Does the Lionel #8754 represent a loco the New Haven actually had? I have been searching various NH related sites, but have yet to find this particular loco. Any help or links would be appreciated.
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@CALNNC posted:Does the Lionel #8754 represent a loco the New Haven actually had? I have been searching various NH related sites, but have yet to find this particular loco. Any help or links would be appreciated.
That electric locomotive was designated as an EF-4 (electric freight) on the New Haven Railroad. Twelve of them were obtained in 1963 from the Norfolk & Western Railroad after electric operations ended on the Virginian Railway. They were successful on the New Haven Railroad. Your attached picture looks correct.
Here are some pictures of my MTH Premier New Haven EF-4 #303.
MELGAR
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I believe that is a Lionel MPC number......the page below shows the numbers for the Virginian, the N&W, the New Haven and the subsequent PennCentral.
Peter
@CALNNC posted:Does the Lionel #8754 represent a loco the New Haven actually had? I have been searching various NH related sites, but have yet to find this particular loco. Any help or links would be appreciated.
Yes, it is a selectively compressed representation of locomotives bought from the Virginian.
Search for New Haven GE EF-4.
Rusty
@Putnam Division posted:I believe that is a Lionel MPC number......the page below shows the numbers for the Virginian, the N&W, the New Haven and the subsequent PennCentral.
Peter
Thank you, Peter, I appreciate seeing the referenced information as well. Paul.
I grew up on the NC Branch line, in between the Glenbrook and Springdale stations.
YWhen the New Haven was strapped for cash in the 60s....these engines were a great deal and helped with the New Haven's freight service well into the PennCentral era.......I believe the Virginia originally paid something like $250K for each and the New Haven bought all 12, including spare parts for around $300K........sorry, that I can't be more precise......I'm away from my reference books at the moment.....
Peter
Thanks for all the info and the great pictures. That answered the question 100%.
@CALNNC posted:Does the Lionel #8754 represent a loco the New Haven actually had? I have been searching various NH related sites, but have yet to find this particular loco. Any help or links would be appreciated.
While this engine is PennCentral black the motors came from the New Haven
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@ThatGuy posted:While this engine is PennCentral black the motors came from the New Haven
the motor in question looks like an E-44 which was Pennsylvania RR only,the E-33 was New Haven...both look alike the E-33 was little less angular...
@joe krasko posted:the motor in question looks like an E-44 which was Pennsylvania RR only,the E-33 was New Haven...both look alike the E-33 was little less angular...
Hate to disagree with you but the Haven had both, the transfers took place late in the game. I know this because the photo is of my motor overtaking the passenger train. Towards the end and before the marriage motors shifted all over, it was one h*ll of a time.
@ThatGuy posted:Hate to disagree with you but the Haven had both, the transfers took place late in the game. I know this because the photo is of my motor overtaking the passenger train. Towards the end and before the marriage motors shifted all over, it was one h*ll of a time.
Sorry, but the Pennsylvania was the only railroad to purchase E44's. 66 were built 1960-1963.
E44's may have started to show up on New Haven trackage under Penn Central ownership, but they were strictly originally Pennsy locomotives.
Rusty
@ThatGuy posted:Hate to disagree with you but the Haven had both, the transfers took place late in the game. I know this because the photo is of my motor overtaking the passenger train. Towards the end and before the marriage motors shifted all over, it was one h*ll of a time.
You may choose to disagree, but that is still an E-44 and the NH did not have any. The picture is under PRR catenary. This was taken after the PC merger so E-33’s (EF-4) and E-44’s may have run on either of the original road’s trackage.
@Danr posted:You may choose to disagree, but that is still an E-44 and the NH did not have any. The picture is under PRR catenary. This was taken after the PC merger so E-33’s (EF-4) and E-44’s may have run on either of the original road’s trackage.
To simply add to the consensus, the New Haven never owned E44 electrics. As others have stated, the EF-4s came to New Haven 3rd hand via the Norfolk & Western having started life as the EL-C on the Virginian starting in 1956. The Lionel electric is based on the Virginian prototype and they also offered the same locomotive in HO that was built on an Athearn GP9 chassis.
As to the photo in question, the location is specifically between Rahway and Newark, NJ based on the CNJ commuter train on the adjacent track being pulled by a GP40P. All Jersey Shore trains were routed onto the PC mainline after the Aldene plan of 1967 and CNJ trains terminated in Newark Penn Station.
E44s were only purchased by the PRR starting in 1960 to replace the P5s. When the New Haven was merged into PC, the EF-4s were renamed to E33s to fit in with PC nomenclature. A few asides:
- The New Haven EP-5s were called E40s on Penn Central
- GE produced two E50Cs in 1968 for the Muskingum Electric Railroad that were very similar to the E44.
At least one EL-C is preserved at the museum in Roanoke. I don't believe any additional ones were preserved.
I have a Williams version of the EF-4 that is very robust if not quite as detailed as the MTH version. I also have the Lionel MPC variation on this locomotive in Penn Central somewhere in my collection. It was an auction buy a number of years ago.
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@GG1 4877 posted:At least one EL-C is preserved at the museum in Roanoke. I don't believe any additional ones were preserved.
There is one other at the Illinois Railway Museum. It's unfortunately in pretty sad shape. It was going to be cosmetically restored as NH 301 by NS, but the arrangement fell through. As far as I know, it is IRM's intention is to eventually restore it as NH 301.
Rusty
@Danr posted:You may choose to disagree, but that is still an E-44 and the NH did not have any. The picture is under PRR catenary. This was taken after the PC merger so E-33’s (EF-4) and E-44’s may have run on either of the original road’s trackag
@Rusty Traque posted:There is one other at the Illinois Railway Museum. It's unfortunately in pretty sad shape. It was going to be cosmetically restored as NH 301 by NS, but the arrangement fell through. As far as I know, it is IRM's intention is to eventually restore it as NH 301.
Rusty
It’s time for a little history lesson. One the color of PennCentral engines is not black, the official color is Brunswick Green with black trucks. Two the New Haven had 4 E 44 sent to them from Pennsylvania RR they were painted black as all leased equipment and delivered to them. The engines remained out of service until the PennCentral came up with magic paint to hide the frame cracks. This I know as fact as I was one of the engineers that delivered the motors to the New Haven. The picture I sent was for a point of reference.
Well, the waters got muddied and I got derailed a bit. Is the EF-4 the 'class of loco' and the E-44 is a version, and the Milwaukee E-70 'Little Joe' that has its prototype pic labelled 'E-44 Class' another variation of the E-44? Perhaps the picture was labelled wrong? Did the NH actually have a version painted as the Lionel version shows or is it Lionel literary license?
@CALNNC posted:Well, the waters got muddied and I got derailed a bit. Did the NH actually have a version painted as the Lionel version shows or is it Lionel literary license?
Do an internet search for "Images for New Haven Railroad EF-4" and you should find color photographs that will answer your questions. The model in the photo you posted is not an accurate scale model. New Haven EF-4s had three-axle trucks - the model in your picture has two-axle trucks. Your picture does not show the entire model but its colors and paint scheme look correct for a New Haven EF-4. The MTH Premier model whose picture I posted is a scale-sized model that closely resembles a New Haven EF-4. The most significant deviations from scale are the movable O gauge pilots, wheels for three-rail operation, and width of the (vertical) stanchions supporting the handrails.
MELGAR
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@CALNNC posted:Well, the waters got muddied and I got derailed a bit. Is the EF-4 the 'class of loco' and the E-44 is a version, and the Milwaukee E-70 'Little Joe' that has its prototype pic labelled 'E-44 Class' another variation of the E-44? Perhaps the picture was labelled wrong? Did the NH actually have a version painted as the Lionel version shows or is it Lionel literary license?
CALNNC...the simple answer to your question is YES the paint job is prototypical....all the best ..joe
@MELGAR posted:Do an internet search for "Images for New Haven Railroad EF-4" and you should find color photographs that will answer your questions. The model in the photo you posted is not an accurate scale model. New Haven EF-4s had three-axle trucks - the model in your picture has two-axle trucks. Your picture does not show the entire model but its colors and paint scheme look correct for a New Haven EF-4. The MTH Premier model whose picture I posted is a scale-sized model that closely resembles a New Haven EF-4. The most significant deviations from scale are the movable O gauge pilots, wheels for three-rail operation, and width of the (vertical) stanchions supporting the handrails.
MELGAR
Melgar,
it looks like you a very nice layout. Could you share some more pictures of it.
Thank you,
Rob
@swrr posted:Melgar,
it looks like you a very nice layout. Could you share some more pictures of it. Thank you,
Rob
Rob,
The link below goes to a post in "Switcher Saturday 5-14-22" that has pictures and videos of my 10'-by-5' layout.
MELGAR
@CALNNC posted:Well, the waters got muddied and I got derailed a bit. Is the EF-4 the 'class of loco' and the E-44 is a version, and the Milwaukee E-70 'Little Joe' that has its prototype pic labelled 'E-44 Class' another variation of the E-44? Perhaps the picture was labelled wrong? Did the NH actually have a version painted as the Lionel version shows or is it Lionel literary license?
The E44 was a class and design of its own. The Wiki page mentions (and is also mentioned in Volkmer's 'Pennsy Electric Years', Shuman's 'Trackside Under Pennsy Wires', and I believe in the 'Conrail Under Pennsy Wires' books), the E44 was designed with the EL-C / E33 in mind, but not really modeled completely after it per se. Pennsy saw that the Virginian was pleased with the EL-C and asked GE for a similar design. The E44 was still in its own class, and the MERR's E50C was a more powerful variant of the E44, (see the photo comment here for info and citation). The photo in question above is from Elizabeth Station in NJ (I think, looks pretty close). I do not believe E44s ventured into New Haven territory; I seem to recall the electrical supply was incompatible with the E44's Ignitron rectifiers and later silicon diodes, (don't hold me to that; I didn't double-check).
The New Haven E33's were used most notably on the Bay Ridge branch of the Long Island Railroad It was New Haven connection to car floats in New York Harbor after going over the Heillgate bridge. The electrified service ended in 1967 The Bay ridge branch had a handful of customers through the Penn Central years The Car floats are still operational today by The NYNJ railroad with connections to the New York and Atlantic
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Brain freeze time, Rusty Traque did send me a link to a prototype picture of the E44's with NH logos with my first question, and it slipped my mind when I asked again about the NH and E44 even though I had downloaded the pic and saved it.
