New Berk Arrived...Not Happy

 I received one as well. Ordered the B&A. I have both that K-Line offered and they are a huge bang for the buck and are great runners.This is my first Legacy engine and I'm anxious to see how it stacks up performance wise. The K-Lines were high on detail. The only knock I have is the coal load. Hopefully for the price Lionel has raised the bar  on that end as well.

Who will be first with photos on your layout??????

Hi Doug good luck, and I'm with Sam who will be the first to show photo's

and a video.

I have always wanted the Lima Demonstrator Berk. I grew up about 30 miles from Lima OH.  I tried to find the K-line version and was not successful.  I hope that I'm not unhappy.

 

Doug

Looking forward to pictures and video.

Count me as not happy.  NO WHISTLE STEAM SMOKE EFFECT!!  NOT AS ADVERTISED

 

Doug

Yeah - its the second feature listed in the catalog, isn't it.  I pick up mine this weekend.

Strangely, although 'Whistle steam' is mentioned in the catalogue, it is not among the features listed if you look up the locomotives with the product search. I guess that this is one of those cases where the 'Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design and availability.' disclaimer on the inside front cover applies. Not that that helps to avoid disappointment in any way. 

Nicole,

 

It was still listed about 1/2 hour ago on the Lionel product listing web page.  It was just removed, i'm sure due to my phone call with them.

 

I'm as big of Lionel fan as there is, but i believe those that purchased these engines should be refunded some money.  The Mikado's listed for $900 w/o whistle steam.

 

Doug

Yes I know that the PM Berks were about the same, but the price is basically the same as the Mallets w/whistle steam and the berks were advertised as such. The Pacifics are $1,100 with whistle steam.  Yes it has builder plates.

 

I like the looks of the engine and it sounds great.  I'm just really bummed about the whistle steam.

 

Doug

Lionel has made such mistakes before, but they usually make up for it in some way. I remember when they came out with the Girls set remake they left out the Pull-More motor as was advertised. The unit came with a DC motor and that upset alot of people. Lionel sent us all a special box car to make up for the disappointment.

I bet if you all keep up some polite pressure they may be coaxed  to do something similar for you.

 

In any case, I hope your new engines are great runners and you have many happy years playing with them.  

Would love to see a video!

Or at least a photo or three before the clock strikes TWELVE!

Here's first picture.

 

 

 

Oh no wait, that's my K-line Lima Berkshire. Don

Beautiful photo Don!

How's the new layout coming? Careful not to get hurt surfing out there, especially 'at your age'...

I would go to Lionels facebook page and post something about this.  they will give some kind of an answer, might take awhile.

 

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Lionel-LLC/135645573344

 

That is indeed disappointing.  The whistle steam effect is a lot fun!  I had planned to purchase the ATSF Berk.....but I may pass now. 

 

I am curious as to why the feature was not included as originally advertised in the catalog.  In the past, when such omissions/errors have occurred did Lionel offer an explanation?  Shouldn't the lack of this feature push the price point down?  Although I should know better than to think that, as I have learned you can not translate features into the Lionel pricing structure.

 

Also, wouldn't Lionel have done the R & D and built a mock-up prior to publishing the feature in the catalog?  I have the CC2 and it has to have a shorter boiler than the Berk, so I would imagine the second smoke generator would have fit (of course I say that having never seen the interior of a K-Line Berk shell).

 

These are just the ramblings of a disappointed potential Berk customer.

It may have been as simple as lack of proof-reading of the catalog (someone may have been cut-and-pasting features and did one too many), or there was a screw-up at the factory (easy to lose stuff in translation when different languages are involved).  In any case, someone dropped the ball here, but Lionel should be given time to respond to this issue before they are crucified for it.

 

Andy

When I worked in broadcast TV we checked and double checked all graphics from the supers, names and titles to credits. Everything. Two sets of eyes the first and second run through. Then another set of eyes as a third check. I can't believe it was a proof-reading mistake. My guess would be it was planned to have a second smoke unit from the start. It wouldn't fit and no one thought to change the copy. Don

Sam, no surfing for me but we did just buy a two person ocean kayak. Yes, I am working on the layout. I'm so glad I bought three K-line Berkshires at discount prices when I could. I noticed the E-bay price is back up to the original price.

I wonder if the Lionel smoke unit will fit in them. Don

The Lionel catalog carries a disclaimer indicating that all descriptions are subject to change.  I imagine that all the big companies have the same statement.

 

Whistle steam is a feature I would NOT do without. If future locos did not have it, I would pass. 

 

Scrappy

 

That statement provides corporations a WIDE latitude of "wiggle room"... but fortunately, most companies stick pretty close to what's been advertised to avoid too much in the way of customer backlash. 

 

In this case, who knows what actually happened.  I mean... really... the catalog clearly hypes "whistle steam" as a new feature on this locomotive -- even calling attention to it.  So for the feature not to be there is a MAJOR blunder.  And given the price-point we're talking about here... unless the locomotive is otherwise nothing short of STUNNING in terms of detail level, performance or having an addition feature that wasn't advertised, then I suspect we'll see this locomotive hitting "blowout special sales" in a few months -- if, of course, consumers vote with their wallets.  If, on the other hand, consumers accept it for what it is, then Lionel will likely just let things run their course.  The dealers, as usual, are caught in the middle on stuff like this.

 

I'd have no problem whatsoever passing on a pre-ordered product at this price-point, if it was not delivered as advertised.

 

David

I certainly agree. That was also a big factor in my decision to buy.  Whistle steam & Cruise are the two best features to be added to the hobby.  (since tmcc)

 

I guess I will have to stop pre-ordering.

 

Doug

I'll post some pics in a bit.

 

Doug

All I ask of a model locomotive I would want to buy is it that it looks good and runs well.  Features, or lack thereof do not affect my buying decision.

 

Rusty

David,  I sure hope you buy directly from Lionel and not LHS.  You ordered it from the store and they supplied it.  They didn't make it or misrepresent it, that would be the manufacturer.  How many $1000 engines do you think a small business can eat?  I think it would be more appropriate to take it, then contact Lionel and send it back to them for a refund.   G

Pics

Revised Video

  

Doug

I am particularly interested in this thread, because I pre-ordered a Berk through my LHS an anticipated a call this afternoon telling me I can pick it up. 

 

I don't know what I am going to do, stand on principle and refuse it or go ahead and take a loco I really want (I do not have even one scale Berk).   I am paying full list at my LHS, and it was advertised with whistle steam effect - and yes, its not a critical feature, but Lionel set the bar of expectations at the $1,100 price point with its previous locos so I really expect them to adhere to their promise, and frankly this will probably stand out as partially obsolete since its likely to become a fairly standard feature in the future.

>>> I sure hope you buy directly from Lionel and not LHS.  You ordered it from the store and they supplied it.  They didn't make it or misrepresent it, that would be the manufacturer.  How many $1000 engines do you think a small business can eat?  I think it would be more appropriate to take it, then contact Lionel and send it back to them for a refund. <<

 

 

What makes the LHS any different then the guy who ordered it?   Seems to me Lionel misrepresented the piece to them as well..

Joe

GGG made a good point.  It is tricky business.  The consumer, the dealer and the manufacturer all act on good faith based on the information available when a product is pre-ordered.  I expect the engine to have the features advertised, the dealer expects me to make the purchase, and the manufacturer expects to ship x units to the dealer. When one of the parties does not live up to their end of the bargain someone will inevitably get burned.  I do not know how the arrangement between Lionel and the dealer is structured, but it seems the dealer has the greatest potential for getting burned.

 

I agreed to purchase the product advertised in the catalog at the price set by the dealer.  The product Lionel delivered to the dealer is simply not that product.  As a consumer, I feel I have the right to refuse to purchase the engine. 

 

I purchased the 4-12-2 a few months ago.  The manual features pre-production photographs of the engine and tender illustrating the upgrades from the older TMCC version (volume knob, whistle smoke fluid port, etc).  I would imagine (hope) Lionel took those photos before they advertised the engine in the catalog.  I am curious how the R & D/product development folks communicate with the marketing department.  At what point in the development of this Berkshire engine was the whistle steam feature removed? 

 

Why couldn't the decision to remove the whistle steam feature have been communicated to dealers and consumers before the consumer brings home their new toy only to find it does not have the whistle steam feature?  Lionel is trying to use the tools of our information age (facebook, blog, Mike's videos on you tube), and for the most part they are doing a very good job of reaching out to us.  It is just unfortunate that this one slipped through the crack.  Unless Lionel reduces the MSRP, I will let this engine slip by too.

 

Well... more accurately... "I ordered IT from the store and they supplied THAT -- not IT".    

 

As a small business owner myself, I would never expect my clients to take something that was not made to spec.  End of discussion.  How is that any different when I'm the consumer?  Why should I have to buy something that wasn't made as advertised?  Then take on the burden of dealing with THEIR supplier for a refund.  WTF??? 

 

The LHS should be the entity returning the product -- or better yet, never even accept delivery of the product if it was THAT major of an issue.

 

I made this point on another thread just last week or so, when someone had inquired about Lionel's Backshop many years ago.  There were issues with it, and the dealer I ordered it from refused delivery of the product by Lionel until they got it right.  And THAT's what should have happened in that case. 

 

Gee, if what you're suggesting is the appropriate strategy, then why the heck should I even need to place the order through the dealer in the first place???    What value is the dealer even bringing to the table at that point?  Sorry, I just don't get it.

 

David

 

 

P.S.  For the record, this is not an item I pre-ordered.  And it's strictly a personal decision as to what tips the scale as a MAJOR deviation when what's delivered is not quite what's described in a catalog.  Probably the most appropriate route is for Lionel to decrease the product cost to the dealer, thereby opening the door for the dealer to offer a lower price to the consumer.  If the dealer can't move the product as delivered, then it goes back to Lionel with no penalty to the dealer.  (But in reality, I suspect at the appropriate price-point, folks out there will buy these units if they're otherwise great locomotives.)

Does the hobby shop eat it? Or are they refunded monies in this situation?  I would march this item right back. Regardless, its important to send a message.
I am a strong Lionel supporter and consumer. However its time to improve our confidence in their products

I'm going to go by my LHS today and talk with them about this very topic: can they return the loco to Lionel or do they eat it if I refuse.  I ordered through my LHS, even though I knew I could both buy cheaper and have it quicker (I'd already have it it I bought from Klein) because I want to support them.  I would think they could return defective products and in some sense this is.  I like the loco otherwise however.  Still don't know what I am going to do.

 

In addition, I can't imagine Lionel is not going to respond to its customer base over this.  Seems incredibly stupid for them not to do some some of mea culpa and adjustment/credit for customers who keep the locos . . .

Doug N posted some pretty good photos above, and I now realize the model is Lionel's "reproduction" of the former K-Line Lima Berk. I also have one of the K-Line B&A Berks, and it certainly is a VERY well detailed scale model. However, unless Lionel completely redesigned the internal motor/drive system, don't plan on pulling very big trains with this model.

 

For some odd reason, the K-Line design folks (Bob Gruba?), came up with the design of installing the motor in the boiler backwards, instead of in the firebox, which is the widest part of the locomotive. Thus, the motors are smaller in diameter. My model barely handles 15 cars, on flat track!

 

Sure is a good looking model though. Plus, I agree with Rusty; I could care less about "smoke out of the whistle", or ANY smoke for that matter. 

Aren't there laws protecting the consumer in this situation? Isn't this false advertisement?

I only hope that someday I can have enough spare change to pay my monthly bills, pay off my credit cards, mortgage, student loans, wife's student loans, send my daughter to college in 18 years, purchase a vehicle that was not a year old when I bought it, put food on the table, and pay $1100 for a toy!

 

Someday, maybe when I get older...

 

Whistle steam or not, all I can do is dream...

Never accept anything that is not what has been advertised. If I was expecting this engine and it did not have the things that were advertised, back it goes to the dealer.

No J Daddy,  All catalogs have a disclaimer that states an item might be different than what is shown.

Bummer, I guess that applies to added features as well. I could stomach a dimensional issue, but a full blown missing whistle feature I would be little perturbed.

>>>I could stomach a dimensional issue, but a full blown missing whistle feature I would be little perturbed.<<

 

Maybe Lionel should take a look at the MTH playbook and just quit playing games from one engine to another with features...

I noticed MTH threw in remote operating pantographs in its RK GG1's and didn't even advertise it.. 

Thats on top of full DCS control with all the bells and whistles in engines priced lower then a basic no feature engine from Lionel.  

At some point even the most loyal loyalists cry uncle..

Here's the answer... Give DCS another look and be done with it...

Joe

 

There have been discrepancies between the catalog description and final product before, and there will be after.  That's why the catalogs have a disclaimer.

 

If you call or write Lionel, you will probably get a response similar to what I received when I inquired about the missing figures in the cab of the Flyer Challenger:

 

"Hello, they decided to not make the figures for the American Flyer Challenger.  Sorry for the inconvenience we can refund the train if you don't want it."

 

Ultimately, you alone have to decide how much of a show-stopper the lack of whistle smoke is.  In my case,missing figures weren't and I kept the locomotive because it meets my main criteria:  It looks good and runs well.

 

Rusty

I revised the original video, it's a little better quality.

 

Doug

I used my wife's FB account last night to see if there would be a reduction in the Berk's MSRP.  To their credit they answered quickly....here is their response

 

Lionel LLC Cathy, we had intended to include this feature since the beginning of the project, but late production problems (after the catalog had been run) forced us to cut it. Unfortunately, there will not be any price reduction. <button class="stat_elem as_link cmnt_like_link" name="like_comment_id[27633049]" title="Like this comment" type="submit" value="27633049"></button>

 

It is a nice engine, but I am going to pass.  For me, the lack of a steam whistle at the same MSRP is a "show stopper".  Volume II will be out soon enough.

>>>we had intended to include this feature since the beginning of the project, but late production problems (after the catalog had been run) forced us to cut it. Unfortunately, there will not be any price reduction. <<

 

Amazing admission...

They had the time..

Makes me wonder why Lionel didn't bother to inform dealers and customers about the change?

Joe 

I've made a decision after looking at some videos and thinking about it.  I'm going to go ahead and get my pre-ordered Berk.  My LHS has acted in good faith and I do want a scale Berkshire. 

 

But I am going to think a bit more about how much and if I trust Lionel in the future, and my enthusiasm for them has taken a real pounding here, not just because they left out this feature, but because of the that message: it conveys a real lack on regard for their customers. 

Can anyone who actually has this model please look at the underside, and confirm whether the motor is in the BOILER (leaning forward toward the smokestack, as on the K-Line models), or in the FIREBOX area (as per accepted engineering practice, for a larger motor?)

 

I think Jack (Hot Water) hit the nail on the head.  The original Lima berks were pretty small locos compared to later Super Power.  If the motor is in the firebox area, as I would suspect given this loco's premium price, there's probably no room for a second smoke generator and circuit board needed for the whistle steam.  

 

I don't personally care about whistle steam, it requires frequent refills and it's often hard to see the smoke.  But I never liked the K-Line motor arrangement, and personally wouldn't pay near $1000 for a loco with motor arrangement.  Along with a smaller motor, there are a lot of bad things about that setup, and that's why most companies don't build them that way.  The worm gear, flywheel, and Legacy optical sensor are all permanently pressed onto the motor.  If ANY one of those things fails you have to replace like-for-like, or the loco becomes a static display piece.  

 

There has been a lot of product "evolution" at Lionel lately.  While that's generally a good thing, it could make it tough to locate spare parts down the road.  Many recent locos are built this way, but I'm not sure how standardized this gear / motor / flywheel / sensor combo is across the Mikado, K-4, etc., it would be nice to know if they're the same.  With the conventional design (motor mounted in the firebox), there's a little more room and each of these components can be replaced separately.  You also get a larger, better quality Canon motor.

 

Someone please confirm where the motor is in this loco, or maybe Mike Regan (Mikado) will chime in and give us the lowdown about what happened to the planned whistle steam feature.

My $0.02,

Ted

I did not order this engine, But no smoke from the whistle would not keep me from buying it If it was something I wanted. As for DCS to each his own they say. I prefer the system that will run every brand of engine but one, without adding anything else including a bunch of wires.

Ted,

 

The previous steam locomotive models that where originally K-Line products, that Lionel has recently brought out, ALL have their motor mounted "backwards" in the boiler. Lionel did NOT "re-engineer" any of the former K-Line, scale size steam models, so I suspect this Lima Berk is just the same as when K-Line built them.

 

Darned shame. But, re-engineering them would certainly have been pretty costly for Lionel, and most customers don't operate large trains anyway.

I didn't take it to mean sounds. I think MTH has a far better system of electronics uniformity throughout their entire product line, from Rail King to Premier. Open up ANY MTH product, from steam to diesel to electric, and you will see EXACTLY the sam electronics "package", including even the wire harness!

 

Although Jon Z is making great strides at Lionel involving Lionel product engineering, Lionel has been FAMOUS for every product being different inside, concerning the electronics layout & harness.

Beside the upgraded electronics and wireless tether, how are these Berks different from the K-line version ? Any upgrade in details...

 

A side by side pictures would be interesting to see.

 

 

It appears to be in the Firebox area, the same as my other berks.

 

Doug

I didn't take it to mean sounds. I think MTH has a far better system of electronics uniformity throughout their entire product line, from Rail King to Premier. Open up ANY MTH product, from steam to diesel to electric, and you will see EXACTLY the sam electronics "package", including even the wire harness!

 

Although Jon Z is making great strides at Lionel involving Lionel product engineering, Lionel has been FAMOUS for every product being different inside, concerning the electronics layout & harness.<<

 

Exactly my point!!! Sound quality is another issue..

Consistency is everything., especially when its a $1100 model.

And lets not forget the long MTH record on cost uniformity. 

The price rarely changes with whatever the market will bear when features are added or improved..

Joe

 

just curious, is the berk you all are talking about the same as this one?

 

http://www.lionel.com/Products/Finder/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductNumber=6-11212&expandBranch=0&Keywords=&CategoryID=495&RailLineID=&CatalogId=

 

because this berk will pull over 35 cars with no problem.

No. Completely different model.

Reading this thread makes me glad I already have two K-Line Berkshires, both acquired on the secondary market. I wouldn't want to pay Lionel's price for basically the same engine with a few upgrades. 

 

Speaking of upgrades, I assume Lionel did get rid of the puffer smoke unit and build theirs with a fan-type smoke unit with synchronized puff and chuff, right? The puffer is a bit of a drawback on the old K-Line Berks, although the fantastic level of detail is more important to me. Can someone confirm the smoke unit upgrade?

thanks hot water.

However, if a good part of my decision to PREORDER is based on a company PROMISE that it will have W, X, Y *AND* Z and then it doesn't have Z, I am going to be disappointed.  Especially if it is a major feature.

As big of a fan of Lionel products as I am, I think I would be pretty disappointed that a feature such as the whistle steam effect was missing from the final product.  This is a pretty major feature to have removed.  I can accept catalog mistakes but this is a pretty big mistake considering a lot of us now buy based on the Legacy features a unit may have.

I am indeed very disappointed by the lack of the steam whistle feature.....and I feel better now because Marty is a voice of reason around here.  I too am a big fan of Lionel, and intend to stay a big fan, but mistakes of this caliber take their toll.  I am not going buying this engine because I no longer perceive a balance between the maintained MSRP and the play value.   Plus, Lionel did an incredibly poor job of communicating the removal of this feature from the engine....down right rude in fact.

Marty, I certainly agree.  This a much bigger deal than the missing builders plates for the Mikes (which I'm still waiting for).  What bothers me the most isthey say they found out too late for the catalog but seemingly made no effort to communicate this to theirdealers and customers. In this age of email, Facebook, this forum etc. itis very disappointing. They only changed their web page to indicate no whistle steam after I called them.  I have a lot of Lionel engines (more than i should) and only one MTH and two K-line (1 of which is for sale) I understand that buying them has been my choice but it's just so disappointing.  My engine has a couple of other issues that are not worth mentioning here and it is going back to Lionel for repair.  As I said in my starting this post I wanted this engine and haven't been able to find the K-line version, so will get over this.

 

Doug

I'm not sure rude is the word but it was poorly communicated.  It might have been until it was brought up by the OP that Lionel never noticed the catalog vs. actual product error.  That being said though, it is a pretty big error considering.  It's not a small insignificant feature.

I have no stake in this because I didnt buy one, but based on the reply on facebook, it seems that rather than delay it and make it happen, they shoved it out the door incomplete. Seems odd to me considering we're all used to the delays, and I think we'd all rather have it be a little late and complete, than missing one of, if not THE reason to buy it.

The little whoopsies happen from time to time, it usually seems to happen with marker lights (the DD35s come to mind, and there was also a run of MTH Dash 8's advertised w/ markers and came without... not that it matters here, but MTH offered to buy it back from you if the lack of marker lights was a deal breaker, even Atlas screws up now and then (the black N&W Berwicks that were just released should have been brown, they offered to buy it back)).

I think we can all manage to go on without a couple LEDs, but to leave out the reason to buy it seems to me like a reason to leave it in the store.

There seems to be a major disconnect between Lionel's catalog and what actually comes through. Sometimes they nail it, and sometimes they're way off. I suppose if these all work right out of the box then thats a step in the right direction, but it seems like almost everytime something comes out, they've managed to do something to either annoy or tick everyone off (for example, the S3 Mars light, or the Blue Comet Whistle).

If I had to guess, I'd say that whistle steam is probably worth a good $200 of MSRP over what it would be without it. They can do a little better than "we just couldnt make it happen" over that amount. I suppose the least they could do is throw in a matching caboose if they didnt want to knock down the MSRP, but either way, they'll all be on blowout this fall if no one picks up their orders.

>>I'm not sure rude is the word but it was poorly communicated.  It might have been until it was brought up by the OP that Lionel never noticed the catalog vs. actual product error.  That being said though, it is a pretty big error considering.  It's not a small insignificant feature.<<

 

The operative word you're looking for is "confident" 

Joe 

 

 

CentralFan, I can relate. My son WAS in the same situation, only he was deep into HO (cough, cough). Sorry to say your situation doesn't apply to a lot of our fellow forumites, myself included. I troll eBay looking for all the junk O scale engines, and if I want a smoking whistle, I'll figure out for myself how to do it. That way, I have nothing to complain about.

David, I think I was respectful in my comments.  You love to give us your opinions unasked, so don't respond with childish sarcasm.  Just because your a small business owner doesn't mean you understand the small business of a Hobby Shop, let alone that your good at it.

 

The LHS is not a Supplier.  A LHS does not have the same relationship with the manufacture like a car dealership as example.  In some cases, a LHS may not even be a registered Lionel Dealer.  You asked for that Lionel Engine, your LHS purchased it for you via a Distributor.  LHS are not WALMARTs.  Big box stores are capable of handling returns even when the customer doesn't deserve to be able to return it.  They do, but if it gets out of hand then the cost of those returns are rolled into price increases.  If you are selling a product that you manufacture and select the suppliers, then yes you are accountable because of your choices.

 

Frankly, you would need to have a dicussion with your dealer.  If your a good customer he may eat it to keep you happy, if your finicky and do this often, he may tell you to pound sand next time you want a special order.

 

It just amazes me how something you do, then is no longer your problem and the LHS has to solve it as if he had any control over the issues.   He doesn't know it doesn't have steam whistle until you tell him, he didn't order from Lionel directly.  This isn't something that is defective, it is something that isn't originally as advertised, but the manufacturer clearly states that can happen.  And there is a body of evidence that this does happen.  Which is why more folks DO NOT do early buys.

 

Just amazes me how some folks are quick to push a problem on to some one else to solve.

 

It was only a few months ago some one was criticizing a dealer because he didn't want to special order an engine for some one.  Well here is why!

 

It is like punishing one child for the actions of the other.  I still say your actions are with Lionel.  That is where you take this issue.  The LHS had no control over this, no input, no recourse other than to drop the line and shut his doors.  G

Oh great...I have the I.C.R.R. on the way...don't have any locos with whistle steam...so I guess I still don't!!!  Did we determine whether they have the "good" motor or the "bad" motor?

The one thing I've noticed amidst all this wailing and gnashing of keyboards is that NOBODY has stated that "they'll never buy another Lionel product again" because of the whistle feature being dropped from this locomotive...

 

I guess all will be forgiven when the next catalog comes out...

 

Rusty

You can't alway go by what Lionel puts on the box either. My Lone Ranger General say die-cast engine body on the box and guess what?

I don't think there was any room in those Berks for whistle smoke,  they are not large engines.

 

Neil

I find it interesting that a group of people whose average age is 40+( a presumption on my part) is even having this discussion. As stated above I can only dream of having to worry about a missing feature and a $1100.00 toy. My research indicates that $1100.00 could actually emount to 1/2 my monthly social security benifits when and if I were to retire in 10 years. And that is based on todays calculations. Who knows what will happen between now and then.

 

Lionel has made these blunders before. They apologize, the buyers vent about it, next cataloge comes out and everyone jumps on the high end stuff again. What good does it do to rant about it. Don't like it...take it back or don't buy it. In the end Lionel does not really care. It's like sports teams. The league makes a decision that nobady likes and everyone gets worked up and then the games sell out

 

Be happy that you are in a position to even consider making a purchase like this. Criticize me all you want. I will go home and play with my $50.00 RMT Beeps that I buy used here on the forum when I can. You will have to excuse me now. I am going to dig through the recycle totes at work for some wire. 

 

GGG, this is a forum for exchanging our ideas and opinions.  You seem to have an axe to grind on this topic... whether you are a dealer or not, or speaking on behalf of a LHS... I don't know... although it sure sounds like it.

 

So let me just say this... if the dealer isn't going to stand behind the product line that he or she sells, then he or she has no business carrying that product line and making a profit on the deal in the first place.  There's a risk in every business... and you get nothing for nothing in life.  What you're describing is a situation where the middleman (i.e., the LHS or nationwide dealer, whatever) is assuming no responsibility for carrying the product line.  He's there to make a profit on the deal (which I'm sure you're next going to argue is next to nothing), and then you expect the end consumer to deal with the importer if there's a problem?  Next thing you'll be suggesting is that the consumer contact the factory in China for a refund.    Again, it goes back to what I asked earlier... what value is the dealer even bringing to the table at that point, if they can't even work an issue like this for the client?  They're DOOMED if that's how you view the role of the dealer... as if they're entitled to make a profit just because they ordered the product and are selling it to consumers regardless of if it's made as advertised.

 

You seem to react as if I'm suggesting the dealer get stuck with it... well go back and READ my post again.  I specifically stated that Lionel is ultimately responsible for making good on this to the dealer in this scenario (if the client refuses the product) -- either Lionel takes the product back, or they lower the product cost so the dealer can move the product at a more realistic price point for consumers who will buy it with fewer features.  If Lionel isn't going to drop the price, then THEY deserve to get stuck with the product -- in which case, they'll want to unload it through their distribution channel months later at blow-out levels rather than hold the inventory forever.... which really means they should have lowered the product cost on the original transaction in the first place.  If the supply chain is too complicated for them to adjust product cost, that's not the consumer's problem.

 

Look... it's clear that there was a mis-step here in terms of communication.  Whether products are manufactured overseas or here, SOMEBODY has to be held accountable when products aren't produced as advertised.  As always, communications and damage-control are critical.  This ain't rocket science.

 

BTW, there was no "childish sarcasm" whatsoever directed at you.  In fact, there wasn't even anything that sarcastic in my post.  We simply disagree on the role of the dealer in this scenario.  Doesn't mean I don't like you or am attacking you.  We simply disagree.  Get it?

 

David

 

Funny Rusty....I was typing basically the same thing while yours was being posted. Lionel in the end does not care. Literaly they can put anything in that catalog to get the consumer to "bite". Once hooked it's Oh well, we couldn't make it work. Sorry.

>>>Spoke with Lionel,they aren't doing anything about it. " Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, design, and availability.Verify features on product package". <<

 

I would think elimination of a fairly expensive smoke unit without a price adjustment rises above a standard disclaimer.

Joe

I think you might be surprised how little the smoke unit costs on the Bill of Materials.

 

When some S Scalers raised the question to S Helper Service some years ago about eliminating the fan driven smoke unit from their 2-8-0 in order to lower the price for "scalers," the response was that eliminating the smoke unit would affect the retail price by less than 5 dollars.

 

Rusty

why doesn't someone contact Lionel Chief Executive Jerry Calabrese direct.

They were able to put the whistle smoke in the PE JR Berk...

Rick, which one did you get?  

 

For those of you that already have your locos, which road names have a traditional pilot (pointy "cow catcher" like the K-Line model did), and which have foot boards (like Lionel's L-2 Mohawk and the postwar 1615 switcher?)  

 

After the 11212 Berkshire pilot debate on here, I encouraged Lionel to put BOTH types of pilots in the box.  If they can sell locos with 3 different smokestacks, why not two different pilots?  Heck, why not an alternate set of wheels and axles WITHOUT traction tires?  Doing this would give operators some flexibility without adding much to the cost.

 

And yes, a high-quality Canon motor with separable flywheel and worm gear is a MAJOR plus in lieu of a smoking whistle, IMO.  Thanks to all who have posted so far!

Stogey~"I find it interesting that a group of people whose average age is 40+( a presumption on my part) is even having this discussion."

 

I (not quite 40 yet) for one am grateful that this discussion topic was created.  I am fortunate enough to be able to purchase a $1,200.00 engine.  I realize this is a lot of money for a toy, and when I decide to spend that kind of money I want the product to be everything I expect it to be. 

 

In this case the product does not meet my expectations and therefore I will not purchase it.  Had I not read this thread I would have ordered the engine payed S & H to my home, haggled with Lionel to return it, paid S & H to Ohio and then waited 4 to 6 weeks to get my refund.  So...yes I am very glad that those impacted by Lionel's decision to not include the whistle steam feature "wailed and gnashed at the keyboard" as Rusty put it.

 

So thanks to whoever started this thread you saved me time, money and considerable aggravation. 

Interesting thread.  Glad to hear that they moved the motor to the firebox, and at some point, if they did the same thing to the USRA light mikado, I may ditch my K-line, and get one of those. 

 

As for the rest of the discussion on the steam whistle, I personally don't use smoke anymore, but many people who do want the feature, and if it was advertised, didn't get what was advertised.  It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, and the different motor far outweighs my concerns with the locomotive.  However, if the feature is that important to the purchaser, they should not reward bad behaviour on the part of Lionel, they should take the locomotive back to where it was purchased, and claim a full refund.

 

Regards,

GNNPNUT

quote:

The one thing I've noticed amidst all this wailing and gnashing of keyboards is that NOBODY has stated that "they'll never buy another Lionel product again" because of the whistle feature being dropped from this locomotive...

 

Years ago I preordered the LTI reproduction of the 164 log loader based on the picture in their catalog. Lionel delivered something completely different. I have preodered exactly two items since.
I passed on preordering the upcoming reproduction 726 Berks because Lionel could not commit to how they would appear, and I passed on preordering the new diecast frame 2023 style Alcos  due to uncertainly as to how they would be made.

 

Little by little, folks may get tired of the disappointments, and turn elsewhere.

I totally agree, it's interesting to read that the argument of money comes into play. The bottom line is ethics! And a few manufacturers need to be sent a message

Omitting Builders Plates is no big deal as they can be had for a few bucks. Whistle smoke is much bigger deal. Check what JDS gets to do the mod.

I gave up pre ordering a few years ago after getting burned on some 6464 remakes. Not a lot of bucks lost but it was enough to make me loose faith in catalog promises.

 

Pete

Well now, THAT information is really interesting. If Lionel has offered this new Berk in the B&A lettering, I may just HAVE TO spring for one of these. Even though I already have the K-Line version which does't pull much, this new Lionel model should bull the walls down.

 

I could give a rat's *** about the "smoking whistle", since I don't use smoke anyway (it sure messes up the weathering, track, and the scenery)!

 

What is the going DISCOUNTED price on these new models?

Really? How do you get CORRECT builder plates for individual steam locomotive models, such as Lima, ALCO, and Baldwin?

 

Amazing that in this day and age that they didn't make mention of this on their Facebook page at the very least.  Ok, so it was too late to change the catalog, so why not get the word out via Facebook or the various online forums (such as this one).

GGG,

I appreciate the points you made.  The shop I buy from sells engines at the same price before and after Lionel ships them.  I am curious though, why do hobby shops offer pre-order promotions?  I doubt it is a completely altruistic endeavor.  I do not own or work for a hobby shop, but I imagine the shops that offer pre-order promotions do so to entice consumers to buy and therefore increase the number of units they can "safely" order from the manufacturer.  I understand that most shops can't carry hundreds of engines as overhead.  So really, isn't everyone hedging their bets?

 

In this game, Lionel pits the consumer against the shop, and in this case neither is responsible for the lack the steam whistle feature. 

 

Ultimately, the customer is always right.  I won't purchase a product that I do not value and I won't buy from a retailer that does not provide me the level of customer service I expect.  The nature of the relationship between Lionel and their retailers, the mark up per unit,  hold back/rebates, none of that factors into my decision making process.  It is literally not my business.  I don't sell toys, I just buy them.

OK... after reading that last post by GGG, I'm reduced to just speaking with emoticons right now... namely, .  That's about all I can say.  WOW...

 

 

 

 

Why is it that the more you speak about integrity, and what's right and wrong... I feel the need to hold on tighter to my wallet.  Thank God my builder made me feel MUCH better that the house he was building for us would actually be the one that was in the plans.  I can see it now if he took the position...

 

Well, you purchased the first home in this subdivision at a great price.  I agreed to deliver a home for your family... nothing more. Oh, you mean you REALLY wanted me to build the home that's outlined in your blueprint???  Oh, I'm sorry... we changed our mind about mid-way through the construction because my sub-contractors decided they were over-committed with other projects. 

 

I mean... really... you can't even DEFEND that, and my head is spinning even trying to understand anyone who would even TRY to defend that way of thinking.  Downright SCARY when you think about.

 

Like I said earlier...  WOW!!!

 

I actually hate the phrase "the customer is always right", because it's been misused so often.  But what you stated so well afterwards is 100% right on the mark.

 

I always have to laugh when folks (and businesses) go on-and-on about how "difficult" it is to work with certain suppliers and make a profit because of this and that.  Well, newsflash to all those folks:  NONE of that MATTERS to the consumers, 'cause they don't CARE about those issues... nor do they want to hear about them.

 

Regarding the pre-order angle... I think you're also right on the mark.  Good business owners know how to make as many transactions as possible become a "win-win" scenario.  Win-Win is good business, and it's a good recipe for repeat clientele in a highly competitive landscape as this one.  Most shops offering "early buy programs" do so as an incentive to increase their order volume.  In this kind of business, VOLUME is a good thing, since most shops would have us believe they don't make tons of profit on a single transaction... thus, most successful toy train businesses operate on a high volume / low profit model (as opposed to a low volume / high profit model).

 

As for the gibberish that GGG was going on about in terms of T's & C's of the pre-order, that was making my head spin and it would be enough for me to do a 180 and march right out the door if a dealer NEEDED that level of a contract to pre-order something for his/her clients.  Thankfully, that's not the case with the boys and girls who operate in the big leagues.  And I'd bet that 99% of the time, the importers pretty much deliver on what they describe in the catalog.  Thankfully, this is one of those exceptions... but oh what I tempest in a teapot it can cause when different people think so differently.

 

OK... I'm signing off on this topic... I didn't even order the darn locomotive to begin with. 

 

David

This will be my only comment, I will not in any circumstance take delivery of a product that is not what was advertised. It goes back to the dealer no if ands or buts. I refused a new car from a dealer because it was not what I ordered. It stayed on the lot. I told them get me what I ordered, nothing more nothing less. It is the same in this instance, I don't care what disclaimers they have, give me what was advertised or I don't take delivery. BTW I worked in retail for 48 years and the customer is NOT always right. 

I should clarify.  The customer is not always knowledgeable.  But the customer is always right when it comes to choosing whether or not to spend their money.  So David1, whether or not you had chosen to purchase the car or leave it on the lot as you did, you perceived yourself to be "right".  Retailers/manufacturers have to convince consumers they are right to spend, for example, $1200.00 on a toy.  They have to convey value. 

 

If consumers don't purchase a product neither the retailers nor the manufacturers make a profit.  Companies that create products that convince us they are worth what we are charged for them make more money than those that don't.

 

It takes a considerable amount of rationalizing to spend 1200 bucks on a toy.  So, Lionel has an uphill batter to begin with.  None of my friends would buy the engines I buy.  When Lionel delivered this Berk without the steam whistle feature as advertised, this product, for me, lost play and purchase value.  Therefore I will not spend my money on it.  It is as simple as that. 

I too was very disappointed. The EM-1 & 4-12-2 were only $50 more retail & engine is much bigger & they both had the whistle steam effect. This engine probably should be been priced at $1099 for what we are getting. I thinking about calling my dealer & see if I can return since product isn't as advertised. Lionel should have told dealers immediately about this feature not being on the final model to give customers a chance to cancel if they wished. Mine also had the inside of the drivers rusty. Has anyone else found this on theirs?

$1200?  That seems like a lot for one of these, smoke or no smoke.  I got one of the early K-Line Lima Locomotive Works models, and can tell you it is smaller than just about anything else around here.  I 2- railed it and moved the motor to the firebox.  I then stitched the belly.  When I put it next to a Lobaugh Berk, I decided it was undersize.  It seems to check with drawings from the railway Cyclopediae.  I still regard it as too small. I am going to dump it some day.

 

For those lusting for the Lima version, the tender and trailing truck were incorrect on the earlier model.  I would have guessed that such glaring inaccuracies would be more important than a whistle. I would have guessed wrong.

This issue is old, so are the arguments. So let's see a raise of hands. Who. of those who are unhappy with their purchase, will be referring this matter to their State's Attorney General? Contract law? False advertising? After all this is an election year ...this is when things of this nature get taken care of.

quote:

In this day and age the guy who lost his job,foreclosed on his home, and struggles to feed his kids would love to trade that situation for a missing smoke unit on an expensive toy train.

 

Sorry, but that guy isn't likely to be purchasing toy trains. If he is, he has a lot bigger problems.
When folks slow down on defending their favorite toy train company, maybe that company will start respecting their customers, and strive to keep their word.

I agree this thread has gotten a bit ridiculous.  My take is that, given the economy and world situation, there are a lot of angry people out there who often find it difficult to see any specific thing to be angry at, so when they see what is, frankly, a minor unfairness like a missing smoke unit, they blow off a bit of steam (wow- I just realized I made a great pun without intending to!).   I figure let them - no harm done.

 

As I said earlier, I'm a bit irked with Lionel but have decided to keep my Berk when it comes in next week.  Its a good model, and I don't actually run any smoke at all, or use the whistle, that often.

>>>I purchased one of these and as I stated earlier I like it in spite of the lack of a $30 smoke unit. While this loco is not as large as some it is still in the range of other Lionel locos I own that were well over $1000 and whistle steam had not even been invented yet.Its  smaller than Lionels own berkshire but has signifigantly more detail.K line had the best prices ever...... and how much did "rock bottom" priceing contribute to their demise?<<<

 

 

 

Well David you finally got it right....WOW! 

 

BUILDER equals Lionel

 

Please tell me you don't equate Builder to Hobby Shop?

 

Please tell me you didn't stick it to your realestate agent for the Builders short falls?  

 

David1 I agree with you but aren't you mixing apples and oranges.  A Car dealer that doesn't order the car with the options you specifically order did not fulfill his contract with you.  In the O gauge train business the only options are Road Names and numbers.  If I provide you the product number you ordered I met my obligation.

If it is damaged, broken, rusty, then you and the hobby shop have recourse to resolve it. 

 

Hobbyshops do take items back all the time.  We also have to deal with the long delays in deliverys that have customers decide for various reasons not to take the pre-order.  To date, our customer bases has called and "ASKED" not just demanded.  In many cases saying if we can't refuse the shipment from the manufacturer or distributor they will take it anyway.  We do our best to help our customers.  Luckily for us they respect us too. 

 

The Manufacturer is the responsible party here, and that is where this issue should be taken.  A few years ago didn't one replace shells that were not the right color? Probably cost them some money, but it was an option, and maybe they had leverage on the Chinese factory, who knows.

 

Clearly, they can't re-engineer the engine, but maybe if the cry is loud enough  directly to them, the can rebate a value, or opt to take it back.  Certainly this one has the potential for greater monetary loss for the company.    G