NEW Lionel BRASS Challenger WON'T RUN (out of the Box)!

When I powered up my Challenger for the first time, it had a short and would not run at all.  No sound, smoke, lights, nothing.  It would just trip the breaker on my transformer.   I narrowed down the short to the locomotive and opened it up.  A screw had come loose from the motor mount and ended up being one of the three screws I found floating around in the box when I unboxed the engine.  As for the motor, it was loose and would not sit at the correct angle.  I screwed down the motor mount using one of the three screws and the engine fired up with lights, smoke, and sound.   It has been running fine now for the past few days. My guess is the loose motor was touching something that was causing the short.  Hope that helps.

Yup I had a motor mount screw loose and some pinched wires

check out my original thread

Lionel CSA-2 Challenger

When you open up or take apart the ENGINE , I'm afraid of the WARRANTY being "VOIDED" by Lionel.

FREDSTRAINS

I’ve nosed around more than once before sending something in for warranty with no problems. Now that doesn’t mean you should that’s up to you, either open it up or call Lionel for a RA number and have them Handle their own screw ups.

that being said there’s no excuse for a pinched wire but that can happen these are assembled by humans. The loose screw I’d be willing to be if that is an issue here, due to shipping and the reason that shows up on shipping is probably due to the lack of correct torque used during assembly

Either contact the retailer or Lionel.  That should always be the first line of business especially if you are worried about the warranty.  There are folks here that can jump in and find the issue but if you feel you're not one of them just let the warranty process play out.  If your retailer is good and has excess stock they'll most likely deal with it.

@Fredstrains posted:

Any ideas?   Should he return it to Mail Order Train Store or Lionel?

This is a no-brainer, return it!

He is going to contact “MAIL ORDER RETAILER” this AM !   Will post results !

FREDSTRAINS

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

This is a no-brainer, return it!

**m right for the price it goes back.

I’m not in this dog fight, but I have two friends with one of these beauties, one a broken traction tire, hopefully that’s easily fixed, and an other friend that has one working fine. Good luck on getting these beautiful locomotives fixed by Lionel. Quality Control needs to be a top priority. Happy Railroading Everyone

@leapinlarry--That reminds me of the story the late, great late night TV host/toy train operator Tom Snyder used to tell about his Lionel scale (701) switch engine...that his father bought:

"It's been bad for me from day one, because he bought two... one for my cousin (and) one for me. My cousin's ran like a jeweled watch: mine didn't work from day one and it's been downhill ever since."

Tomorrow, with Tom Snyder

Tom

It's probably a pinched wire. If you or your friend don't feel comfortable checking the locomotive yourself, send it back to the retailer or to Lionel for repair.

I'm sorry, but I read this topic, tried to stay out of it, but came to a very different place on the conclusion.

So your friend buys this new loco out of the box and it pops the breaker instantly. You come over, trying to "help" your friend, so what do you do? You power the loco with the lowest amount of throttle on the transformer, so the massive amount of amperage you know it's drawing in this state doesn't pop the breaker, and just sit there and continue to try program it. And then further- keep on trying to run it.

This is NOT how you troubleshoot expensive trains, and not how you "help" your friends and their expensive trains.

Again, as a lesson to learn here, this has to be the worst thing I think a person could do- sit there and cook the ever living snot out of a train you already know is drawing excessive amperage- just below the threshold of the safety systems trying to protect you from just such ignorance.

Edit- This is a huge reason to have meters on your layout or transformer and some idea of how much current and voltage you are seeing on a given train during proper troubleshooting.  Also, having a baseline of knowing that a modern train sitting there not even yet running, probably should not be peaking the ammeter. Especially on a train you know there is some form of a major issue-  let's just keep trying to power it over and over.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

This is a no-brainer, return it!

I'm aging myself here, but "When EF Hutton talks, people listen".

@Mallard4468 posted:

I'm aging myself here, but "When EF Hutton talks, people listen".

I remember that from when I was a youngster... maybe not that young...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

This is a no-brainer, return it!

Amen to that.

These trains are not cheap.

While the BTO model may make getting a replacement a bit dicey the longer you wait,  an out of the box material defect would be a return/replacement or refund for me.

IMO sending brand new products with material defects back to any manufacturer for repair is just putting a band aid on the fundamental problem of QC.  Money talks and sooner or later someone in corporate will notice when the amount of returns affects the bottom line and causes dealer exasperation.

Occasionally in other threads I have read to the effect that someone from Lionel periodically comes on the site and reads posts, maybe he will jump in and comment.  That someone is typically Dave and indeed he occasionally replies.

Is it naive to ask that since this Forum has a lot of real train enthusiats both collectors, operators and hands on diagnostic/repair folks that Lionel designate a liaison with this Forum who would be copied on/monitor posts such as this to direct Lionel support staff to contact the owner directly and try to do an infield triage to fast track these issues?

It is great that the community supports issues such as this with suggestions and comments, but IMO it would be preferable to have the manufacturer get some skin on the game especially if some of the infield diagnostics/fixes as has been suggested here and elsewhere may void the warranty of a new engine.

In my ignorance I am just asking if this is feasible.  

Some ask why, I ask why not?

@Former Member posted:

Is it naive to ask that since this Forum has a lot of real train enthusiats both collectors, operators and hands on diagnostic/repair folks that Lionel designate a liaison with this Forum who would be copied on/monitor posts such as this to direct Lionel support staff to contact the owner directly and try to do an infield triage to fast track these issues?

Chuck,

Yes, it is.

Because it's brand-new stuff forumites directly involved should get paid for their time assisting with the diagnosis.  It's a warranty-related cost.  However, because there's probably no budget for this effort, what you suggest isn't happening and isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

M.H.M.

I just read an e-mail from Charles Ro on "new arrivals" and the hybrid brass challenger was among the items advertised. I was flabbergasted on the street price of these things. Loose/missing motor mount screws and pinched wires...I can only imagine factory workers working long 12 hour?, maybe more, shifts...these things are bound to happen. Yet for $2,000+ models there's gotta be a breakpoint. Something is askew at some point in the line; I can only suggest that Lionel in USA take each one of the engines that come from overseas apart and ensure everything is done correctly, at least for the Legacy items...which command a higher price.

@Paul Kallus posted:

I just read an e-mail from Charles Ro on "new arrivals" and the hybrid brass challenger was among the items advertised. I was flabbergasted on the street price of these things. Loose/missing motor mount screws and pinched wires...I can only imagine factory workers working long 12 hour?, maybe more, shifts...these things are bound to happen. Yet for $2,000+ models there's gotta be a breakpoint. Something is askew at some point in the line; I can only suggest that Lionel in USA take each one of the engines that come from overseas apart and ensure everything is done correctly, at least for the Legacy items...which command a higher price.

You think Lionel has the manpower to do this with all of it's Legacy engines?  If there is a problem it needs to be addressed at the factory.

GOOD NEWS,

My "Freind" called the "Mail Order Shop" & they are going to send him a replacement.  They also are going to E Mail him a Pre Paid FedX Label to send the one back that has the problem!!!

KUDOS to Charles RO !!!

FREDSTRAINS

@Paul Kallus posted:

... there's gotta be a breakpoint. Something is askew at some point in the line;

Paul,

If you can't tolerate this situation there's a simple answer:  Quit complaining about the obvious and do something productive.

Improved Quality control only makes sense when a manufacturer believes that it's important to the consumer.  This has nothing to do with how much money you paid for the piece.

Since they're apparently not listening to your words, and the words of at least several others who agree with you:

      Stop buying from them.

Just be aware that many of us, particularly ardent tinkerers, won't be joining you.  Odd as it may seem we don't have that big of a problem with it.  We just shrug our shoulders, dive in, and fix it ourselves.

In the greater world it's just as odd that Tesla builds expensive state-of-the-art automobiles of extreme poor quality, when compared to the standard brands, and yet they're selling every one they make, as fast as they can make them.

Good Quality control is quickly becoming history.

Mike

@zhubl posted:

I’ve nosed around more than once before sending something in for warranty with no problems. Now that doesn’t mean you should that’s up to you, either open it up or call Lionel for a RA number and have them Handle their own screw ups.

that being said there’s no excuse for a pinched wire but that can happen these are assembled by humans. The loose screw I’d be willing to be if that is an issue here, due to shipping and the reason that shows up on shipping is probably due to the lack of correct torque used during assembly

You know U might have the answer to all these “screw loose problems “!  Maybe they should be “TORQUED” !!!  We did find a screw in the Bottom of the Styrofoam Box in his unit as well !!!’

@Paul Kallus posted:

I just read an e-mail from Charles Ro on "new arrivals" and the hybrid brass challenger was among the items advertised. I was flabbergasted on the street price of these things. Loose/missing motor mount screws and pinched wires...I can only imagine factory workers working long 12 hour?, maybe more, shifts...these things are bound to happen. Yet for $2,000+ models there's gotta be a breakpoint. Something is askew at some point in the line; I can only suggest that Lionel in USA take each one of the engines that come from overseas apart and ensure everything is done correctly, at least for the Legacy items...which command a higher price.

Yeah, it seems odd that the factories used to produce not only better quality products, but also ones with fewer defects. What changed?

@rplst8 posted:

Yeah, it seems odd that the factories used to produce not only better quality products, but also ones with fewer defects. What changed?

The factory.

@Fredstrains posted:

GOOD NEWS,

My "Freind" called the "Mail Order Shop" & they are going to send him a replacement.  They also are going to E Mail him a Pre Paid FedX Label to send the one back that has the problem!!!

KUDOS to Charles RO !!!

FREDSTRAINS

Glad to hear that there will be a positive resolution.

This situation illustrates a couple of important points - open and test new items as soon as possible after they arrive, and act quickly if there's a problem.  I'm assuming that even a large dealer only ordered a few extras, so getting a BTO item replaced is an option for a very limited number of people.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Paul,

If you can't tolerate this situation there's a simple answer:  Quit complaining about the obvious and do something productive.

Improved Quality control only makes sense when a manufacturer believes that it's important to the consumer.  This has nothing to do with how much money you paid for the piece.

Since they're apparently not listening to your words, and the words of at least several others who agree with you:

      Stop buying from them.

Just be aware that many of us, particularly ardent tinkerers, won't be joining you.  Odd as it may seem we don't have that big of a problem with it.  We just shrug our shoulders, dive in, and fix it ourselves.

In the greater world it's just as odd that Tesla builds expensive state-of-the-art automobiles of extreme poor quality, when compared to the standard brands, and yet they're selling every one they make, as fast as they can make them.

Good Quality control is quickly becoming history.

Mike

Interesting post.  I too share an interest in quality control.  Probably the tinkerer in me as well.  However not all quality control is lost.  I have a Toyota SUV manufactured at one of Toyota’s Japan-based plants (Tahara).  I have had it for 7 years, bought it new.  Flawless build quality and no issues at all during that time.  Panel gaps, paint finish, all perfect and better than any other car I have owned (including some high end German iron).  So quality control does exist, and it doesn’t have to exist only on a premium product because my truck certainly isn’t premium.  Not sure if it could be translated to toy train manufacture, but I certainly agree with you that if people are bothered by it, they should stop buying the product, or when it happens put the problem and the cost back on the manufacturer.

Happy to hear in any event that the poster got a new locomotive.  Here is hoping that one is good to go.  Have a good day.

@Fredstrains posted:

You know U might have the answer to all these “screw loose problems “!  Maybe they should be “TORQUED” !!!  We did find a screw in the Bottom of the Styrofoam Box in his unit as well !!!’

When your friend gets his new one, no harm to tighten the motor mount screws. They can be accessed without taking the locomotive apart. I’ve been hearing about this common complaint on this model not only on here, but off line too,…..

Pat

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Paul,

If you can't tolerate this situation there's a simple answer:  Quit complaining about the obvious and do something productive.

Improved Quality control only makes sense when a manufacturer believes that it's important to the consumer.  This has nothing to do with how much money you paid for the piece.

Since they're apparently not listening to your words, and the words of at least several others who agree with you:

      Stop buying from them.

Just be aware that many of us, particularly ardent tinkerers, won't be joining you.  Odd as it may seem we don't have that big of a problem with it.  We just shrug our shoulders, dive in, and fix it ourselves.

In the greater world it's just as odd that Tesla builds expensive state-of-the-art automobiles of extreme poor quality, when compared to the standard brands, and yet they're selling every one they make, as fast as they can make them.

Good Quality control is quickly becoming history.

Mike

Lionel must love you guys. You've essentially said you and many others will buy their stuff no matter what needs to be fixed. But this is obvious, and many of us are in that same boat.

I wasn't complaining. If you read my reply, the point I made was a suggestion. You and others shot it down.

There is precedent for my idea. When MTH switched factories, they instituted QC at their USA facility; Lionel should consider improved QC measures, whatever they deem necessary, be it overseas or domestically.

If you're fine with purchasing multi-thousand-dollar models that need "tinkering" out of the box, more power to you. Have you ever tried to take the boiler shell off some of these models...the S3 or H10 for example? Screws that aren't torqued enough? How about screws that are over-torqued?

I've never spent the kind of prices on a single engine this thread is referencing. Nevertheless, I'll continue to buy Lionel stuff, including mid-range Legacy items, and I stand by my right to offer suggestions and request for help when I need it.

I see no problem that if you're comfortable "tinkering" to get a defective engine to work to do so as long as you assume the risks of further damage and warranty problems BUT "tinkering" should never be a requirement to get a defective product to work or to be in this hobby.  There should be an expectation that it should work.  Period.

The only solution for those not wanting to open a defective product is to return it for replacement or refund (if another isn't available).  Personally I would never suggest to anyone that they are the problem for not wanting to be the repair guy. Each must decide on their own what they are willing to tolerate.  For the most part I've been lucky and had very few issues with new product, most I could easily solve and some were returned and repaired by the manufacturer after I contacted them first.

Paul definitely has a point.  The manufacturers have to be better at QC.  No one is perfect but there are things and processes that can be put in place to help curtail issues such as loose screws.

Bottom line is really fairly simple.  State laws mandate that retailers accept returns for exchange, repair or refund of recently purchased items that are defective.  If you have a defective product, it's disappointing, but exchange or get refund.  If that fails, make sure you use a credit card and dispute the charge with your bank.  That's rarely necessary.

That said, I've been buying lots of toy trains and some scale models in G gauge, N and Z for close to 40 years and have had a <1% problem rate on testing.  It's sensible not to extrapolate from the occasional lemon or unexpected failure to all products from any vendor or the hobby as a whole.

@Paul Kallus posted:

Have you ever tried to take the boiler shell off some of these models...the S3 or H10 for example? Screws that aren't torqued enough? How about screws that are over-torqued?

To remove the shell for the Milwaukee Road S3 you have to remove the fireman, doesn't everyone know that?

As for overtorqued screws, does this one count on my PRR H10?

@harmonyards posted:

When your friend gets his new one, no harm to tighten the motor mount screws. They can be accessed without taking the locomotive apart. I’ve been hearing about this common complaint on this model not only on here, but off line too,…..

Pat

Pat,

Very good advice, THANK YOU!

PS  And all the rest of the FORUM Members who replied,

FREDSTRAINS

Not a direct comparison as many Hi Fi audio electronics are manufactured by companies headquartered in other countries however many USA importers/distributors appointed by the manufacturer of High End audio gear routinely open up all sorts of electronics (as opposed to speakers) to verify condition from shipping and manufacturing outcomes.  

The inspection may be solely visual, but also testing especially for expensive amplifiers, preamplifiers, etc.

The factory cartons are then resealed with the distributors tape to verify the stateside QC has been performed.

Is this system practical for Lionel, or MTH?  Probably not except for the most expensive Legacy/Hybrid bras/Vision Line engines.  

The point is that if there is a will there is a way to improve QC.  If the manufacturers do not have the will to do it on their own, the customer may have to find the way to insist upon it.

Calling Lionel or your Dealer works much quicker than posting here, waiting for the replies, then calling Lionel or your Dealer.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ionel-repair-support

My $.02 may not be welcome here but it is a public forum. When I buy something new from a manufacturer or dealer I expect it to work and perform as advertised. If it doesn’t they get a call or email right away.

That being said, I do tend to buy almost everything I buy in model trains used, and  if something shows up with a defect or mechanical/electronic issue I deal with it on a case-by-case basis. Most things I buy I can fix, but there is almost always somebody out there who can fix a model train if I for some reason can’t do it myself.

All of my recent O scale purchases have been used equipment, and everything I’ve bought will end up being modified in some fashion—in most cases either repowered, or upgraded electronically to battery control, or both. Generally when I buy something in O scale I’ve mentally added a certain amount of $$$ to the anticipated cost to cover the mods or repairs.

In this hobby there are times that, if you don’t preorder or buy right away, you miss out on a model. It happens. Which is why I’m still looking for a pair of Atlas Manufacturer’s Rwy MP15dc engines after all this time. But most of the time if I decide I want something it’s out there—maybe at a price that makes my teeth rattle, but it’s out there…

Oddly enough, the only time I’ve ever had to completely give up and write off a model as unfixable is when I traded for a locomotive with a member of this forum. He got a nice model, and I got a piece of junk that was beyond repair. I wrote it off to experience and moved on.

Jeff C

@Fredstrains posted:

GOOD NEWS,

My "Freind" called the "Mail Order Shop" & they are going to send him a replacement.  They also are going to E Mail him a Pre Paid FedX Label to send the one back that has the problem!!!

KUDOS to Charles RO !!!

FREDSTRAINS

Did the replacement come in yet? If so how is it.

The NEW Engine should be here next week !!!  Will keep everyone “Posted”!!!

@Fredstrains posted:

The NEW Engine should be here next week !!!  Will keep everyone “Posted”!!!

“RUNS OUT OF THE BOX”!!!!

As promised:  My friend received his replacement Challenger from Charles RO yesterday!  NO PROBLEMS, out of the box ! Everything worked flawlessly  !!  THANK YOU, CHARLES RO !!!

I've mentioned before that I am currently 0-for-2 with brand new Legacy steam.  Both had the Single Blink Of Death right out of the box.  I immediately sent both to Lionel and after one month for one and almost three for the other I received back a working unit. 

I am rolling the dice again and have a Vision Line Big Boy on order from a reputable, high volume seller.  If it arrives DOA, I'm sending it back to the retailer for an immediate exchange.  I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would not immediately return or RMA a brand new, in warranty DOA item (model train or otherwise).