs most of my postwar locomotives.

I suspect the IR tether is just bringing the R2LC serial signal to the tender, so I can't see why you couldn't just connect an R2LC with the correct cables to the IR tether interface and locomotive tether and have your simulator.

Possible John but in addition to the IR interface you would need a new motherboard to connect all the boards in the engine together plus the engine drawbar. Maybe there would be room, maybe not. Not simple nor cheap even for a professional.

CW, its likely the engines that these tenders were designed to work with have the chuff switch in the engine. You can mount magnets to a tender wheel along with a reed switch and then connect it to audio board. If you have the Lionel #for the tender we can figure out where to connect the wires from the reed switch.

You can go to the Electric Railroad website and download the manual for their railsounds boards. There are photographs in the instructions which show you how to mount the magnets and reed switch to a tender truck.

 

BTW this all assumes you plan to run the tender in conventional.  You would lose whistle and bell if the track was at full 18-20 volts for TMCC unless you did make an interface to the R2LC in the engine.

 

Pete

I didn't say it was cheap, but it could be done.

 

I'm not sure what the intent of the test rig was, if it's just to get the chuff working, I like your plan better!   He said to "test" the chuff, which is why I thought he was building a bench layout.

Thanks for the replies. I am fairly certain that the tender in question is from a 6-38030 2-8-8-2. I also have a tender from a 28080 0-8-0 switcher that I would like to check out.

 

My initial interest was in just verifying that the tenders work. Currently I don't have any locomotives to match up with either one.

Just as I found these orphan tenders, a matching orphan locomotive might turn up someday.

It's happened before.

 

Those are both Legacy engines so it may be awhile before a Legacy orphan shows up. You could still get many of the basic sounds in conventional including chuff if you added the reed switch and magnets.

 

Pete

Well, if someone cooks the electronics in a tender, they might be willing to part with the other half for a good price.   After all, the tenders showed up, right?