New ZW-L. Any tips?

Great purchase! No previously released product has single handedly upgraded the way we run our trains.

 

First off, you no longer need the fast acting breaker box, they seem to trip at lower amps than the ZW-L and this unit can really supply the amps to run those passenger trains.

 

You can sell off your trainmaster variable control boxes. This puppy can run remote control variable voltage for your conventional engines.

 

I like the fact that this unit can replace two ZW post war units and easily split up voltage required from other controls.

 

My emergency power cut works now from cab 2 no more remote power cutoff switches are needed to hang around my neck.

 

I don't have to deal with my post war ZW's getting hot during operating sessions

 

The amp and voltage meter is a great plus.

The ZW-L will replace a ZW-C.  The ZW-C will replace a PW ZW that was running some smaller loops and accessories.

 

At this point all my transformers will be command.  Looking forward to the added power of the L.

Marty for me it has been a great transformer. I use each dial for a channel on my mainline TIU. It has a fast acting breaker and it is great, that it only kills the respective handle and zone or channel if there is a derail. And with the slide switch to connect all four channels on the rear, it has gotten me to operate my old NYC conventional equipment with the Legacy remote. It a beast for sure.

Marty, I just use the MTH Z-1000 Brick to power my Legacy system.

 

Marty, definitely superior power handling but here's a few observations on some details involving Z-Stuff pieces:

*  Common is not necessarily common.  In order to get common across the circuits I cannot rely on a direct connection in the transformer to supply a common.  I must always make an explicit connection to cover my grounding.

* In powering Z-Stuff and the track I had to either use all Zw-L or all PW ZW as I was getting intermittent flashing on the switch machines.  Dennis and I couldn't come up with any good reason here.

A general comment:

*  I don't run any conventional and don't find the command mode very useful.  When I power up I always have to bring the power up to on all 4 to run.  An extra step that is annoying to me.  If there is a command way to get around this on power up I'm all ears.

 

Overall I love it but I have had some interesting debugging sessions that didn't always make sense.  

 

You asked for feedback so there's some real world experiences...  Hope it helps. 

Thanks for the feedback!

Well some interesting results and or issues.

 

When setup as a TR, the ZW-L and the layout operate as expected.

 

When setup as an engine, the control of the ZW is as expected but the engine will come up hit or miss in conventional.

 

Connections per instructions.  The ZW-L is on the same loops my ZW-C was connected to without issue.  Any thoughts?

LionelAG how about doing a Legacy recording and run it when you start up. That will get you up and running in a couple of keystrokes.

Ron

Marty,

No advice to offer regarding the ZW-L but I am anxious to hear your impression of it when compared to your ZW-C as that's what I have and I've been considering an upgrade to the L.

Don't drop it on your foot, it's a heavy sucker!

Can you elaborate on the engine hit or miss part?  I'm not getting what you mean.

 

Are you talking about a conventional engine or TMCC/Legacy engine?

 

Do you have the Engine type for the ZW-L ID's set to XFRM (or something close to that, I'm not at my layout at the moment) for the engine type?

 

-Dave

I'd have to try this to confirm for myself, but is it not logical to Put the Transformer in Conventional mode and just leave the handles dialed up physically set to the voltage you want.  This should (I think - again, I didn't go try it just now confirmed) put the voltages to the track when you hit the power switch.  (I'm somewhat certain the ZW-L does not have the same characteristic of the Z4000 where the voltages don't come up if the handles are already set when powered on also confirmed)

 

It's important to note the "Command/Conventional" switch on the transformer doesn't relate to what type of engines you are using, but how the transformer will respond.  (Which makes sense since the engines will see the command base no matter what you do with the transformer.)  If you don't wish to vary the voltages with the remote, this may be the answer.  (further disclaimer since I didn't go and play to confirm - I don't know the effect on the halt button if you do this.)  Note that the halt button has no effect on the track voltages when operating this way.

 

Hope this may help.

 

-Dave

 {edited to reflect experiments I just did}

That's exactly the way I am running it now.  Other than conventional engines, I'm not sure there is value to the command mode.  Just exploring options and features I may miss running the ZW-L in conventional mode.

MartyE,

   I would like to invest in a ZW-L someday also, the fast acting breakers and the additional power seem to be a good investment, however I am concerned about this floating ground I keep hearing about, not sure what this means and how the ZW-L would match up on my layout with the Z4K & the DCS TIU.  As you get more familiar with the ZW-L please let me know some of the things you have encountered about running both Legacy & DCS with the ZW-L.

PCRR/Dave

I'm running full command. When the ZW is assigned as an engine, the command engine will intermittently come up in conventional. I get a lot of odd things happening and one of them is the big boy coal load randomly loading. 

 

Assigned as transformer.   Not sure why the engines would care Whether the transformer is an engine or tr. 

OK.  I misunderstood your comment.  I re-worded my response after confirming my suspicion on how the transformer would behave.

 

I mistakenly thought you were not liking having to spin the red knob on the CAB-2 to bring the voltages up on the track.  That is what my solution above eliminates.  But, as I also confirmed, this caused the halt button to not remove track power as well.  So the value to the Command Mode is at least partially that you still have the Halt safety net if something goes wrong.  For me, dialing up the voltages with the remote in command mode is a small trade off to retain the Halt key safety net.  Also, for those of us that do operate some mix of conventional sometimes, the way Command Mode works is very useful!

 

-Dave

 

OK, that does sound really odd.  Sorry, but I have nothing to help that.  I don't have a BB to see if it does something similar here, but I haven't seen that type of intermittent behavior with any of my engines.  I've had the ZW-L set as "engines"  (XFRM) for quite a while, so if it was a global "unintended feature" , I think I might have bumped into it by now on my set up.

 

Best of luck to you in hunting this down!

 

-Dave

Marty I am curious are you assigning each output of the ZW L A-U, B-U, C-U, D-U its own ID,  individual ID number as a TR or Eng or are they all the same number, trying to recognize what you are seeing. For me I run them as TR 1-4 and have no issue to date. Hope I am clear.

When assigned as TR91-94 all works as expected. When assigned ENG91-94 as I raise the voltage the command engines come up intermittently in conventional. They do not respond to commands from the Cab 2. 

Marty,

Just curious, I'm assuming that your Legacy base is connected to the ZW-L via the extra ground post provided on the L. Any difference in behavior if you connect your Legacy base directly to an outside rail?

And how was your ZW-C connected to the track?

when you set them up as an engine, do you also set the type to XFMR?

 

Just curious Marty, what was the attraction of the ZW-L if you run strictly command?  While I think it's certainly an impressive transformer, being another strictly command person, I find the PH180 bricks to be the ideal power source.

 

John

 

I gotta helluva good deal on it. And no there is nothing wrong with it. It's gotta be something simple. 

 

The he only thing that changed between the ZW-L and C connections is the post on the ZW-L for the track signal wire. Might try to add a command wire to the track. That being said what mis a bit of a miff is why TR works perfectly. 

Besides the small issue I am having with the transformer set as an engine, if I had to pay retail of even the discounted prices the sponsors are offering I'd be disappointed.  My ZW-C was fine for my layout. 

 

If I didn't get the L at a great price, I would do what GRJ recommended and just go with the 180 bricks.  The meters are a nice touch but not worth the cost over the bricks and a TMCC lock on or other in-line breaker.  If you need to have variable voltage just ad the Legacy PM or a TPC device.

 

Don't get me wrong it's a nice transformer but for the price these are going for on the open market, I think you could do better.  Maybe once I have more time under my belt I'll feel more excited but for now it delivers as promised but just doesn't make me want to buy another one with the other options you could use.

MartyE,

   Your analysis is right on the money about the ZW-L cost, it's why I still have the Z4k and the ZW's & KW's. Keep the bricks however, they limit you to much.  I know Guns loves em, we definitely differ on this particular powering set up point. I want something with Channels I can control with handles, for operating all kinds of different switches and accessories, when needed.   My one big beef with the Z4K is that the handles need to be reset at each usage, foolish limiting engineering no doubt about it.

PCRR/Dave

I will say, the ZW-L has a good feel to the handles.  Much better than the PWC and previous ZW controllers.  Over all a much better built transformer, and it really looks cool.  But again steep $ for the cool factor.

Marty,

When you assign the first ENG ID # the other three are automatically assigned the next sequential ID's.

 

So, when you program ENG #91 to XFMR, does it automatically assign the type to #'s 92,93,94 or would they need to be programmed manually?

When you assign 91 the other 3 assign automatically but you must go into the CAB2 and set them individually to XFMR.

Thanks, just trying to learn about the new beast.

Marty,

How are the transformer and your legacy base powered? Meaning what are they plugged into and do they get powered up at the same time with one switch or are they powered up separately?

 

Does powering the Legacy base first have any impact?

I have a single wall switch with everything plugged into that.  All items (Legacy Base, ZW-L and PWZW powered up at once.  No issue.

Hi Marty, We bought a ZW L for the club. We had a big problem with it. It was out of phase with the Z 4000. We had to file down the plug and turn it around to get it to work right. We really should have sent it back to Lionel and let them look at it.

Jim D.

I have ZW-L and it has been great.  My only tip - put it somewhere that it can be seen.  It really looks amazing in my opinion and shouldn't be hidden.

 

Although the Halt button doesn't remove the track voltage in Conventional, it does stop all the Command engines. So maybe the most common use of stopping collisions, but not having to reset the track voltage is a good thing. And as well if there is a short, the ZW-L will still respond to shorts and remove the track voltage.

No extra breakers needed for the bricks, as they have the best circuit breakers of any transformer I'm aware of.  I run the bricks thorough the TIU, so I have variable voltage if I want it, and I see no need for handles.  I have a Z-4000, it's helping put a bow in the shelf behind me.

 

I have it so the ZW-L and the command base could get power at the same time, done this with the ZW-C without issue, but with the L the base comes on first and I use the ZW-L power switch to power it up.  There is usually 10 seconds and plenty of boot time for Legacy to engage.

I really don't think the issue I am having is a ZW-L problem as I said works well in TR mode.  Just not sure what happens in ENG mode that makes my engines want to come up in conventional.

 

I watched my BB last night as I experimented with the ENG setting.  The CAB lights all blinked indicative of looking for an non existent command signal.  Then popped on with sounds.  I'll figure it out.

 

The transformer is really nice but I do think on the retail and even sponsored level over priced.  But they seem to sell a lot of them so who am I to say.

Just to chime in, I use the halt button all the time to remove the track voltage in conventional.  Not with a ZWL, but a brick and a TPC or powermaster.  I can't imagine it being different with the ZWL.  But he's running all Legacy, so perhaps the point is moot anyway.

 I run my standard gauge trains with a TPC.  You can set a stall voltage, a max voltage and it really helps to fine tune the performance of conventional trains.  I use the halt button to take all the power off the track, and AUX1 - 4 to reinstate the stall voltage, which has been preset and is closer to the starting point of the engine.  And again, halt, to remove all the power to the track.  I would be surprised if you can't do all of the above with the ZWL.  It seems to be basically 4 bricks and 4 TPCs rolled into one.

Marty,

 

I had two Z4K's, and they were not enough for my layout, so I added a ZW-L when these came out. I was so pleased with the ZW-L that I bought another one to replace the two Z4K's, and it was a good decision. I am totally pleased with the two ZW'L's.

 

I have all the ZW-L handles set to maximum and the four outputs of each transformer thus provide 18.6V (rather constant level) to each input channel of my two TIU's.  I like their overcurrent sense feature for momentary shorts, etc. I run DCS and Legacy, but no conventional.

 

Alex

The key is the switch on the transformer which is set to either Command or Conventional.

 

When set to Command, it does as you suggest, all outputs respond to knob turning, halt works, I think stall and max can be set, etc.

 

When set to Conventional, the remote does not affect the outputs (and halt does not work), the transformer basically ignores the base, though TMCC/Legacy engines on the track will respond.

 

But we are drifting away from Marty's problem, which is a curious one.

 

-Dave

I've been working on becoming less smug and have been thinking getting a ZW L in conjunction with a Legacy Command set, I could pretend at least four loops on my conventional display are command control and that could help remove some smugness.

I think the above post has confused me just enough to take care of the problem and I'm gonna save some money.

 

I do not have the problem that you are having and I run my ZWL in engine mode to use my iPad to control the conventional engines. The only thing I can think of is there is a boot delay on Legacy which might cause this or try changing the momentum settings so the voltage reacts sooner rather than later to the remote.

Wow. Pretty impressive that Matthew waited so patiently for the opportunity to zing Marty on the smug comments.

 

 

Jeff

 

what are your settings under info?  

No zings, only sharing our mutual admiration for South Park with Marty, while exploring how I might add remote control to my small displays. But that topic is for another thread.

Marty has a great sense of humor that is contagious. He's Inspiring.

 

I enjoy some good nature ribbing.  If I can't take some zings, I shouldn't dish them out. 

Marty, considering your new experience with the ZW L what would you recommend for this situation...

To operate 4 loops with conventional trains using a Legacy command set you’d either need one ZW L or  4 PowerHouse power supplies to equal the power and 4 Legacy PowerMasters.

Using the MSRP the ZW L is $100 more at $899 vs the PH, PM combination at $800.  Looking at competitive pricing from forum sponsor’s websites you could find the ZW L or the PH, PM combination for about equal price.

It appears using the ZW L would be easier to install on an existing conventional setup.

So if one wanted to convert conventional 4 loop layout to remote operation of conventional trains would either of these setups be better than another or would you go with something else entirely?

Matt

 

Well when you put it that way...  The L would probably be easier to setup and get going for sure and would give you SMUG conventional operators a handle to hold onto.    But I believe your analysis is more correct than mine.  The ZW-L would probably be the wiser choice.  The only thing you'd loose is 720W vs 680.  IMO not enough to sway me away from the L with the facts you've stated.

 

Well played.  My only concern now is getting the ENG part working. 

Just chiming in, that sounds exactly like what that transformer was made for.  Running four conventional loops with a CAB2.  All in one cool, neat looking package.  I think I should get one for the standard gauge empire I'm going to put together some day.  Until then, I've got my bricks, TPCs, ARC, powermasters, and accessory transformer. Which all work great, but I can see the functionality of having them all inclusive.  Enjoy your transformer! 

 

 

Marty,

 

The Pgh. Ind. Hi-Railers have been using the ZW-L for a while now and here's my $0.02.

 

I seem to remember similar strange behavior when high-number engine ID's were assigned to the ZW-L, but we now use engine ID #'s 1-4 and have not experienced any strange behavior lately.

 

One thing that I would add to the discussion is that when you select the ZW-L engine ID, make sure the train brake is all the way up/off.  Sometimes, if the slider is down, the power will not go to the maximum handle position when you dial up the power.  I always adjust the slider up all the way when dialing up the power and don't touch the slider again until after I switch to an engine.

 

We used to use 4 Z-4000's at our setups (so that shorts/derailments could be quickly found and corrected without disrupting the other 3 mainlines), and we now only need one ZW-L.  The ability to remotely reset this transformer has been a real bonus at our Kennywood setup, since we prefer not to be inside the layout at this type of setup, and once turned on, we don't have to touch the ZW-L again until it is time to turn it off.

 

Andy

Marty,

So if you name the throttles as "ENGines" rather than "TRack/TRains" it appears the TMCC/Legacy signal is completely lost and the units are in conventional momentarily?

 

That would require the ground to be somehow disconnected internally would it not?

Could it actually be the base? Can you try another base to duplicate the issue?

Sorry for the late response Marty. My info is eng 12, xfmr, leg, no for sounds, and momentum is at 4.

 

Interesting Marty, some type of software issue is causing the transformer to somehow shunt/eliminate the Legacy signal then when you use ENG rather than TR?

Well here is what I noticed.  In TR as I stated the voltage seems to come up much quicker.  I have the momentum set to L.  If I slowly dial up the voltage the engines all search for the Legacy signal and pop back to conventional.

 

So my conclusion is the voltage isn't coming up fast enough in ENG mode even with momentum set to L.  I have a few more thoughts and will keep you all informed.

I've been following the mystery with growing interest. I was hoping you'd have it figured out yesterday. Here are some of the stupid thoughts someone with no electrical intelligence would consider....

While the transformer is plugged into it's own dedicated power source, break it in by leaving it on for couple hours at a time with it set up as engine. Take all the engines off the track than run it through the start up and shut down sequence continuously for an extended period.

Because I don't have much knowledge or experience with electronics I look at the instruments differently; like an infant that needs to be taught to behave correctly.

And finally if all else failed I'd probably drop it into a gunny sack, go out on my driveway, start jumping up and down while swinging the sack above my head and squawking like a chicken.

Seriously though, I hope someone who's had similar issues chimes in with better ideas and you get it set up and operating the way it should.

In the instructions it says to select XFMR when using ENG rather the TR so you'd think that would tell the software to see the assignment of ENG70 in this case as just another name for TR2. Maybe the issue is TR means Track to the transformer & Train to a consist of engines and the controller input and response is not actually 100% interchangeable? Might anyone else have one of these for you to try?

 

So this means that there is a minimum voltage where the command engines will come up in command. If whatever times out happens before that voltage is reached, the engines come up in conventional. And I guess, if they come up in conventional, they stay in conventional regardless of the presence of  a Legacy signal.

I wonder how long the voltage must be removed until the engines can reboot command?

 

Since you are using a Legacy hand held and the ZW-L will the halt button kill all track power to stop it?

Have guests use the halt button all the time, unless there is a pending crash. Then like me they stare in amazement as things unfold in slow motion... Don't like runaways!

The HALT button does work.  Even though the engines are coming up conventional, the transformer is not.

Is it possible to have this ZW come up at a specific voltage, say 15 or 18 volts, rather than having to spool it up from zero volts? A really interesting quirk you have discovered, and guessing required if you have multiple sets of consisted engines.

Maybe a Track button and a Train button on the new Legacy remote?

Am interested in which method you see and use as the better solution Marty.

 

Always felt the weakest ling in the DCS remote is using the thumbwheel to scroll and select. A friend says having a separate select button in the blank spot right underneath the thumb wheel would have been sweet. Think he is right.

The reason I didn't buy the L is that my C will come up to handle set voltage on B and C and the L doesn't.

 

My thoughts on the ZWL:

1. I used it to replace three ph180 and Legacy PM combos
2. It runs conventional engines very nicely, but it does not play well with QSI reverse boards
3. It makes it easier to wire the layout without the ph/pm combo
4. It is still fun to switch over to conventional and run trains with the handles every now and then.
5. I looks awesome
6. I run it as an ENG in XFRM mode most of the time with no problems with DCS or Legacy.  I do not have problems with TMCC engines starting in conventional.
7. I wire my Legacy directly to layout and not through ZWL.  I was having DCS issues with connecting the Legacy to the ZWL at the legacy post for some reason.
8. The breakers and power fold back are top notch
9. My analog volt and amp meters on my old control panel don't work well at low voltage
10. Halt button works with DCS remote and Legacy remote

On that part of the equation I am with Marty. 

 

I think Marty and I might have been talking with one of the Lionel reps at the same time about this at a York or two before the L was actually released.  I think at that time, the rep suggested he thought it would work the same as the ZW-C, but I was very happy when it turned out the way it did for the L.  (for using it for 4 conventional items, it's better than having to dial something down from max (IMO))

 

Just proves we all have our preferred methods of operating.  (It would have been a really neat trick if it had been programmable to set it for either behavior at the operator's preference, though)

 

-Dave

Well the C is along the lines of B and C being used for accessory voltage. No direction, bell, etc. BUT, it's also useful for TMCC which also likes the voltage to just go on with ON and not having to roll the throttle every time. I tried TR1 and Boost, but unlike the TPCs, the voltage went up and then falls back to zero Using boost.

The TPCs would be my only choice if it were not for the C. 

Why is it desireable to run the voltage up very time when starting command?

 

I know the intent of the B&C on the ZW-C, I'm just stating for my use habits, it's not optimum.

 

As to why I find it desirable to have to dial up the voltage in command, I'll say it's more of a fair compromise than a requirement.  I power several loops on a carpet central in one application.  I may not want to power up all the loops at a given time to play with something.  If I plan on leaving the loop with some sidings dormant, I can instead of having all the engines sit with power available in case I accidentally were to address one when I didn't mean to.

 

While I haven't practiced doing it this way myself, I think you can set the L to behave as one track instead of 4 separate controls, that way you would only have to dial one up (I think) in order to apply power to all. 

 

-Dave

Seems like a firmware change allowing setup to select zero or handle voltage for each channel on turn on would sell many ZW-Ls...

Wonder how hard that would be to do.

I want one, but for my use it would be a step backwards. I never run conventional, but when I have, I have to think before switching on .

Marty, since you are setup as an engine can you set a stall voltage?  That should apply a minimum power at the first speed step. That may get around your problem.  I have a zwl but i have it configured as tr and not engines. What advantage are you getting using it as an engine?