MTH S Scale NYC F3: Preliminary Report

Rusty:

Your news couldn't have arrived at a better time. I'm very glad it looks as if MTH has not screwed with a good thing and broke it.

I will not be posting in the current Flyonel GP7 thread, for I don't want to poo-poo in it... but I will say here that if the "new and reworked" GP7 is what Lionel thinks is a good direction for the S crowd: Wow. I'm flabbergasted.  So many steps backward I can't count them. Seems their "new and improved" GP7 represents a lot effort/money expended on a product that will end up looking terrible.  Even if I were in AF/Hi Rail, I would reject that thing.

I say the above paragraph to lay the foundation for this: It is now my feeling that MTH, as slow and sluggish as they are, is really the only mfg'er between the two that the scale S enthusiast has any hope of receiving good product from.

I suspect that Lionel does NOT have a workable, long term, vision for S scale, especially within the scale persuasion. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt that I am. 

Thanks for the report.  Hopefully my SF units aren't far behind.

Brendan

Please post a video Rusty. I'm glad you like them, but I'm pretty picky when it comes to sound and slow speed operation as you know. Specifically, MTH engines have a bad habit of jumping from a stop the first speed step. If you could test that under DCC it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

UPDATE---

Here's the NYC F3's stretched out in all their HiRail glory:

Next up: Scalifcation.

I'm going to have to review the manual (Notice I didn't say READ, I'd have to turn in my Man Card then...) and get familiar with MTH's DCC operation.  I'm going to test each unit before and after they're scalified.  One step at a  time.

As far as video, once I get these things to act as a single locomotive, then I'll have to re-figure out my video camera.  I tried posting cell-phone video last year, but for some reason the forum software changes the format and I get sound but no picture.

Rusty

I see no steam generators on the roofs. Painted in NYC freight colors. All is well, very good. I hope MTH keeps paying attention to little detail variants like this.

Quick Casey posted:

I see no steam generators on the roofs. Painted in NYC freight colors. All is well, very good. I hope MTH keeps paying attention to little detail variants like this.

I'm hoping they get it right on the Santa Fe's...  No S/G on the A's, only S/G's on the B's.

Another little update. 

The MTH F3 weighs 3 ounces more that one of my SHS F3's.  Probably the difference between Proto3 electronics and the Lenz decoder in my F3.

I want to make sure things are working OK before I scalify these, so I tried them on conventional DC.  First, I did each unit separately.  I can hear a relay click before the F3's energize.  The sound comes on with the throttle a little less than half-way.  A little past half-way and the locomotive begins to move.  Throw the direction switch and the locomotive will slow, then reverse direction.  No horn or bell control.  The only thing I can see is they run opposite of my direction switch on my throttle.

The A-units are set to run back-to-back, it's a matter of observing which way the B-unit takes off to get it to match the A's direction.  according to the manual, there are some switches located behind the back door, but I haven't fully investigated them yet.

I was able to run them on a short stretch of code 100 track with the HiRail wheels.  They do bump on some of the spike heads, but they ran well enough to convince me I'm just about ready to try DCC.  Once I've convinced myself i know what I'm doing, I'll scalify the locomotives.

I'm far from a DCC genius, so I'm treading carefully here.  I want to go through the manual some more, so far I've picked upon the fact the locomotives are defaulted to address 3.

Oh yeah... The manual says S Gauge F3 and F7 Diesel Engine Operator's Manual, so maybe... (Hopefully not in another 4 years.)

Rusty

Do these have a "China drive" (two vertical motors), or the single motor setup with gear cassettes for each truck like S-Helper Service used??  If anyone has had the hood off, what's the gear ratio, and what kind of motor is used?  Is it the ubiquitous Mabuchi 385?

A pic with the hood off would tell a lot.  Thanks!!

Rusty, Read the manual as there is lots on DCC and there is a switch for DCC inside the back door.

Ted Sowirka posted:

Do these have a "China drive" (two vertical motors), or the single motor setup with gear cassettes for each truck like S-Helper Service used??  If anyone has had the hood off, what's the gear ratio, and what kind of motor is used?  Is it the ubiquitous Mabuchi 385?

A pic with the hood off would tell a lot.  Thanks!!

Ted,

Nope, no China drive.  The tach tape on the flywheel that MTH uses is visible behind the fuel tank underneath.

These aren't my locomotives and I remember the SHS shell was difficult to remove because of a tight fit, so I'm not going to chance it.  Sorry, no interior photo's.  I expect the gear ratio is the same as SHS's was, there would be no reason to change it.

Bill,

This is being a very organic process for me, I know enogh about each system to be dangerous.  I've checked the manual for specific information as I've needed it.  I accidentally found out they will run on DCC with the switch in the DCS position, however it is possible to lose sync between the front and rear A-units.  After moving the switch to DCC, I've done tests run with no problems.  of course, bumping along on code 100 track with HiRail flanges doesn't help.

I'll start scalifing the units tomorrow.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

UPDATE---

Here's the NYC F3's stretched out in all their HiRail glory:

 

 

Rusty

Just curious but what percentage of the intended buyers of these beauties will be 'American Flyer high-railers running them on tight curves?

Just look at that gap! I wonder when the manufacturers will begin to package these with close couplers, scale pilots (I thought the lead A unit was pushing a handcar or something in the photo below) and the like installed? The huge AF couplers and extended couplers can be included to be installed if desired.. It's like Lionel (especially) marketing their full-scale steamers with tiny pilot wheels...

I would think that an increasing number of buyers are more scale minded and should be the default audience! 

"Scalifing":

Haven't heard that one since the '70's when someone did an article on "Scalemizing" (that's how it was spelled; I looked it up) The Atlas F9" (in O scale, of course...)

(My photo, not the article's...)

Mark in Oregon

c.sam posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

UPDATE---

Here's the NYC F3's stretched out in all their HiRail glory:

 

 

 

 

Rusty

Just curious but what percentage of the intended buyers of these beauties will be 'American Flyer high-railers running them on tight curves?

Just look at that gap! I wonder when the manufacturers will begin to package these with close couplers, scale pilots (I thought the lead A unit was pushing a handcar or something in the photo below) and the like installed? The huge AF couplers and extended couplers can be included to be installed if desired.. It's like Lionel (especially) marketing their full-scale steamers with tiny pilot wheels...

 

I would think that an increasing number of buyers are more scale minded and should be the default audience! 

Pardon me if I jump in here, as I am only an observing bystander. These A's and B's are not a set, but offered as individual sales. Maybe some people will have a single A unit pulling a consist. They may need the huge coupler at the rear of the A unit. As another has shown, easily corrected with AM couplers if you want close coupling.

So far, I am impressed with what MTH has done. BTW, I own some S-Helper rolling stock and locomotives.

No, the market is NOT trending to scale C Sam.  That is why MTH and Lionel spend most of their efforts on Hi-Rail in S Gauge.  

Nobody here is talking about running theirs on DCS.  I ran the Jersey Central on both DCS and conventional.  DCS worked well after I got used to the system.  The frustration was similar to learning about Legacy when I bought that to go with my Big Boy.  I found with conventional that the two powered units did not always move at the same speed causing them to push and pull against each other.  Has anyone else observed this? 

DCS seems to be more robust than Legacy with more features to learn.  Will any of you buy a full DCS system ($350) to run the F3 or the minimal DCS Remote Commander unit ($60)? 

I would, but in this discussion I am an enigma. I already have DCS (for O gauge) which I really like. And I own S gauge AM, SSA and S-Helper. If you guys do not want to embrace DCS, that's fine, but I hope that MTH produces product that you like. If I'm going to be in S gauge, it will be as a scaler and MTH is the last hope for scale with CC. If MTH were to reproduce the SHS locomotives that I have, I would sell my SHS for MTH because of DCS.

I've recently entered the world of HO and DCC. I also purchased a MTH Alco PA ABA with all three  units having PS3. Although I have a DCS system for my O gauge items (and like it) I've noticed that most of the fellas in HO locally have strong anti-MTH feelings and no desire to use DCS.  Does DCS have any advantages over DCC?

I have no experience in DCS, I don't think I would buy the Full DCS system unless MTH really starts pumping out product I like. Can I run an ABA with the cheaper DCS lite system???

Ben

Roundhouse Bill posted:

No, the market is NOT trending to scale C Sam."

In the case of Lionel, I feel that is a terminal business model.  (In the case of MTH, they already have built-in "scale" capability via their SHS purchase, for ALL of SHS products were "scale" oriented.)

Case in point:

Take a look at the avatars of those that frequent this S scale forum. With rare exception(s), baby boomers are the significant majority. Those here of the AF persuasion typically "connect" with AF on account of childhood/youthful connections.  Fact:  As a whole, AF fan or not, we're "aging-out".  That is, frankly speaking, at a specific, yet undetermined time, our tickets are getting punched, and we're ending our stint on this planet and passing on. 

In the case of AF, the enthusiasts are "aging out" in far greater numbers than new entrants that are coming into the AF side of S scale. Over the coming years there will be many, many large collections of AF-type S scale that will be hitting the market place because of attrition.  There won't be large numbers of enthusiasts vying to acquire pieces from those collections, for very few people are entering the AF side of S scale to replace those leaving.

To me, that is a terminal business model for Lionel to pursue: Catering to a demographic that is aging-out and will be VERY much reduced within the coming (not so short) years.

So, Lionel will either milk the AF sugar titty until it runs dry and then they're done with S... or they will start figuring out ways to tap into the younger HO modelers that want larger trains without the size of O/G scales, and, as we all know, S is that size.

Frankly, I don't think Lionel is all that interested in the longevity of S, or they just fail to grasp the facts.

Simply put: Without a huge infusion of new AF-type enthusiasts, AF is not the long term future for S scale.

I don't mean to be depressing, it just seems to me that SOMETHING needs to be a wake up call to Lionel (in particular) to seriously reconsider their current business model IF they want to continue within the S scale segment of the hobby on the long term.

Also, from what I'm reading (and what I see on other forums), HO is still experiencing some growth. And, there are far more "younger" (i.e. age 30's - 50's) people within it than is found in either O or S. Growth wise, HO and N are doing all right... it's the larger scales that are contracting.

c.sam posted:

I've recently entered the world of HO and DCC. I also purchased a MTH Alco PA ABA with all three  units having PS3. Although I have a DCS system for my O gauge items (and like it) I've noticed that most of the fellas in HO locally have strong anti-MTH feelings and no desire to use DCS.  Does DCS have any advantages over DCC?

So many and more. Most importantly, with DCC one can easily operate locomotives together regardless of manufacturers. Can't do that with DCS, strictly MTH only. If I could pick between the two, I'd go DCC for sure. 

c.sam posted:

 I've noticed that most of the fellas in HO locally have strong anti-MTH feelings and no desire to use DCS.  Does DCS have any advantages over DCC?

In HO, DCC is pretty much king.  I cannot see any wholesale abandonment of a standard that is not proprietary, is accomodated by all HO vendors, has JMRI, has multiple vendors offering a wide variety of decoders, has many vendors creating/offering add-on electronics, and a a large base of knowledge for a proprietary system run by one company.  Even MTH realises this and has DCC in PS3.  Granted, there is proprietaryness among the control systems - NCE, Digitrax, Lenz, etc. but I only need one to run any DCC-eqiupped engine\.  The options for decoders is unheard of in the MTH/Lionel world.

Brendan