MTH/WILLIAMS/LIONEL Quality?

Lee:

I have Williams, both pre and post Bachmann; MTH and Lionel. 

While I've had issues with engines from all three at one point or another over the 25 years I've been back in the hobby; generally speaking I would give Williams the nod for most reliable.

Ok Alan; I will append some positive comments. 

I like MTH's PS3.0 as it eliminates any concerns about the battery.  I also like the sounds in MTH engines and appreciate their efforts to use prototypical paint and number schemes.  I like Williams engines because of their nice paint and graphics and simple electronics. Additionally, Wiiliams engines are fairly easy to repair without returning for warranty repairs.  That said, if a Williams engine does need to go back to Bachmann for repairs, their lifetime warranty is the best in the O gauge world.

Curt

It's like anything else. Who makes a "better" coffee; Starbucks, Dunked  Donuts, Petes, Denny's. Regular or Decaf, French Vanilla, Colombian, etc.

 

It's all about your individual taste. There are some very good things by all of the manufacturers, not only the 3 you have listed. 

 

So this will always be subjective to one's taste. For me, I think "A" makes a "better" xyz engine, but "B" makes a "better"control and sound system, and "C" makes a "better" track. 

 

Others will argue that they think "A", "B" and "C" are inferior to 1,2,and 3.

 

So it's a good topic, but will never be answered - I mean resolved.

 

RAY

Well I think it all depends on what type of trains you are looking to run.  

I have always loved postwar Lionel.  I have a 2360 gg1 that can pull a house down and is super reliable.  

If you want something newer without sound and command control, WBB might be for you.

As for the top end new stuff, I've had good luck with mth and the dcs system.  I have not had the same result with Lionel and the legacy equipment.  

In conclusion, I think it's all a matter of opinion! Happy railroading! 

You will get just as many opinions here as there are trains available.

 

They are all good trains. All of the manufacturers do their best to produce a quality product. Anyone can have a problem with any train on any given day. Some people prefer one over the others, I do not. I like them all and have had very few problems with any of them that I have. My trains are all modern diesels and command control.

AND...so here we go again!!..  Constructive comments please!!....We all already know that there are quality and service issues with the various brands so how about a discussion on your preferences based on some of the positive aspects of each...??

 

Alan

Amen!

Apples and oranges. Williams has significantly less electronics than MTH or Lionel so less to go wrong.

are you talking about only engines or all rolling stock.

Great responses, opinions is what I am looking for, and I do agree with the comments of all! Thanks Guys!

to bigdodgetrain, mostly the engines.

 I own and operate Lionel, MTH, Atlas, and K line engines.

 When it comes to quality I would say that all of the "O" gauge makers make good quality trains.

Lionel Legacy today In My Opinion may lead the pack as far as quality of sound, and operation but I think it lacks a little in detail.

MTH Premier has some of the best detail, and operation but In My Opinion lacks a little in the sound department.

Atlas has, In My Opinion, has some of the best detail, sound but lacks in operation since it no longer has E O B speed control and only TMCC with cruise.

K-Line again In My Opinion, had all three. Detail, sound, and operation, but because K-Line stopped making trains you can only get TMCC and if you're lucky find Cruise.

All of the above are right out of the box.  

Really depends on what you are looking for.  As for me, I choose engines that represent prototypes that I want.  Doesn't matter the manufacturer.  My layout is set up to operate the original TMCC, plus DCS and now Legacy.  So, when any manufacturer comes out with an engine that I'm interested in:  it's added to my roster.  In the case of Williams, or other earlier engines, I will have one of those systems installed because I don't operate anything on conventional any more.

 

Now, as to reliability, I can't say that any one manufacturer produces engines with more or, for that matter, less problems.  Most of my engines have required some sort of service some time or another and I guess that i can accept that.  Sometimes I can fix the problem myself;  Sometimes I need help from one or other of my more technically astute buddies.  I have had recurring problems with both Lionel as well as MTH engines.  My Lionel S-3 Northern tends to drop the sound, suddenly, mostly when drifting down an incline.  Lionel has tried to cure the problem at least three times yet it still does act up on occasion.  But similarly, I have a set of FM C-Liner diesels from MTH that on at least 3 occasions, have lost the "slave" board in the following "A" unit. 

 

Point of this is, these things are pretty complex and are expected to perform flawlessly forever.  Ain't gonna happen!  There will be the occasional gremlin that rears it's ugly little head and some problems will prevail.  Way to handle this is to have them repaired as best the manufacturers - service stations, etc. are able to handle them.  Work with them in analyzing the problems and just be patient:  sooner or later the problems witll be resolved.

 

Paul Fischer

From what I have read and observed in my own layout, the MTH DCS programming is a bit simpler than the Lionel equivalent. But I understand Lionel has brought out a newer simpler version??? I do like the simplicity of the MTH DCS but it can get funny every once in awhile like it did today when my consist that has been working perfectly for weeks decided to not startup correctly and both engines get the same command (??). A big advantage (and I really don't know if Lionel has this feature or not) is you can connect both Lionel's digital command system and MTH's DCS to the same track with some limitations when you set up the layout in the beginning the MTH DCS and add Lionel's system later.

 

If I had to guess it would be that both are made in the same factory in China to slightly different specs. So there is little difference is my guess. I started with all MTH trains and track but the track (RealTrax) was a big mistake.

 

I really like the detailing of the MTH but I have had some poor assembly problems with almost every piece I have. But I'd buy more MTH. I like that MTH has grades of equipment like RailKing, Imperial, and Premiere, each with various levels of detailing. I have all three and even RailKing is great.

 

In reality I think it a toss up between Lionel and MTH.

 

LDBennett

Most of the complaints I read are about electronics or detail part issues on receiving the train. To this point I haven't had any negative issues with any brand.  Like a reasonable number of people here I prefer conventional control for my layout.  I believe this may flow from first experiences many of us had with toy trains at this time of year--watching layouts in department stores or watching display window layouts from the street with our noses pressed up against the window.  Sometimes simple is good.

Lee,

It all boils down to what you are wanting your trains to do. I've never owned anything newer than 1935. You are the only one who can make the high dollar decision. All I can add is this. The best of luck to you.

 

God Bless,

"Pappy"

Perhaps a little different take on "opinions" on quality  -  not an attempt to deviate too far from previously related experiences and opinions  -  my experience has been that quality control issues do exist, at some level, across the board. Probably due to the fact that mass production is required to hold pricing at a level that assures the appropriate turn-over rate and profit margins.  Additionally, as has been mentioned, those products with the least complicated features generally have the fewest problems, no matter who the manufacturer is.

 

I found very quickly that whether I bought Lionel, MTH, Williams, Weaver or any other brand the most important thing was the customer support provided by the retailer.  If the retailer does not provide excellent customer support; defects, quality control, even out right failure to operate become a major problem.  However, if the retailer provides top notch customer service and assistance, the problems that can and occasionally do crop up become little more than a minor bump in the road to toy/model train enjoyment.

 

Steam Rules

 

"a country boy can survive!"    (Bocephus, 1981)

Remember when you're comparing Williams to MTH or Lionel that you're comparing apples to grapefruit!  Command locomotives have far more to go wrong than the Williams basic electronics.  If there weren't a few more issues with the command stuff, I'd be very surprised.

 

I am sorry for forgetting to mention, I don't run any of the new fangled stuff with all the command control & such. I am strictly interested in the analog non digital motive, but digital sound systems are fine. Just the throttle control analog type I prefer.

When growing up one of my hobbies was electronics. My profession before retiring was electronics engineer. Recently, after many decades away from trains, the digital control systems fascinated me and propelled me into MTH DCS Proto-3. One of the draws, counter to my youthful experiences of going as fast as possible, was the very slow speed DCS (and Lionel's equivalent) allows. Another was the close to scale detail unlike my trains of my youth. Back then I lusted after American Flyer of the 1950's for it more scale look. The MTH RailKing and Premier lines beats even the American Flyer of my youth for a scale look.

 

But we all get to choose for our own reasons. For me it is the electronics that pulled me in so I'll never run conventional trains. Even my Lionel/MTH DCS City of Denver clone with the look of 1940's Lionel is run DCS around the XMAS tree.

 

LDBennett

For strictly conventional operation, assuming that you're happy with the Williams sound selection, it's probably pretty hard to beat them.  I will say that Lionel and MTH will typically have better detail work than the Williams stuff.  It all depends on what's important to you.

 

I have all three and enjoy them all.  Some pluses and minuses with each.  I personally prefer MTH because of the command system.  As for conventional operation the only knock on williams/wbb is the engines run very fast at low voltage.  That said I picked up two last year when the GP's were on close-out.  I thought I was buying them mostly for projects but ended up running them quite a bit.

 

 

Lee,

John is correct on his call to detail on Lionel and MTH. If your trains are subject to more than the everyday bumps then Williams is for you. Over the years the Williams and even the Williams by Bachmann level of detail has improved. Should you make WbB your choice, you will need to learn which models come in scale and semi-scale.

 

God Bless,

"Pappy"

Hello,

I went with conventional because I like the old school with block power areas.

All most like running a real rail road from a switch tower.

I do like the new stuff too ,but when I can buy two or three whole sets for the price of one loco.

I wait for a sale and get the unloved sets that just did not sell.

There where a lot of baseball sets that when cheap.Paint is cheap.

Had a real good chance to buy a TMCC loco ,but passed when I saw how much stuff was in side.

I see the old locos run after setting for who knows how long. A PM and their off and running

Will the new stuff do that ?

I have seen here when the new stuff breaks down ,one can be in real trouble with repairs

And still need the remote to work it, with all the special things that go on with it too.

I am glad to see this ,and the new stuff is great ,

But I wonder how much is too much

When we are tiring to get more people to start up in the hobbies ?

Although I'm quite an amateur in electronics, I am here for the exact same reasons you describe. After 30-40 years away form the hobby the command control is what got me going again. Couldn't believe the changes that had been made. To me having two control systems (DCS & Legacy) makes it even better, more electronic system to play with. I run no conventional either, only modern command control diesels. I also find DCC fascinating, seems more configurable, but have no DCC system. Maybe someday?

As for dependability Williams is the best, very little to go wrong.

 

The only bad thing about Williams by Bachmann is the price that Bachmann wants for any of their new train items. Currently you will pay as much sometimes more for a conventional Williams by Bachmann then for a Lionel or MTH with command control.

 

MTH makes good engines and rolling stock but their track systems and switches are not good at all, at least that is what I have heard from others about MTH switches.

 

Lionel makes some decent quality engines if you spend over $325.00 for a new one.

The Lionel single motor diesel engines are terrible. Also the Lionel O gauge tubular track switches made after 1993 are terrible(6-23010 & 6-23011).

 

Post war Lionel is probably the best Lionel ever made.

 

My opinion about the track with plastic roadbed is very very low, as I prefer tubular style track. The only track with a plastic surface built in that I use is either Super Streets by K-Line or E Z Streets by Williams/Bachmann. 

 

Lee Fritz

 

I did not know lionels system was a "digital command system".

I have only two WBB locos I bought new, and one of them, a Trainmaster is the only loco I have that has had a motor actually fail, and both on it failed (at different times, about a year apart).  From what I hear that is an anomaly, but it's my experience.

 

I have had poor luck with MTH starter-set steamers, not nearly as many problems with Lionel RTR sets.  These I buy for grandkids and anymore I get only Lionchief.  

 

I have about a dozen Lionel conventional, non Legacy locos, and all have been flawless.

 

As to MTH and Lionel, I have had very good luck with both Premier and Legacy, except for the current loco-tender electrical coupling on MTH steamers.  Its a weak link and when it breaks I don't consider it quality issue.  It's just a bad design.

 

Overall, I think the quality is the same on WBB, Lionel, and MTH.  WBB locos fail less often because there isn't a whole lot of things in them to go wrong, because they don't have so many features and there is just less to go wrong.  

What did you think it was?

They're all good. I'll buy ANY of the brands if my desire and my budget align.

 

I have had Williams issues, out of the box, so they aren't perfect.

 

MTH seems to have had more electronics problems (haven't had much of that with any of the brands)

 

Lionel diesel quality control seems spottier than MTH. Not so with steam.

 

Atlas is...delicate; but I don't own much of it (steam guys don't).

 

3rd Rail has been the most problematic.

 

RMT - intriguing...the new Marx/Kusan? Got a couple. Need to Slow Down those

locos. Quality seems good.

 

I miss K-Line. 

===========

The above applies to locomotives; RS is less critical, though MTH and K-line are/were

my favorites.

I have some old vintage K-line, diesels...run pretty darn good too!

Some Lionel post war steam, and a pre war too...run like the Dickens! I also have a few post MPC/ FUNDIMENSIONS steam loco's and they are awesome! Had an MTH steam, shoulda kept it...and I have a  PRE Bachman Williams, runs like a top! I had a Weaver long time ago...dead out of the box. It is good to see all the various opinions here on what we all run.

The more they over-think the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain. - Montgomery Scott

As an aside from the actual topic:  I have found that, especially with Williams engines, I can get a whole lot of lower speed control by connecting the  motors in series.  the wiring isn't too difficult to modify but you must be sure to connect up both motors to operate in the same direction, or else you'll have the motors "fisghting" each other and the loco won't go anywhere.  You will still get all the higher speed capability, at least as high a speed as I would want, but the starting control and lower speed control for the engine is substantially improved.

 

You can revise the wiring in these engines whether you operate with conventional control or if you add a Command Control.  It's just a matter of cutting the leads to the motors and placing them in series.  Not unlike real locomotives, either diesel or electric, that run their motors in series at slower speeds and during acceleration until in the final "points" they are running in full parallel.

 

Paul Fischer

I have an assortment of engines from K-Line to Lionel, MTH, and Atlas. My one criteria has been reliability and parts. I find MTH a hit and miss, every part I ever needed for Lionel was not in stock, but Atlas, I have to give credit to, even a missing horn from an engine 10 years old, they were able to supply, wereas a horn for a Lionel engine 3 years old, not available. Go figure, with items now built to order, I doubt missing, broken parts are going to be available. All my future engines unless used, will be Atlas. Wonderfull service, and able to talk to a real person on the phone.

I have to agree with the Atlas parts, I have had good luck there too, only with switches, not engines. Also had good luck with MTH. I have gotten some Lionel parts, but have 2 operating cars I need parts for that I can't find, however, in Lionel's defense, these are MPC cars so I guess that is to be expected as they are 30+ years old.

When you speak of "Quality" I believe it is relative to what the manufacturer is attempting to produce. That is to say, Lionel having better quality of sound than MTH, is not the "Quality" that I would think we should be discussing. "Quality" is how reliable the product is. And to add to that, "Quality" is not necessarily a measure of how robust the product is, i.e., to abuse, accidental fall, etc.

 

We as customers typically look at quality from a binomial perspective: it works right or it doesn't.

 

But through complexity of products in the electronic age, there are far too many "opportunities" (components) that can go wrong. So the term DPMO may best help describe the best "Quality" of a product. DPMO - defects per million opportunities.

It becomes obvious that Williams has far fewer "opportunities" for something to go wrong  than does Lionel or MTH.

 

The manufacturer with the best "Quality" would be the one with the least amount of DPMO's. That is all good. But if any one defect makes the product defective in the customer's eyes, being the manufacturer with the best "Quality" might not be good enough. 

 

Williams definitely has the advantage at producing the lowest percentage of defective products. 

 

All that garbage said, I don't have any idea which manufacturer has the best quality. I just appreciate them making trains for us to enjoy!

Quality in itself is nothing but a word.  It has to be defined.

 

There's good quality, there's bad quality, there's quality points in between.

 

There's also the old adage "Quality is a journey, not a destination."

 

Rusty

Rusty -

 

Absolutely. Some people define a "quality item" as one with many elaborate features,

regardless of the reliability of those items. I do not, and really don't understand that definition. "Fancy" is not "quality". But neither is "simple". An oxcart is simple.

 

I, too simplistically perhaps, define "quality" as reliability and durability, measured within

the products expected usage - plus accuracy, in the case of a model.

 

So, based on that, most Lionel and MTH (and the rest) are high-quality items, as most of

them work very well most of the time. Statistically, one could argue that, as the

more complex locos are -nearly- as reliable as the simple ones, brands L and M have

a higher quality than brand W. 

It is the old Ford vs. Chevy argument in train terms.

 

For conventional I prefer Lionel. With the PS-3 (or comparable) I prefer MTH.

 

Williams looks nice and I have heard them to be reliable.