Midwest Model Works

I'm sure there will be an update soon from Erik.  Stay tuned.

Erik has posted an update on the project

http://midwesternmodelworks.com/general-news/

1/3/13 - Happy New Year everyone!!

I wanted to provide an update for those of you who have reserved models through this project offering.  We know you are curious as to the status of the project and want to reassure you that the project is progressing forward, albeit a little slower than anticipated.  We are still gathering information for some of the locomotives. We had hoped to have this aspect of the project completed by now, however, due to the extensive list of locomotives offered, the research has taken a bit longer.  Many of these locomotives were listed with the SD45 because they are very similar and can be run with the SD45s. These locomotives would never have sufficient numbers on their own to have produced a run by themselves, so we added them to the SD45 project knowing full well there were many of you who would love to see them done in fine scale brass (Myself, for one). Please be patient, as we know each and every customer with a reservation is expecting the most accurate model of that locomotive ever produced in any scale.  I would rather build these and have them take a bit longer (but built correctly), than hurry them and have unhappy customers. We will be posting the locomotive road numbers that we intend to produce very soon, so check back frequently for that information.

Brad,

The reservation process closed for these models just a couple of months ago. I don't know if you are familiar with a project such as this or not, but it takes quite some time in order for all this to be done. Kohs and others usually take 2-3 years from reservations till delivery to the customer. It is a long and painstaking process that would tax Mother Teresa's patience. Sometimes it takes numerous pilot models before production begins. And when you have numerous variations of a model being done, then it becomes tedious and very time consuming. Give this man the benefit of the doubt. It is a monumental undertaking to say the least. I'm sure he going to devote a considerable amount of time and energy to satisfy his customers and make sure every model is correct. Henry Boltmann from C&LS made some of the best models out there and it took all of his time and money in these efforts. In the process it bankrupt Henry and drove him out of this business. I commend Eric for taking this on when it would be too much of a challenge for most men. And no I do not have a stake or any money involved in this. It's too far out of my time line. Excellence takes time and a lot of money.

Tom Mapes

Tom, I couldn't agree with you more.  While I too would have liked to have found out that Erik is further long, with the number of models he is producing in this run, many of which I would say will never be offered again in O Scale, we need to be supportive of him and his efforts to bring such highly accurate and super detailed models to O Scale.

In my book, once he officially requests money from everyone that has reserved a model he is on the clock.  Until that point we can't be too critical because knowing the level of accuracy he strives to achieve, these will be well worth the wait and by far the best models ever produced.

George Kohs was having the PRR N5b caboose done in numerous schemes and configurations. I believe he started the reservation process almost 4 years ago. It could be longer for all I know. He rejected them just before the National last year. He now has a lawsuit against his builder preventing them from dumping them on the market. Now he is starting over. And people have laid out a considerable amount of money for their models. Their are cultural and business differences to consider. And then deal with the fact that builders are leaving this business because of the demands and whining done by Americans for their models. They would rather deal with the Europeans because they pay more for their models and have a different mindset than Americans. If you want instant gratification in this hobby, then you are kidding yourself. O scale is all about patience.

Tom Mapes

Fellas, your points are valid; I was expressing that he should have had more of his research done prior to taking resos....

Re Kohs: I have nothing on order, but frankly see no logical way he will prevent someone in Korea from selling them into the us market.     They may not have kohs on them---but believe me, the builder will find a shill to place them so he gets rid of the models.    I am not privy to mr. kohs situation, but would be surprised that a us court will take up the matter---and then chase some ebay buyer down the road....

Brad,

Just my .02 here...

Erik's research is extensive enough for each and every loco that is reserved that it would have been fruitless to perform that much research prior to reservations being solidified.  Keep in mind there was some ability to request specific road numbers as well.  What I am saying is that Erik would have conducted research on locomotives which did not make the cut or were different road numbers than the locomotive he researched.  From what I can tell, only about half of what was originally offered made the cut?

Brad,

There are a total of 31 different models being done. Was Erik supposed to have all the research done before hand. That makes no sense. You establish the basics and expand from there. And then you have to have your import license. And then you have to establish your credit with a bank that deals on an international basis. Do you see where this is going? Something good takes time. You can't just throw money at it and expect instant results. And this is Erik's first engine. If you want something done faster, then deal with Lionel, MTH, etc. And if you want more say in this endeavor of Erik's, then offer to open your wallet and help him out. I'm sure he will appreciate it.

Tom Mapes

Tom, chill out.    I emailed him last year expressing interest in an SD-9.     I import rugs from 5 asian nations---I understand how they work.    Also lived there.    

All I suggesting is that his update does not seem to be any meaningful change in status from last summer---I wish him luck.

Brad,

I'm not upset with you about this nor am I chiding you for your opinion. It all comes down to this. Less buyers wanting more options from a rapidly dwindling supply of builders. It takes time to develop a good product. Because if you do not have it right the first time, your done doing business in this field and your reputation is gone. And Erik has taken a considerable amount of time establishing his reputation. He also makes drives for other model railroaders amongst other lines of work.

Now I know for fact that Key uses several people for his research besides himself. And that takes time and money. And he has to compensate these people for their efforts. I do not know how Erik does his research. But to offer 31 models for different railroads is a gigantic task besides juggling his other endeavors. It will take time. And a lot of work for a small operation. I wish him luck and if he should offer something I want, then I will purchase something.

And I apologize for coming off too strong. It's been a long morning repairing my own models. Time to put them away.

Tom

Tom---thanks---

I'm curious about 2 things.  Back when I was a youngster (60's) and couldn't afford brass it seemed to me there were brass engines of all types coming out our ears, at least in HO scale.  Now it seems like trying to land a man on the moon to get a brass model made. What happened?  Does this (2nd question) pertain only to O scale and HO is still going gangbusters, or is it brass regardless of scale?

Thanks..............

Peter

Tom Mapes, no need to establish a relationship with a bank, the Koreans take only cash up front. Ed

Hi Ed,

Now that is a difficult way to do business. But everything has a price. And not all brass comes out of Korea. I've found that the high end brass comes from Korea, but a good bit comes from China now. And from what I understand, importers are looking at other countries to do this work. In the future we may find our brass coming from the Phillipines, Vietnam, or India. It's all about who will do the work at a cheaper rate.

Tom 

It was predicted in a treatise on economic systems in the mid-1800s.  What you do is look for the absolute lowest labor cost commensurate with what you want to build.  That was Japan, then Korea, then China.  All of a sudden these skilled craftsmen and builders discover the benefits of holidays, vacations, good wages, automobiles, health care . . . Do you blame them?

The question is, what happens when you run out of places with cheap labor?

Tom, inporters have been looking for ages for cheaper costs and they have found many but the quality is not there at least for years. How can the finest models be built with new builder with a delivery date that is reasonable. They cannot. Remember Korea when they first started. It took them years for quality. Ed

Ed,

I sure do remember the early Korean stuff. We had a member run a new Precision K4 on the layout. The piece was painted and beautiful. Before it made it around once, a dozen pieces fell off. We laughed our *** off.

Bob2

We are becoming cheap labor. And unskilled at best. All in the name of saving money. And that is an illusion at best. My oldest daughter moved to Germany with her husband and doubled her salary. 

Tom Mapes

Greetings Ed,

A legitimate question here, NOT just busting your behind! From what I read, you seem to have a pretty fair understanding/knowledge of the process of importing brass.....where/how do you see things going in the future (if indeed there is one)? Any random comments/insights on the subject in general? Carte Blanche!

I find the topic of brasss most interesting.

Thanks,

Simon

I saw Eric at the Chicago show and he assures me that he is working long and hard on producing the announced diesels. I have known Eric for many years and he is a good guy and I wish him the best, Ed

Hi Ed,

I've known Erik for a number of years as well and cannot agree more with your statement. I was at the Chicago meet this year too, actually my first attendence, and I really enjoyed the event.

I also had the opportunity to have a good chat with Erik in detail about the status of MMW's SD45 offerings. He gave me a demonstration of his drive and lighting systems as well and it definately exceeded my expectations.

The drive system is impressive in its own right but I especially like the lighting system with it's custom headlight lenses and the 50 or more lights in each unit. The attention to prototypical operation and intensity is superb. He also showed me his gyra light which was not quite ready for a complete demonstration but just the same, that is some very impressive craftsmanship. The individually powered exhaust fans are really neat too and I came away from the demonstration very impressed. He also stated the research phase of the project is wrapping up and will soon be moving into production.

The SD45 is my favorite loco so I'm probably a little biased,  but regardless given what I've seen, I will not miss out on this offering. Chances are these SD45/SD45-2 models will never get done again in O Scale, in this level of fidelity, and even if MMW offers them again it will likely be a decade or more before they do.

I've read posts on this forum and others from those who have concerns regarding the cost of O Scale brass engines. I completely appreciate what they are saying but I think it would be a shame if one who really wants to get in on this SD45 offering misses out on this opportunity and passes because of these concerns without first discussing this matter with Erik, they may be pleasantly surprised.

John

As long as we are discussing MMW and SD45s;  I have reserved an SP SDP45 and there may not be sufficient reservations to make the SP/GN SDP45s a go .  So if you are interested...

Also, Erik asked me if I had any dimensional data on steam generator equipped SDP45s and after a week of looking I had to give up.  I found data of things I didn't even know there were dimensioned drawings of but no SDP45s.  If you have any he would really like to know about it;  and me to, for obvious reasons.

Do I remember Koreas first year. Terrible, Awful, want my money back. Halmark models 1st model I believe was the SD24 and it was horrendous and I had 4 on order, a years worth of model money and never heard before I got them it was not from Japan. I should have refused them but my money and the LHS was paid up.

I agree with John's post above.  There are so many great things about what Erik is bringing to market that there is bound to be some skepticism about his ability to deliver everything that is promised with his models.    Like John, having seen many of the innovations in working form, I am not concerned about his ability to deliver these innovations.  The drive and lighting systems are made right here in the good ol' USA...   In fact, in talking with Erik at the March Meet I was once again in awe over the lighting, and running DCC, this was a big concern.  I was able to operate the lighting with his hand held controller and set it and forget it... Basically the Ronco approach to lighting, no CV's to mess with, no function keys, easy to understand descriptions.

So any concerns about early how early brass models looked, operated, should not be a concern with MMW models.   Erik's standards are VERY high, if you've ever seen his personal locomotive collection or operated one of his locomotives you know exactly what I mean.  

I highly encourage anyone with questions to talk with Erik directly, visit his shop, etc...

Hey Guys - one thing that I'd keep in mind about Erik bringing a new product to market and the worries some might have about the models not being up to snuff as an unproven commodity ; right now all my favorite models are C+LS and they are going to be tough to beat , but looking back on what Henry did years back and the model runs he produced - none of them were ''bad models '' - not his first and not not his last . They're all fantastic models and given the similarities between these guys I think it bodes well . My 2 cents .

          Regards,

          Bryan

Henry made models that were highly detailed but also ran well out of the box. No re-motoring, no surprises down the road if one had his engine in a display case or box and decided to take the model to a club or friends house to run. Henry test run every locomotive on his half dog bone outdoor pike. Before sending the engine on its way to each customer..I live on Long Island and he hand delivered every engine I purchase from him…And I am sure he did the same to his other customers…

Dennis 

Bryan has a point.  The enthusiasm level seems to be the same for Erik and Henry.

but the "bodes well" part eludes me.  Henry made arguably the beat models ever seen in O Scale, and he is not only no longer doing it, but also not even involved in the O Scale community, at least as he was during development.

i would hope this will not be Erik's path.  But I do not think the market will support Erik any better than it supported Henry.

Hi Bob,  What makes you think the market will be tough for Erik?

My only thought is that with Overland having made a variety of newer models and Key competing with him that perhaps he could have made some first generation diesels instead.    I would love to order from him, but the current offerings are from an era that does not interest me.     The SD-7/9 would of course be of interest; would like to see a NW-2 as well...    I am hopeful that he has success and can offer a broader range down the line.

Bear in mind Henry went bankrupt in his pursuit of accurately detailed well running models, he did sell direct [no dealers] but his choice of prototypes limited his market substantionaly, Eric has yet to get his project off the ground,ultimate costs and how it will be funded are still to be determined. There is no doubting the few Korean builders who specialize in these models have the ability to produce superdetailed models its just a question of time and investement. Interesting that Overlands latest project is not only pushing 2 years in the making but is requesting the buyers to be paid up in full before there Korean buider[Ajin] actually ships the models to Overland[Brian Marsh]

It was known up front that reservation and progress payments and final payment were required before delivery.  The models were also $2100 vs the $2500+ of the previous models.  3rd Rail also requires payment when shipping notices are sent from the manufacturer.  Brian also said it would be 18 months from the go decision and right now he will only be 4 months behind which is as good as or better than Lionel or Atlas much of the time. 

This was as much a test of the viability of continuing to make O scale brass at all as anything else.  Brian lost money on the last SD70Aces, likely a fair amount.  So he is justified in being gun-shy.  It took a couple of years of enough people committing to this project before it was even announced.  

I believe Erik is also trying to get his done at ~$2500.  So he has to make as much known as possible cost and time wise before a final go decision requiring reservation charges and committing to a delivery date.

And maybe they are making modern stuff because that is where the market is right now.  It certainly is for me.  I have no interest in things more than a generation or two old except passenger diesels or one offs like bicentennial SD45s.

I'm hoping this will go well enough to announce either another run of these in newer liveries or, better yet, GEVOs, which have never been done before.  

Granted Henry did Western Maryland steam, which may be a hard sell in quantity, but he also did some diesels and the ever popular SP 4-10-2.

Had the Diesels and the SP steam supported his endeavor, he would probably still be producing quality models.  He did advertise.

I wish Erik great success.  I am just suggesting that his business model looks a lot like Henry's. I am not a businessman, and my opinion should not count, but if I were going to model an O Scale business after something, I would emulate Sunset.

i'll say it again - opinion.

Erik could get himself in a pickle if he produces models that he himself likes

and hopes that he can sell a few to make it go. This kills a business worse than

anything. it would be like buying a hobby shop and never putting any money back in it because your buying what you like and taking it home.

Also with these models the detail variations for RR to RR is a very daunting task

and will drive a builder crazy. Key Models has experienced this many times with there models. Some had to be redone until they got the right.

You can give them 10 Lbs of information and photo's but when you start changing details from model to model they just do not get it.

I to wish him well and hopes he succeeds.

Marty----South Of big D

Mike - the point was that one only puts up with a full time endeavor that loses money for a relatively short time.

There are exceptions to that, I guess.  The airline business is one.

Hey Guys -

          Erik updated the site yesterday with news that opening long hood doors may be an extra cost option for those interested . Take a look at the General News page . Could be interesting .

          Regards,

          Bryan

Agreed. It all seems neat until it breaks or gets in the way. At end game, it is just gimmicky CRAP that drives up prices.

Simon

Maybe this sudden interest in open hood doors has something to do with the RS3 in the model contest at Chicago.  I'm going to guess that model does not have operating doors but I couldn't get close enough to see.  If those doors were hinged they had to have some mighty tiny hinges.

When I work on the older Diesels with swinging doors, or steam models with floppy sand cover hatches, I wind up gluing them shut.  Do folks really pull up to the sand tower, and remove thiose hatches on O Scale railroads?