New Lionel Pennsy Turbine

Harry Henning had one on order, and when they all came in the other day, they were all wet!  I think a majority of them didn't survive the trip across the pond.

 

Maybe those were in the containers that we had a video posted falling off the ship and floating away.

 

 

Has anyone got one that is ok?

The water damage was due to badly cured styrofoam, not external water seeping in. Lionel had pretty much told the dealers to ship them back. I am sure they will be looking for them at York to return to NC

Yes... There are good ones out there.  You just need to purchase from an authorized Lionel dealer.  DO NOT PURCHASE THIS LOCOMOTIVE FROM A NON-AUTHORIZED SOURCE, as you'll have no recourse with Lionel.

Most of the large dealers have checked their stock by now, and the bad ones have been (or will very soon be) returned to Lionel for scrap.  Some dealers who received some "dry" ones still have them for sale... And you may very well see a few at York.

If you buy one still sealed in the original shipping carton sight unseen and it turns out to be damp/wet/rusted, then you'll need to return it to Lionel for a refund.  That's why you should only buy from an authorized Lionel dealer.

This is one loco you want to purchase from a Lionel dealer you trust and who has already examined it -- and perhaps even given it a test run.

David

Look for the previous thread on this subject.  There was one dealer who had several locos that were dry. 

I've heard, take it as 2nd hand, that even though some appeared dry and undamaged on the outside, when they were opened the circuit boards were in the early stages of corrosion. 

 

I cancelled mine as I didn't want to take that chance. It was a hard decision as I really wanted this engine. 

MIne was completely undamaged and ran perfectly.  I never would have know there were even potential issues with damage or "wet" if I didn't read it here.  Pretty nice engine. There is that issue with the sheesy stamped metal coal load, but I posted a thread with pictures sometime around a week ago about my fixing that. 

My 1st one that I received from Charles Ro had rust damage and that I had to send it back to Lionel's Service Center. I'm still waiting for my refund. I did purchase a 2nd one from Nicholas Smith and that one was good. After talking to Smith they told me that they had also received bad ones and those were sent back. Apparently the one I received from Ro was not checked for damage before they sent them out. I understand that Ro has some good ones, why didn't I not receive a good one from them, who knows.

 

Ok, thanks for the information!  In terms of buying one at York, what should I look for to check for damage - external rust on the rollers? What else?

Please let me know,

Thanks!

Harold which version are you looking for?

 

Paul, Ro is as straight up as dealers come.  I think our locos were some of the first shipment that were likely shipped out to consumers within HOURS of Ro receiving them.  They had no reason to suspect anything until this issue became known VERY quickly.  By the time I called Ro's customer service, Lionel was already on board to issue refunds to consumers and have dealers ship the damaged locos back for scrap.  I got the impression that the Lionel refund may take 4-6 weeks or so.

 

David

Also are there not circuit boards in the boiler?

I have one left and it is clean inside and out.

 

Dave

 

I am glad some appear to be ok. Just hope someone who thinks they have an ok one doesn't freak out in a year or two when corrosion surfaces or they find out Lionel has zero repair parts because they destroyed all the ones they got for parts. 

 

Just wanted to say that I saw one of these on display at the Charles Ro booth at York, and it was surrounded by steamers with real coal loads in their tender... and oh what a difference!!!  Hopefully, Lionel won't take that short-cut again (i.e., the molded coal load in the tender of a scale locomotive).    It's definitely a deal-breaker for me, although I understand some folks have glued real coal on top of the molded coal pile with satisfactory results.

 

David

Will Lionel have to eat these locomotives?  Seems that they could be salvaged and resold by some enterprising 'overhauler' at a better price? (with Lionel's OK and an enhanced coal load)

 

On the other hand.. Down the road the dry ones will become 'rare'  due to very low survival/production!

 

Anyone know how they were damaged?  ( the container floating off is funny)

The foam was not cured before they were put in. The moisture from the foam did the damage. 

 

I suspect Lionel is making a claim which will most likely require them return or destroy them. I can't imagine they could make a claim and use the damaged engines Nor would I suspect they would want to use them anyways. 

Sam, it's my understanding that Lionel is insured for this type of catastrophe.  But in order for the insurance to pay out, the bad units from the production run must be destroyed.    How this may impact servicing and parts availability down the road is not clear.  I'm still waiting for my refund from the unit I returned to Ohio.

 

Although I don't recall Lionel ever making an official statement on the cause, some folks thought that uncured styrofoam could have been the culprit.  The shipping boxes were all dry to the best of my knowledge, yet the inner product cartons, instruction manual, as well as the product showed signs of dampness -- even rust in the more severe cases.

 

David

This isn't hard to understand. They simply chose not to change the existing tooling which had a molded coal load. If you don't see it advertised in the catalog as "new tooling" or "new separately applied coal load" then you can expect to get the same thing. The tooling for the S2 dates back to the 90's. I'm not aware of any changes other than electronics and smoke lifters. I realize it is confusing for some that haven't been in O gauge the whole time, but just because they catalog an engine with Legacy doesn't mean they intend to change the tooling if it a rerun of something already done. Look through the catalog and you will see a lot of steam and diesel that have nothing more than upgraded electronics or new paint schemes. Example: The recent Legacy SD-60 is the exact same engine I bought back in 2000 with Legacy electronics. The fuel tank is still way too high off the rails and the details aren't up to today's standards for new tooling. Lionel and MTH usually don't bother making changes to tooling when they re-release an engine. I would assume that is for cost savings.

Well, I love mine.  I posted pictures about how simple it was - really a fun little project -  to cover the coal load with real coal -- I did the S2 and my older TMCC T1, which had the identical stamping as a coal load - at the same time.  With that one change, the Legacy S2 is a really nice loco and the T1 looks better, too.  

I talked to Mike at York on Thursday and he told me that they are going to send all of the S-2's back to the vender to be reworked. Then after they are received back from the vender, they will be sent back out. 

He also told me that if the engine isn't sent back to be reworked, it sounded to me that Lionel will not back those engines. And that there maybe some unhappy customers if their engine was not reworked.

 

I told him about my first one with the problems and about me getting one the appears to be problem free. I then asked him if he was in my shoes what should do? And he told me that I should return it back. After that I went and talked to Chris from Nicholas Smith which is where I purchased the good one from. I explained to him what Mike had told me and he told me that he has not heard anything from Lionel on the S-2's and that he still has the bad S-2's. 

 

My real question is if this is really going to happen, how are the already owners of the S-2's going to find out what Lionel is going to do with the S-2-s.

 

 

What you report is bizarre: a company that decides to honor its warranty obligations only if people have returned a product that arrived (like mine) in good condition?

 

R e a l l y ! ! !

 

Mine is perfect.  Looks good, no problems, etc.  I love it - with the real coal load added, but okay . . .    No possible reason to send it back. But I will expect Lionel to honor any warranty problems, should I have them - which frankly I doubt will happen.

 

 

After I got my S-2 home,  noticed some white deposits on the bottom of the tender ladder, even tho I checked it out earlier.  Opened up the tender and saw no signs of corrosion.  Runs great.  Like Paul, I also talked to Mike Regan early on Thursday at York.  Didn't get the impression that Lionel would rework the engines.  Was told only that they would be unsupportable since they wouldn't have parts.  Mike's explanation for the moisture was that water is used to eject the packaging from the mold and there is a drying process to remove the moisture.  This was not done and the foam packaging contained water.  Checked with the parts table at Lionel to see if they had the tender ladder from the T-1 since Lionel used the same tender for the T-1.  No luck in finding the ladder.  I like the engine but there is still the question of what Lionel will eventually do.

 

 

Paul, this is a very different story than what I've heard from several dealers.  Can you clarify what Mike meant by "after they are received back from the vendor, they will be sent back out"?  

 

Sent back out to the consumer who returned it?  Or sent back out to the dealer network for sale to the general public?  

 

Perhaps I'll call Lionel customer service this upcoming week to inquire on the status of my return, 'cause I was told explicitly by both Charles Ro (where I purchased my loco) and by Lionel customer service that I should return the locomotive to Lionel for a FULL REFUND.  I had attempted to return the S-2 to Charles Ro within their 10-day return period -- never put the loco on the tracks -- for an exchange purchase (different product altogether).   But they indicated I should return the loco to Lionel for refund due to this dampness/rust issue -- whether I thought my loco was dry or not.  They even emphasized that their could be dampness inside the tender, since I had indicated mine had no visible signs of rust -- just mild dampness on the inner product box as well as the instruction manual.

 

I'm not interested in getting a re-worked S-2 locomotive back from Lionel.  That's not why I returned it to them.  I'm expecting a complete refund as I was told would happen -- both by the dealer and Lionel.

 

David

Bud, here is the ladder..part no. 18.

 

Parts

Speaking to another forum member, a big dealer had one and he inquired about potential issue with dampness.  He told me that they said to take your chances. 

 

Again second hand. If true, what a deal. 

Gerry - Thanks for the info.

 

 

I have a good one from Charles Ro.  Charlie took every engine out of the box to examine them for the above mentioned problems.  He does have several good ones for sale.  On the plus side, the engine is a fantastic runner.  I am very happy with my engine.  

David, The way Mike talked they would be returned to either the customer or dealer, however way that they were received back at Lionel. This is what concerned me since I have not received my refund yet. This is when I questioned him about my refund... Later on in the conversation the way he talked was that I should return it to the dealer so he could return it to Lionel to have it reworked even though it appears clean.

 

Something is not right here, Paul.  All I can say is, WOW!!!  Well, another word comes to mind as well, but I won't say it here. 

 

I guess I'll be on the phone with Lionel first thing Monday AM to try and get to the bottom of this.

 

If, in fact, they are changing their tune about giving refunds as originally promised, then they're gonna have a MAJOR public relations mess on their hands.  I paid for my S-2 via credit card with an extended payment promo in place.  So I haven't lost actual funds YET.  But if they're no longer giving the refunds as we were first told when the products were returned, then I suppose I can always challenge the transaction with the credit card company.  Unfortunately, then Charlie Ro gets dinged for the charge-back fee (as the dealer)... which isn't right either (since he no longer has the product either).  This could get very messy very quickly if Lionel is back-peddling here.    And it doesn't need to get messy at all, if Lionel would just refund the monies as originally promised.  Hopefully, this is all a case of one part of the company not being on the same page as the other.  We shall see.

 

Stay tuned... I'll share any updated info I can after I speak with Lionel later today.

 

David

 

 

P.S.  BTW, I feel for ya here, Paul, 'cause as I understand it...  you went out and purchased a SECOND S-2 from Nicholas Smith Trains AFTER Lionel and Charles Ro represented that Lionel would give you a refund on the first model you purchased from Charlie Ro if you returned it back to Lionel.

 

I just checked my paperwork... Lionel instructed me to send the product back for refund on September 12, and the next email I received from them was on September 17 acknowledging that they received it.  So I'm about 5+ weeks into the process right now. 

 

Folks, until Lionel makes an official statement on how they're really gonna handle this mess, I'd stay clear of purchasing ANY of these units that may still be out there in the market -- regardless of how the dealer represents the condition of the product.

Yes! Mine is just a fantastic runner.  And that very heavy tender - wow!  That might have something to do with it.  And being a steam turbine, its a little different as to sound  (which I have no idea is prototypical or not, but nice and very distinctive) and look - all of which makes it a bit refreshing to run: not a standard steamer, not a diesel, not even a gas turbine with that big whoosh the Verandas and GTELs have.  

 

I am sorry so many people have problems and feel for Lionel - who probably didn't create the problem (their shipper did) but definately has a black eye because they really should have delineated how they were going to treat the issue more clearly, much sooner.

Actually, it's the fault of whatever company made the styrofoam.  Don't know if that's the same manufacturer of the trains, or if they buy it from a separate styrofoam manufacturer. 

 

The shipper had no control over the styrofoam not being cured properly before being packed up with the engines.

 

-Dave

Interesting - I had understood that some of rust problems came from the containers getting  damaged from water - would poorly cured styrofoam cause rust?  It would cause nasty problems, not doubt, but . . . 

Lee, apparently poorly cured Styrofoam releases moisture, which is the kiss of death for something packed in a tightly sealed cellophane bag.

Water is used to release the styrofoam from the mold. 

Ah, I see.  Bummer.  I guess I was just lucky.  I really looking mine over again this morning and see no signs of any rust or stains/corrosion, and it runs perfectly.  Really is a nice loco, at least with a real coal load now.

As disappointed i was to miss out because my LHS's were ruined, I now have a big down payment for my Big Boy.