New Berk Arrived...Not Happy

Stogey~"I find it interesting that a group of people whose average age is 40+( a presumption on my part) is even having this discussion."

 

I (not quite 40 yet) for one am grateful that this discussion topic was created.  I am fortunate enough to be able to purchase a $1,200.00 engine.  I realize this is a lot of money for a toy, and when I decide to spend that kind of money I want the product to be everything I expect it to be. 

 

In this case the product does not meet my expectations and therefore I will not purchase it.  Had I not read this thread I would have ordered the engine payed S & H to my home, haggled with Lionel to return it, paid S & H to Ohio and then waited 4 to 6 weeks to get my refund.  So...yes I am very glad that those impacted by Lionel's decision to not include the whistle steam feature "wailed and gnashed at the keyboard" as Rusty put it.

 

So thanks to whoever started this thread you saved me time, money and considerable aggravation. 

Interesting thread.  Glad to hear that they moved the motor to the firebox, and at some point, if they did the same thing to the USRA light mikado, I may ditch my K-line, and get one of those. 

 

As for the rest of the discussion on the steam whistle, I personally don't use smoke anymore, but many people who do want the feature, and if it was advertised, didn't get what was advertised.  It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, and the different motor far outweighs my concerns with the locomotive.  However, if the feature is that important to the purchaser, they should not reward bad behaviour on the part of Lionel, they should take the locomotive back to where it was purchased, and claim a full refund.

 

Regards,

GNNPNUT

quote:

The one thing I've noticed amidst all this wailing and gnashing of keyboards is that NOBODY has stated that "they'll never buy another Lionel product again" because of the whistle feature being dropped from this locomotive...

 

Years ago I preordered the LTI reproduction of the 164 log loader based on the picture in their catalog. Lionel delivered something completely different. I have preodered exactly two items since.
I passed on preordering the upcoming reproduction 726 Berks because Lionel could not commit to how they would appear, and I passed on preordering the new diecast frame 2023 style Alcos  due to uncertainly as to how they would be made.

 

Little by little, folks may get tired of the disappointments, and turn elsewhere.

I totally agree, it's interesting to read that the argument of money comes into play. The bottom line is ethics! And a few manufacturers need to be sent a message

Omitting Builders Plates is no big deal as they can be had for a few bucks. Whistle smoke is much bigger deal. Check what JDS gets to do the mod.

I gave up pre ordering a few years ago after getting burned on some 6464 remakes. Not a lot of bucks lost but it was enough to make me loose faith in catalog promises.

 

Pete

Well now, THAT information is really interesting. If Lionel has offered this new Berk in the B&A lettering, I may just HAVE TO spring for one of these. Even though I already have the K-Line version which does't pull much, this new Lionel model should bull the walls down.

 

I could give a rat's *** about the "smoking whistle", since I don't use smoke anyway (it sure messes up the weathering, track, and the scenery)!

 

What is the going DISCOUNTED price on these new models?

Really? How do you get CORRECT builder plates for individual steam locomotive models, such as Lima, ALCO, and Baldwin?

 

Amazing that in this day and age that they didn't make mention of this on their Facebook page at the very least.  Ok, so it was too late to change the catalog, so why not get the word out via Facebook or the various online forums (such as this one).

GGG,

I appreciate the points you made.  The shop I buy from sells engines at the same price before and after Lionel ships them.  I am curious though, why do hobby shops offer pre-order promotions?  I doubt it is a completely altruistic endeavor.  I do not own or work for a hobby shop, but I imagine the shops that offer pre-order promotions do so to entice consumers to buy and therefore increase the number of units they can "safely" order from the manufacturer.  I understand that most shops can't carry hundreds of engines as overhead.  So really, isn't everyone hedging their bets?

 

In this game, Lionel pits the consumer against the shop, and in this case neither is responsible for the lack the steam whistle feature. 

 

Ultimately, the customer is always right.  I won't purchase a product that I do not value and I won't buy from a retailer that does not provide me the level of customer service I expect.  The nature of the relationship between Lionel and their retailers, the mark up per unit,  hold back/rebates, none of that factors into my decision making process.  It is literally not my business.  I don't sell toys, I just buy them.

OK... after reading that last post by GGG, I'm reduced to just speaking with emoticons right now... namely, .  That's about all I can say.  WOW...

 

 

 

 

Why is it that the more you speak about integrity, and what's right and wrong... I feel the need to hold on tighter to my wallet.  Thank God my builder made me feel MUCH better that the house he was building for us would actually be the one that was in the plans.  I can see it now if he took the position...

 

Well, you purchased the first home in this subdivision at a great price.  I agreed to deliver a home for your family... nothing more. Oh, you mean you REALLY wanted me to build the home that's outlined in your blueprint???  Oh, I'm sorry... we changed our mind about mid-way through the construction because my sub-contractors decided they were over-committed with other projects. 

 

I mean... really... you can't even DEFEND that, and my head is spinning even trying to understand anyone who would even TRY to defend that way of thinking.  Downright SCARY when you think about.

 

Like I said earlier...  WOW!!!

 

I actually hate the phrase "the customer is always right", because it's been misused so often.  But what you stated so well afterwards is 100% right on the mark.

 

I always have to laugh when folks (and businesses) go on-and-on about how "difficult" it is to work with certain suppliers and make a profit because of this and that.  Well, newsflash to all those folks:  NONE of that MATTERS to the consumers, 'cause they don't CARE about those issues... nor do they want to hear about them.

 

Regarding the pre-order angle... I think you're also right on the mark.  Good business owners know how to make as many transactions as possible become a "win-win" scenario.  Win-Win is good business, and it's a good recipe for repeat clientele in a highly competitive landscape as this one.  Most shops offering "early buy programs" do so as an incentive to increase their order volume.  In this kind of business, VOLUME is a good thing, since most shops would have us believe they don't make tons of profit on a single transaction... thus, most successful toy train businesses operate on a high volume / low profit model (as opposed to a low volume / high profit model).

 

As for the gibberish that GGG was going on about in terms of T's & C's of the pre-order, that was making my head spin and it would be enough for me to do a 180 and march right out the door if a dealer NEEDED that level of a contract to pre-order something for his/her clients.  Thankfully, that's not the case with the boys and girls who operate in the big leagues.  And I'd bet that 99% of the time, the importers pretty much deliver on what they describe in the catalog.  Thankfully, this is one of those exceptions... but oh what I tempest in a teapot it can cause when different people think so differently.

 

OK... I'm signing off on this topic... I didn't even order the darn locomotive to begin with. 

 

David

This will be my only comment, I will not in any circumstance take delivery of a product that is not what was advertised. It goes back to the dealer no if ands or buts. I refused a new car from a dealer because it was not what I ordered. It stayed on the lot. I told them get me what I ordered, nothing more nothing less. It is the same in this instance, I don't care what disclaimers they have, give me what was advertised or I don't take delivery. BTW I worked in retail for 48 years and the customer is NOT always right. 

I should clarify.  The customer is not always knowledgeable.  But the customer is always right when it comes to choosing whether or not to spend their money.  So David1, whether or not you had chosen to purchase the car or leave it on the lot as you did, you perceived yourself to be "right".  Retailers/manufacturers have to convince consumers they are right to spend, for example, $1200.00 on a toy.  They have to convey value. 

 

If consumers don't purchase a product neither the retailers nor the manufacturers make a profit.  Companies that create products that convince us they are worth what we are charged for them make more money than those that don't.

 

It takes a considerable amount of rationalizing to spend 1200 bucks on a toy.  So, Lionel has an uphill batter to begin with.  None of my friends would buy the engines I buy.  When Lionel delivered this Berk without the steam whistle feature as advertised, this product, for me, lost play and purchase value.  Therefore I will not spend my money on it.  It is as simple as that. 

I too was very disappointed. The EM-1 & 4-12-2 were only $50 more retail & engine is much bigger & they both had the whistle steam effect. This engine probably should be been priced at $1099 for what we are getting. I thinking about calling my dealer & see if I can return since product isn't as advertised. Lionel should have told dealers immediately about this feature not being on the final model to give customers a chance to cancel if they wished. Mine also had the inside of the drivers rusty. Has anyone else found this on theirs?

$1200?  That seems like a lot for one of these, smoke or no smoke.  I got one of the early K-Line Lima Locomotive Works models, and can tell you it is smaller than just about anything else around here.  I 2- railed it and moved the motor to the firebox.  I then stitched the belly.  When I put it next to a Lobaugh Berk, I decided it was undersize.  It seems to check with drawings from the railway Cyclopediae.  I still regard it as too small. I am going to dump it some day.

 

For those lusting for the Lima version, the tender and trailing truck were incorrect on the earlier model.  I would have guessed that such glaring inaccuracies would be more important than a whistle. I would have guessed wrong.

This issue is old, so are the arguments. So let's see a raise of hands. Who. of those who are unhappy with their purchase, will be referring this matter to their State's Attorney General? Contract law? False advertising? After all this is an election year ...this is when things of this nature get taken care of.

quote:

In this day and age the guy who lost his job,foreclosed on his home, and struggles to feed his kids would love to trade that situation for a missing smoke unit on an expensive toy train.

 

Sorry, but that guy isn't likely to be purchasing toy trains. If he is, he has a lot bigger problems.
When folks slow down on defending their favorite toy train company, maybe that company will start respecting their customers, and strive to keep their word.

I agree this thread has gotten a bit ridiculous.  My take is that, given the economy and world situation, there are a lot of angry people out there who often find it difficult to see any specific thing to be angry at, so when they see what is, frankly, a minor unfairness like a missing smoke unit, they blow off a bit of steam (wow- I just realized I made a great pun without intending to!).   I figure let them - no harm done.

 

As I said earlier, I'm a bit irked with Lionel but have decided to keep my Berk when it comes in next week.  Its a good model, and I don't actually run any smoke at all, or use the whistle, that often.

>>>I purchased one of these and as I stated earlier I like it in spite of the lack of a $30 smoke unit. While this loco is not as large as some it is still in the range of other Lionel locos I own that were well over $1000 and whistle steam had not even been invented yet.Its  smaller than Lionels own berkshire but has signifigantly more detail.K line had the best prices ever...... and how much did "rock bottom" priceing contribute to their demise?<<<

 

 

 

Well David you finally got it right....WOW! 

 

BUILDER equals Lionel

 

Please tell me you don't equate Builder to Hobby Shop?

 

Please tell me you didn't stick it to your realestate agent for the Builders short falls?  

 

David1 I agree with you but aren't you mixing apples and oranges.  A Car dealer that doesn't order the car with the options you specifically order did not fulfill his contract with you.  In the O gauge train business the only options are Road Names and numbers.  If I provide you the product number you ordered I met my obligation.

If it is damaged, broken, rusty, then you and the hobby shop have recourse to resolve it. 

 

Hobbyshops do take items back all the time.  We also have to deal with the long delays in deliverys that have customers decide for various reasons not to take the pre-order.  To date, our customer bases has called and "ASKED" not just demanded.  In many cases saying if we can't refuse the shipment from the manufacturer or distributor they will take it anyway.  We do our best to help our customers.  Luckily for us they respect us too. 

 

The Manufacturer is the responsible party here, and that is where this issue should be taken.  A few years ago didn't one replace shells that were not the right color? Probably cost them some money, but it was an option, and maybe they had leverage on the Chinese factory, who knows.

 

Clearly, they can't re-engineer the engine, but maybe if the cry is loud enough  directly to them, the can rebate a value, or opt to take it back.  Certainly this one has the potential for greater monetary loss for the company.    G

You can really get the jist of this thread by only reading the shorter posts so that's helpful. Sounds like a lot of people won't be taking their preorders so we may be able to pick one up at blowout prices. For whatever reason Lionel couldn't deliver on this I don't know but it was still a great catalog with lots of cool stuff and I am looking forward to the next one. 

Noting like a new Lionel release to get 3 or 4 pages of reading material. Of course most is the same thing over and over. It will be a sell out and those that buy them will enjoy them. There will soon be a new thread from the owner who receives one with a problem and expects us to resolve it instead of Lionel service.

>>Sounds like a lot of people won't be taking their preorders so we may be able to pick one up at blowout prices<<

 

 

Blowout prices?  Not really.. How about an adjusted price to better reflect true value of an older model not equipped with a heavily touted new feature?

Joe

 

I would be happy to pay around $500 for the B&A version of this "new", former K-Line Berk. Since Lionel didn't include the whistle "steam effect", which doesn't bother me in the slightest since I don't use smoke anyway, I would be more than happy to just add-on an investment cast brass whistle (from PSC), have it weathered, and pull longer trains.

 

 

Lot of heartburn over a model train engine. If it is not as advertised and you are close to cardiac arrest return it to your dealer for a refund and buy something else.

 

GGG, it's hopeless.  We're never gonna see to eye to eye on this... and frankly I don't give a hoot if we do or not.  I've been saying all along that Lionel has to make this right through its distribution channel(s).  If you go back to my earlier posts, I've been pretty clear about it, but you only want to pick apart people's posts to support the agenda you're trying to champion.  Well, it ain't gonna work here.  Folks can see through the gibberish before they're halfway through the first sentence.  Enough already.

 

Most rational folks here have a grip on how to handle their situation.  They'll either settle for what they received, return the product back to the LHS, or refuse delivery of it in the first place.  The proper thing for Lionel to have done here was to lower the product cost throughout its distribution channels.  But it doesn't sound like that's gonna happen voluntarily.  So hopefully, enough folks refuse the product, and Lionel will eventually have to move this stuff at reduced prices anyway.  So they might just as well cut their losses now.

 

David

Give it about a year, they'll show up on the buy sell board for about that.  That's why I'm waiting on.

 

Gary,  that could be an interesting phenomenon.  We're all guilty to some degree of getting caught up in the newest features when they're announced.  After all, as incremental an improvement as they may be, they're all the importers have right now to encourage new sales and add play value to the trains.  So to drop the whistle-steam-effect from production on the Berk -- yet maintain the original price point -- is very puzzling to say the least... especially that we're living in an "operator oriented" era (as opposed to purely a collector's era).

 

I have a hunch that our fickle market will dictate some type of price action for these Berks at some point down the road if enough consumers walk the other way on this one.  Should also be interesting to see what happens with the 2012 Blue Comet locomotive as well.  Most folks have decried the whistle... so I wonder if that has stopped those things from leaping off the dealers' shelves.  When I last checked, Charles Ro didn't have the Blue Comet listed online anymore.  So maybe these little incidental issues aren't so important after all.  Perhaps when all is said and done, folks are just happy to own the locomotive in all it's glorious detail (and smooth performance)... and keep it -- dare I say it -- as part of their "collection".   

 

David

Joe, out of all the responses to this thread you are the only one who has hit the nail SQUARELY on the head. You do indeed see the situation for what it is and have stated it accurate and succinct terms. My compliments to you sir! Andy

Just ordered my Santa Fe version. Would have been nice if it had the steam whistle, but I am more excited about another ATSF steam engine that is mostly accurate (the K-Line was a good model for a great price but got the 3rd Rail version at that time instead,) has Legacy control and sounds, and should have good pulling power.

By the way, has anyone got any video of these new Berks?  Would love to see and here one in operation.  Was thinking about maybe getting one.  Thanks.

After all this BS Moaning. who gives a flipping rip about a video

 

 

Marty

Doug posted a brief video video on the first page, sound is first rate, as good as any legacy loco, interesting squeaks and groans in the background and a great whistle . FWIW the "stack smoke" pumps out heavy volumes on the lowest setting.The smaller diameter drivers allow it to negotiate o-48 with no problem, contrary to the o-54 rating.However.................

Hi Doug, it sure does sound awesome,and it's beautiful too. Enjoy it

Thanks for posting the video. Alex

After reading three pages of this I think the best thing to do is wait until the price gets to around $750,and at that time, buy one.. Fred

Good advice, I've contacted Lionel by phone and email and they are doing nothing about it, merely quoting their disclaimer.I would think at the very LEAST they could have offered a 10% rebate.  No more preorders for me, I'll be paying more attention to MTH's offerings from now on. Let'em sit on these for a year and then maybe you can pay only for what you are getting.

 I own 2 K-Line Berks and buy basically anything B&A. I finally got a chance to run my new Lionel Berk. All I can say it is a fantastic runner with the best sound I've heard on my RR. It is priced high considering you could have bought the K-Line for 650 originally and 450 at blowout. The same cosmetics other than the real coal load.

 Lionel's marketing may have dropped the ball as far as price and excluding an advertised feature. This engine is getting a bad rap because of it. It's loaded with detail on the boiler and is pretty correct engine wise if your a B&A fan. I would have preferred the smaller tender but they did receive some Hudson hand me downs.

 Everyone is waiting for these to be blown out. These were built with existing tooling and were in a catalog with many choices. Most roadnames aren't what you would call mainstream roads. Even a builders demo was offered. I'm willing to bet there weren't that many of each roadname built.

 I model only the B&A and New Haven. When they are offered I buy.

Now you have done it.  I am getting my Lima 2- rail Berk ready for the bay.  I had no idea these things were worth more than a couple bills.  Maybe a 2- rail really isn't worth what the 3- rail models are.  It doesn't even have stack smoke.

 

I admire those of you who can put up with smoke - I got a snootful in the 1990s and get sickened even now thinking about it.  Maybe they changed the formula?

 

Here is mine - note the lack of those vertical boiler sheets:

 

 

 

 

 

 

If Lionel would have "shorted" us on the tender, the locomotive would have been even more overpriced

 

 

 

"I would have preferred the smaller tender but they did receive some Hudson hand me downs."

 

Wow! That's harsh. Not to mention coming from they guy that I always through had "Lionel" embroidered on his shorts!