It looks like the new Berkshires have arrived. I just got an email from Ro. So I may have a Lima Berk to run tomorrow.
Doug
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I received one as well. Ordered the B&A. I have both that K-Line offered and they are a huge bang for the buck and are great runners.This is my first Legacy engine and I'm anxious to see how it stacks up performance wise. The K-Lines were high on detail. The only knock I have is the coal load. Hopefully for the price Lionel has raised the bar on that end as well.
Who will be first with photos on your layout??????
Hi Doug good luck, and I'm with Sam who will be the first to show photo's
and a video.
I have always wanted the Lima Demonstrator Berk. I grew up about 30 miles from Lima OH. I tried to find the K-line version and was not successful. I hope that I'm not unhappy.
Doug
Looking forward to pictures and video.
Count me as not happy. NO WHISTLE STEAM SMOKE EFFECT!! NOT AS ADVERTISED
Doug
Count me as not happy. NO WHISTLE STEAM SMOKE EFFECT!! NOT AS ADVERTISED
Doug
Yeah - its the second feature listed in the catalog, isn't it. I pick up mine this weekend.
Count me as not happy. NO WHISTLE STEAM SMOKE EFFECT!! NOT AS ADVERTISED
Doug
Yeah - its the second feature listed in the catalog, isn't it. I pick up mine this weekend.
Strangely, although 'Whistle steam' is mentioned in the catalogue, it is not among the features listed if you look up the locomotives with the product search. I guess that this is one of those cases where the 'Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design and availability.' disclaimer on the inside front cover applies. Not that that helps to avoid disappointment in any way.
Count me as not happy. NO WHISTLE STEAM SMOKE EFFECT!! NOT AS ADVERTISED
Doug
Yeah - its the second feature listed in the catalog, isn't it. I pick up mine this weekend.
Strangely, although 'Whistle steam' is mentioned in the catalogue, it is not among the features listed if you look up the locomotives with the product search. I guess that this is one of those cases where the 'Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design and availability.' disclaimer on the inside front cover applies. Not that that helps to avoid disappointment in any way.
Nicole,
It was still listed about 1/2 hour ago on the Lionel product listing web page. It was just removed, i'm sure due to my phone call with them.
I'm as big of Lionel fan as there is, but i believe those that purchased these engines should be refunded some money. The Mikado's listed for $900 w/o whistle steam.
Doug
Yes I know that the PM Berks were about the same, but the price is basically the same as the Mallets w/whistle steam and the berks were advertised as such. The Pacifics are $1,100 with whistle steam. Yes it has builder plates.
I like the looks of the engine and it sounds great. I'm just really bummed about the whistle steam.
Doug
Lionel has made such mistakes before, but they usually make up for it in some way. I remember when they came out with the Girls set remake they left out the Pull-More motor as was advertised. The unit came with a DC motor and that upset alot of people. Lionel sent us all a special box car to make up for the disappointment.
I bet if you all keep up some polite pressure they may be coaxed to do something similar for you.
In any case, I hope your new engines are great runners and you have many happy years playing with them.
Would love to see a video!
Or at least a photo or three before the clock strikes TWELVE!
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Beautiful photo Don!
How's the new layout coming? Careful not to get hurt surfing out there, especially 'at your age'...
I would go to Lionels facebook page and post something about this. they will give some kind of an answer, might take awhile.
That is indeed disappointing. The whistle steam effect is a lot fun! I had planned to purchase the ATSF Berk.....but I may pass now.
I am curious as to why the feature was not included as originally advertised in the catalog. In the past, when such omissions/errors have occurred did Lionel offer an explanation? Shouldn't the lack of this feature push the price point down? Although I should know better than to think that, as I have learned you can not translate features into the Lionel pricing structure.
Also, wouldn't Lionel have done the R & D and built a mock-up prior to publishing the feature in the catalog? I have the CC2 and it has to have a shorter boiler than the Berk, so I would imagine the second smoke generator would have fit (of course I say that having never seen the interior of a K-Line Berk shell).
These are just the ramblings of a disappointed potential Berk customer.
I am curious as to why the feature was not included as originally advertised in the catalog.
It may have been as simple as lack of proof-reading of the catalog (someone may have been cut-and-pasting features and did one too many), or there was a screw-up at the factory (easy to lose stuff in translation when different languages are involved). In any case, someone dropped the ball here, but Lionel should be given time to respond to this issue before they are crucified for it.
Andy
When I worked in broadcast TV we checked and double checked all graphics from the supers, names and titles to credits. Everything. Two sets of eyes the first and second run through. Then another set of eyes as a third check. I can't believe it was a proof-reading mistake. My guess would be it was planned to have a second smoke unit from the start. It wouldn't fit and no one thought to change the copy. Don
Sam, no surfing for me but we did just buy a two person ocean kayak. Yes, I am working on the layout. I'm so glad I bought three K-line Berkshires at discount prices when I could. I noticed the E-bay price is back up to the original price.
I wonder if the Lionel smoke unit will fit in them. Don
The Lionel catalog carries a disclaimer indicating that all descriptions are subject to change. I imagine that all the big companies have the same statement.
Whistle steam is a feature I would NOT do without. If future locos did not have it, I would pass.
Scrappy
The Lionel catalog carries a disclaimer indicating that all descriptions are subject to change. I imagine that all the big companies have the same statement.
That statement provides corporations a WIDE latitude of "wiggle room"... but fortunately, most companies stick pretty close to what's been advertised to avoid too much in the way of customer backlash.
In this case, who knows what actually happened. I mean... really... the catalog clearly hypes "whistle steam" as a new feature on this locomotive -- even calling attention to it. So for the feature not to be there is a MAJOR blunder. And given the price-point we're talking about here... unless the locomotive is otherwise nothing short of STUNNING in terms of detail level, performance or having an addition feature that wasn't advertised, then I suspect we'll see this locomotive hitting "blowout special sales" in a few months -- if, of course, consumers vote with their wallets. If, on the other hand, consumers accept it for what it is, then Lionel will likely just let things run their course. The dealers, as usual, are caught in the middle on stuff like this.
I'd have no problem whatsoever passing on a pre-ordered product at this price-point, if it was not delivered as advertised.
David
Whistle steam is a feature I would NOT do without. If future locos did not have it, I would pass.
Scrappy
I certainly agree. That was also a big factor in my decision to buy. Whistle steam & Cruise are the two best features to be added to the hobby. (since tmcc)
I guess I will have to stop pre-ordering.
Doug
I'll post some pics in a bit.
Doug
Whistle steam is a feature I would NOT do without. If future locos did not have it, I would pass.
Scrappy
All I ask of a model locomotive I would want to buy is it that it looks good and runs well. Features, or lack thereof do not affect my buying decision.
Rusty
I'd have no problem whatsoever passing on a pre-ordered product at this price-point, if it was not delivered as advertised.
David
David, I sure hope you buy directly from Lionel and not LHS. You ordered it from the store and they supplied it. They didn't make it or misrepresent it, that would be the manufacturer. How many $1000 engines do you think a small business can eat? I think it would be more appropriate to take it, then contact Lionel and send it back to them for a refund. G
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Revised Video
Doug
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I am particularly interested in this thread, because I pre-ordered a Berk through my LHS an anticipated a call this afternoon telling me I can pick it up.
I don't know what I am going to do, stand on principle and refuse it or go ahead and take a loco I really want (I do not have even one scale Berk). I am paying full list at my LHS, and it was advertised with whistle steam effect - and yes, its not a critical feature, but Lionel set the bar of expectations at the $1,100 price point with its previous locos so I really expect them to adhere to their promise, and frankly this will probably stand out as partially obsolete since its likely to become a fairly standard feature in the future.
>>> I sure hope you buy directly from Lionel and not LHS. You ordered it from the store and they supplied it. They didn't make it or misrepresent it, that would be the manufacturer. How many $1000 engines do you think a small business can eat? I think it would be more appropriate to take it, then contact Lionel and send it back to them for a refund. <<
What makes the LHS any different then the guy who ordered it? Seems to me Lionel misrepresented the piece to them as well..
Joe
GGG made a good point. It is tricky business. The consumer, the dealer and the manufacturer all act on good faith based on the information available when a product is pre-ordered. I expect the engine to have the features advertised, the dealer expects me to make the purchase, and the manufacturer expects to ship x units to the dealer. When one of the parties does not live up to their end of the bargain someone will inevitably get burned. I do not know how the arrangement between Lionel and the dealer is structured, but it seems the dealer has the greatest potential for getting burned.
I agreed to purchase the product advertised in the catalog at the price set by the dealer. The product Lionel delivered to the dealer is simply not that product. As a consumer, I feel I have the right to refuse to purchase the engine.
I purchased the 4-12-2 a few months ago. The manual features pre-production photographs of the engine and tender illustrating the upgrades from the older TMCC version (volume knob, whistle smoke fluid port, etc). I would imagine (hope) Lionel took those photos before they advertised the engine in the catalog. I am curious how the R & D/product development folks communicate with the marketing department. At what point in the development of this Berkshire engine was the whistle steam feature removed?
Why couldn't the decision to remove the whistle steam feature have been communicated to dealers and consumers before the consumer brings home their new toy only to find it does not have the whistle steam feature? Lionel is trying to use the tools of our information age (facebook, blog, Mike's videos on you tube), and for the most part they are doing a very good job of reaching out to us. It is just unfortunate that this one slipped through the crack. Unless Lionel reduces the MSRP, I will let this engine slip by too.
I'd have no problem whatsoever passing on a pre-ordered product at this price-point, if it was not delivered as advertised.
David
David, I sure hope you buy directly from Lionel and not LHS. You ordered it from the store and they supplied it. They didn't make it or misrepresent it, that would be the manufacturer. How many $1000 engines do you think a small business can eat? I think it would be more appropriate to take it, then contact Lionel and send it back to them for a refund. G
Well... more accurately... "I ordered IT from the store and they supplied THAT -- not IT".
As a small business owner myself, I would never expect my clients to take something that was not made to spec. End of discussion. How is that any different when I'm the consumer? Why should I have to buy something that wasn't made as advertised? Then take on the burden of dealing with THEIR supplier for a refund. WTF???
The LHS should be the entity returning the product -- or better yet, never even accept delivery of the product if it was THAT major of an issue.
I made this point on another thread just last week or so, when someone had inquired about Lionel's Backshop many years ago. There were issues with it, and the dealer I ordered it from refused delivery of the product by Lionel until they got it right. And THAT's what should have happened in that case.
Gee, if what you're suggesting is the appropriate strategy, then why the heck should I even need to place the order through the dealer in the first place??? What value is the dealer even bringing to the table at that point? Sorry, I just don't get it.
David
P.S. For the record, this is not an item I pre-ordered. And it's strictly a personal decision as to what tips the scale as a MAJOR deviation when what's delivered is not quite what's described in a catalog. Probably the most appropriate route is for Lionel to decrease the product cost to the dealer, thereby opening the door for the dealer to offer a lower price to the consumer. If the dealer can't move the product as delivered, then it goes back to Lionel with no penalty to the dealer. (But in reality, I suspect at the appropriate price-point, folks out there will buy these units if they're otherwise great locomotives.)
I am a strong Lionel supporter and consumer. However its time to improve our confidence in their products
I'm going to go by my LHS today and talk with them about this very topic: can they return the loco to Lionel or do they eat it if I refuse. I ordered through my LHS, even though I knew I could both buy cheaper and have it quicker (I'd already have it it I bought from Klein) because I want to support them. I would think they could return defective products and in some sense this is. I like the loco otherwise however. Still don't know what I am going to do.
In addition, I can't imagine Lionel is not going to respond to its customer base over this. Seems incredibly stupid for them not to do some some of mea culpa and adjustment/credit for customers who keep the locos . . .
Doug N posted some pretty good photos above, and I now realize the model is Lionel's "reproduction" of the former K-Line Lima Berk. I also have one of the K-Line B&A Berks, and it certainly is a VERY well detailed scale model. However, unless Lionel completely redesigned the internal motor/drive system, don't plan on pulling very big trains with this model.
For some odd reason, the K-Line design folks (Bob Gruba?), came up with the design of installing the motor in the boiler backwards, instead of in the firebox, which is the widest part of the locomotive. Thus, the motors are smaller in diameter. My model barely handles 15 cars, on flat track!
Sure is a good looking model though. Plus, I agree with Rusty; I could care less about "smoke out of the whistle", or ANY smoke for that matter.
I only hope that someday I can have enough spare change to pay my monthly bills, pay off my credit cards, mortgage, student loans, wife's student loans, send my daughter to college in 18 years, purchase a vehicle that was not a year old when I bought it, put food on the table, and pay $1100 for a toy!
Someday, maybe when I get older...
Whistle steam or not, all I can do is dream...