Norfolk and Western Class A in Fine ART

I cancelled my Kohs big boy and demanded my money back. I got it but I had to fight for it and I was ready to take him to court to get it. I wouldn’t reserve a model with him using your money. 

Sorry to hear that you had such trouble getting your money returned, but after almost 5 years, I do not dare to put a deposit on the Class A.  I feel sorry for those people who have not received the Big Boy and have put 2 deposits on the project with no end in sight.

George diSanti

Don’t be sorry, I got my money back

George,

FAM (Fine Art Models) produced 1/32 scale models, not 1/48.  It was run by Gary Kohs (George's brother) who passed away earlier this year.  Not sure of what will become of FAM, although I believe George Kohs as mentioned possibly producing some 1/32 and HO models in the future.

BH

I'm NOT disagreeing with any of the above, nor am am I trying to defend ANY importer, but I don't recall seeing anything brass "O" coming out of the "pipeline" too quickly. Add to that, getting a substantial number of people to agree on any project is a major task in itself. The BIG hope I see for future models is that technology will ease/speed the process.

Simon

Very true Simon.  Seems everyone's projects, except SS 3rd Rail, take many, many years. 

BH

up148 posted:

George,

FAM (Fine Art Models) produced 1/32 scale models, not 1/48.  It was run by Gary Kohs (George's brother) who passed away earlier this year.  Not sure of what will become of FAM, although I believe George Kohs as mentioned possibly producing some 1/32 and HO models in the future.

 

BH

FAM produced all the Lionel Smithsonian passenger cars in 1/48.

Yes, that is correct. But, that was a special order FAM did for Lionel. I believe it was the only 1/48th scale models they ever imported. 

BH

rdunniii posted:

up148 posted:

George,

FAM (Fine Art Models) produced 1/32 scale models, not 1/48.  It was run by Gary Kohs (George's brother) who passed away earlier this year.  Not sure of what will become of FAM, although I believe George Kohs as mentioned possibly producing some 1/32 and HO models in the future.

 

BH

FAM produced all the Lionel Smithsonian passenger cars in 1/48.

On that subject, I see some called/listed as FAM and some as Lionel Smithsonian. From what I read, FAM produced the Smithsonian stuff in both 2 and 3 rail, and then additional 2R cars were imported under FAM. Anyone care to expand on/correct this???

Thanks,

Simon

I guess the question that needs to be asked is: 

What other importer besides Kohs would you like to see produce the Class A in a timely manner?

George diSanti

George diSanti posted:

I guess the question that needs to be asked is: 

What other importer besides Kohs would you like to see produce the Class A in a timely manner?

George diSanti

Sunset/3rd Rail. Maybe they would even make models of the last versions of the Class A, with all roller bearing rods.

I’d like to see a builder with the Kohs level of detail and the sunset level of project length. If Kohs gets the big boy done, and I doubt he will, that will surly be his last model as nobody is willing to put huge deposits on models that take 10 years to deliver 5 of which are excuses for why it’s not done.

Hi,

The Class A deserves to be done better than what we've seen in the past.

I'd buy 2 or 3 if Sunset did them. If they did the 3 major variations in 50's era style I'd definitely get 3.

The high end stuff has gone pretty much out of my range for multiples, but If key announced it I'd buy one. Kohs wait has gotten too long for me to put that much money down. If he makes some other sort of ordering arrangements, I'm good for it.

Boy 16 years since posted as a new project and still no model.. Please go after him for mail fraud via the USPS , for none delivery of Merchandise.

Bob

7/06/07 - Our 'Big Boy' project continues to move towards production, unfortunately, not as quickly as most would like! The order of production will most likely change in the near future based on the lack of progress in obtaining reference material for other planned projects. If you are waiting for this project be assured that it will definitely be produced, we have over three thousand drawings on hand and a complete set of builder's photos, so all is in order to move ahead when the time is right. Be thinking about the versions that we should produce and do not hesitate to let us know your thoughts on that subject. Stay tuned for further developments in the coming weeks.

4/3/02 - This project has a new position in our schedule. A further update will be posted in the next few days.

When I reserved my big boy I was told by GK that I could expect my model by the end of 2017. Well here we are in the 2nd quarter of 2018 and he hasn’t even started

Matt are you sup-prized, I hope note. this is STOP with GK  standard operating procedures. In the Porno industry they call it fluff, tell you what you want to here.Then bring out the BS. There is a cell next to Bernie Ma doff with GK name on it.

Bill

I’m actually more surprised I got my money back and got it back so fast 

I have to concur with the ill feelings.  I swore off after the Challenger. Just not my way to do business. 

BH

Hot Water posted:

George diSanti posted:

I guess the question that needs to be asked is: 

What other importer besides Kohs would you like to see produce the Class A in a timely manner?

George diSanti

Sunset/3rd Rail. Maybe they would even make models of the last versions of the Class A, with all roller bearing rods.

Maybe they would make the ORIGINAL version of the Class A as shown below!

Just curious:  Do ANY of the importers give ANY figures for project fulfillment time?

Simon

I have some MMW models in order and he gives reasonable time frames. Right now he is at 2 years since he started taking deposits and has painted production samples in hand and his models are actually in production. 

The other aforementioned fellow is looking at 7 years since he took money and 4 years of nothing being done 2 of those years the only thing being done is excuses being made for nothing being done. 

Hot Water posted:

George diSanti posted:

I guess the question that needs to be asked is: 

What other importer besides Kohs would you like to see produce the Class A in a timely manner?

George diSanti

Sunset/3rd Rail. Maybe they would even make models of the last versions of the Class A, with all roller bearing rods.

I wouldn't touch Sunset, although they have several supporters on this thread. I have seen their European 0 outline stuff in 'action', the SNCF 141r springs to mind. Id rather go without. 

Limey posted:

Hot Water posted:

George diSanti posted:

I guess the question that needs to be asked is: 

What other importer besides Kohs would you like to see produce the Class A in a timely manner?

George diSanti

Sunset/3rd Rail. Maybe they would even make models of the last versions of the Class A, with all roller bearing rods.

I wouldn't touch Sunset, although they have several supporters on this thread. I have seen their European 0 outline stuff in 'action', the SNCF 141r springs to mind. Id rather go without. 

Well, to each his own, I guess. I have about 20 Sunset/3rd Rail locomotives and they all run VERY well, and are capable of pulling nice long trains (the C&O H-8 handles 55 2-Bay hoppers, with coal loads, with no problems).

George diSanti posted:

I guess the question that needs to be asked is: 

What other importer besides Kohs would you like to see produce the Class A in a timely manner?

George diSanti

He does not do many models but Jimmy Booth seems to do well with getting out State of the Art steam locomotives. 

His interest is mostly in western roads so it might be a stretch doing a Southern locomotive.

I did request to him that he considers doing the Southern SU box car in brass (as well as the WFEX 63xxx truss rod reefers) since these are archetypal truss rod cars that have appeal and ran for a long time AND were common all over the US. 

Limey posted:

I wouldn't touch Sunset, although they have several supporters on this thread. I have seen their European 0 outline stuff in 'action', the SNCF 141r springs to mind. Id rather go without. 

What is outline stuff ?

Limey posted:

Hot Water posted:

George diSanti posted:

I guess the question that needs to be asked is: 

What other importer besides Kohs would you like to see produce the Class A in a timely manner?

George diSanti

Sunset/3rd Rail. Maybe they would even make models of the last versions of the Class A, with all roller bearing rods.

I wouldn't touch Sunset, although they have several supporters on this thread. I have seen their European 0 outline stuff in 'action', the SNCF 141r springs to mind. Id rather go without. 

Well, considering that was a 2005 import (13 years ago if what I learned on the internet is correct), a lot has changed with all importers and the level of improvement has been exponential. Several videos of this loco running on u-tube and it seems to be quite a runner.

I have no interest in one, but your sweeping statement about Sunset is a bit harsh in my book. They make quality locomotives and are always on the leading edge of technology. I own several and although not on the detail level of KOH's or KEY, they cost 1/3  the price or less.  For new locos, they are the best bang for your buck in the hobby.

BH

rheil posted:

Limey posted:

I wouldn't touch Sunset, although they have several supporters on this thread. I have seen their European 0 outline stuff in 'action', the SNCF 141r springs to mind. Id rather go without. 

What is outline stuff ?

Prototype : did this really need clarification?

Their rendition of the Flying Scotsman wasn't so hot either, fortunately Lee Marsh are due to import this model to the standard it rightly deserves in the near future. 

At least George Kohs was responsible for the vast increase in quality of imports to Britain by raising the bar and letting UK importers know the standard that could and should  be reached. 

Sadly the German brass market is stuck in reverse and engaged in a race to the bottom. 

as always jmho 

n.

up148 posted:

Limey posted:

Hot Water posted:

George diSanti posted:

I guess the question that needs to be asked is: 

What other importer besides Kohs would you like to see produce the Class A in a timely manner?

George diSanti

Sunset/3rd Rail. Maybe they would even make models of the last versions of the Class A, with all roller bearing rods.

I wouldn't touch Sunset, although they have several supporters on this thread. I have seen their European 0 outline stuff in 'action', the SNCF 141r springs to mind. Id rather go without. 

Well, considering that was a 2005 import (13 years ago if what I learned on the internet is correct), a lot has changed with all importers and the level of improvement has been exponential. Several videos of this loco running on u-tube and it seems to be quite a runner.

I have no interest in one, but your sweeping statement about Sunset is a bit harsh in my book. They make quality locomotives and are always on the leading edge of technology. I own several and although not on the detail level of KOH's or KEY, they cost 1/3  the price or less.  For new locos, they are the best bang for your buck in the hobby.

 

BH

If i was going to buy a 141r it would be a second hand Fulgurex version  built by Kodama or a Lemaco / Lematec one, or if I had the soldering skill, which I sadly do not, a Semblat kit. 

Many years ago I owned a Sunset HO K4 , it was the worst locomotive I have ever owned.... bar non - period. It was total **** : Once bitten, twice shy, as we say here. 

So not a sweeping statement, more one born of a negative experience with a product. 

Just one negative experience and your done? So given my experience with George Kohs I should hate importers???

Simon Winter posted:

rdunniii posted:

up148 posted:

George,

FAM (Fine Art Models) produced 1/32 scale models, not 1/48.  It was run by Gary Kohs (George's brother) who passed away earlier this year.  Not sure of what will become of FAM, although I believe George Kohs as mentioned possibly producing some 1/32 and HO models in the future.

 

BH

FAM produced all the Lionel Smithsonian passenger cars in 1/48.

On that subject, I see some called/listed as FAM and some as Lionel Smithsonian. From what I read, FAM produced the Smithsonian stuff in both 2 and 3 rail, and then additional 2R cars were imported under FAM. Anyone care to expand on/correct this???

Thanks,

Simon

 

All Lionel Smithsonian passenger cars are 2-rail.  The Hudsons were done in both 2 and 3-rail (by FAM).  After FAM delivered the cars to Lionel they marketed additional cars under the FAM name.  Additionally, they took the 20th Century cars and repurposed them as Broadway limited cars.  Worked for the sleepers but not for the observation or the lounge cars.  A bit of a disaster ensued over those.  And the Broadway diner and RPO were never done in 1/48 (only 1/32) by FAM.

Limey posted:

rheil posted:

Limey posted:

I wouldn't touch Sunset, although they have several supporters on this thread. I have seen their European 0 outline stuff in 'action', the SNCF 141r springs to mind. Id rather go without. 

What is outline stuff ?

Prototype : did these really need clarification?

Their rendition of the Flying Scotsman wasn't so hot either, fortunately Lee Marsh are due to import this model to the standard it rightly deserves in the near future. 

At least George Kohs was responsible for the vast increase in quality of imports to Britain by raising the bar and letting UK importers know the standard that could and should  be reached. 

Sadly the German brass market is stuck in reverse and engaged in a race to the bottom. 

as always jmho 

n.

Well, we're comparing apples with oranges. Lee Marsh puts out a KOH's/KEY quality model. Sunset/3rd Rail caters to a different market, at a different price point. 

But, the old Sunset HO models are definitely in a different class. Sunset back in the 70's, 80's and 90's offered much cheaper models to get into the market from what I remember. There were also some really bad builders back then. So all importers had good models and bad models.

I bought some OMI HO back in the 70's and they truly were junk. Screws stripped out, side rods came off, ran like crap, etc. But, this was the beginning of the transition of the hobby from Japanese builders to Korean builders and there was a huge learning curve. Same thing happened in the transition from Korean to Chinese builders. 

Sunset/3rd Rail is Scott Mann (Mort's Son) and his models are a good value for the $$$$ and anything but junkers or subpar.  I think 3rd Rail had a lot to do with the resurgence of O scale in the 21st century. 

BH

Who is doing the New Brass Models that Lionel is selling/sold....I haven't seen it in the flesh, but people that did/have, thought it better than 3rd Rail Models..?

Maybe Lionel would do it, as I liked their Legacy and TMCC Versions......!

Brandy posted:

Who is doing the New Brass Models that Lionel is selling/sold....I haven't seen it in the flesh, but people that did/have, thought it better than 3rd Rail Models..?

They only wish!  Those Lionel "hybrid" steam models have only a brass boiler but a generic diecast frame & running gear. Plus, so far they have only done a Santa Fe 2-8-2, apparently because they already had/have the diecast running gear from their light 2-8-2 models, previously done.

Maybe Lionel would do it, as I liked their Legacy and TMCC Versions......!

I would love to see the MMW drive in a steam engine. Has anyone ever asked Erik if he would ever produce a steam engine? Erik honors requests. Maybe if enough of us email him and request high end steam he would do it. Any takers?

George diSanti

Email him and ask him. Ive been asking him to do transition era diesels and cowl units for a while and have had conversations with him about his drive in a steam loco. Id be willing to bet that if he can garner enough interest in a steam loco he'd go all in and pull it off.

Brandy posted:

Who is doing the New Brass Models that Lionel is selling/sold....I haven't seen it in the flesh, but people that did/have, thought it better than 3rd Rail Models..?

Maybe Lionel would do it, as I liked their Legacy and TMCC Versions......!

Not by a long shot. Sunset is a consistent and respected brass importer. Lionel is, well, none of those. 

I agree on the positive Sunset comments.

Williams made a rugged Class A with an incorrect firebox.  If I ever get one for cheap, I will fix that, add a tailbeam, and call it a day.  Not quite as good as Sunset, but it would satisfy me (as does the "J").

The post is about bringing in a "HIGHEND" Norfolk and Western Class A brass model in a timely manner. Sunset and Lionel brass models do not fit this category. The only "HIGHEND" importers are Key Imports, Kohs, and now Mr Lee and MMW that come to my mind.   The problem with Key Imports is that he wants orders without revealing the price and his models are not delivered in a timely manner.  The problem with Kohs, such as with the Big Boy, is that 2 deposits have been collected ($4000) and it is now going on 5 years and, according to Matt, the model hasn't started production.   I believe I would take Matt's suggestion and ask MMW for the N&W steam locomotive with his drive

George diSanti

I’m going to sit down and tell my story on this and other forums about what happened with Kohs and my big boy reservation. I just need to sit down and do it. What is going on there is wrong and people need to be aware of it so they can make an informed decision as to whether they want to buy into one of his projects. He is planning on doing HO models so there’s a whole new set of victims he can prey on. People need to know.

George diSanti posted:

I would love to see the MMW drive in a steam engine. Has anyone ever asked Erik if he would ever produce a steam engine? Erik honors requests. Maybe if enough of us email him and request high end steam he would do it. Any takers?

George diSanti

Erik did develop a drive for a Sunset N&W J many years ago and it still resides in his workshop. His latest drive is however a much superior product. 

Matt Makens posted:

I’m going to sit down and tell my story on this and other forums about what happened with Kohs and my big boy reservation. I just need to sit down and do it. What is going on there is wrong and people need to be aware of it so they can make an informed decision as to whether they want to buy into one of his projects. He is planning on doing HO models so there’s a whole new set of victims he can prey on. People need to know.

Matt I will look forward to your comments. Should be very interesting what you bring forward.Yes people need to be informed.I know a person Mark Russel CEO of Wilcox International one of the first to sue GK for models never received.

I hope this does not get censored once you post it. Most items about GK get the axe.

Bob Harris

rdunniii posted:

Simon Winter posted:

rdunniii posted:

FAM produced all the Lionel Smithsonian passenger cars in 1/48.

On that subject, I see some called/listed as FAM and some as Lionel Smithsonian. From what I read, FAM produced the Smithsonian stuff in both 2 and 3 rail, and then additional 2R cars were imported under FAM. Anyone care to expand on/correct this???

Thanks,

Simon

 

All Lionel Smithsonian passenger cars are 2-rail.  The Hudsons were done in both 2 and 3-rail (by FAM).  After FAM delivered the cars to Lionel they marketed additional cars under the FAM name.  Additionally, they took the 20th Century cars and repurposed them as Broadway limited cars.  Worked for the sleepers but not for the observation or the lounge cars.  A bit of a disaster ensued over those.  And the Broadway diner and RPO were never done in 1/48 (only 1/32) by FAM.

THANKS MUCH!

Simon

I have to come to realize that the brass importers operate in such a way that if the project is listed on one of the importers porject list most of the other importers will not touch it  because competition in brass can kill a project. You get three importers with the same project there may be enough reservations to get it done with one importer but split it up between two or three and that dilutes the pool to the point where neither of the importers can get enough reservations. GK has 4 locos on his list that I want but he cant get projects delivered in a timely fashion and the decades long reservation process he runs is killing his business. I cant believe anybody, including me, would give somebody with his track record of stringing projects along for 10 or 12 years a dime for a model, especially since he is 68 years old. If he pulls off the big boy, which I doubt he can, he will not get enough reservations to do any more models in any scale. If GK falls out of the brass model importing business then all those projects he has locked up on his project list will be free for the other two or three left to make and do in a timely fashion.

Matt - since PSC is retired, looks like GK is not far behind. Looks like the new kid on the block maybe our only choice?

George diSanti

Lee Marsh is coming into the US O sclae market

Limey posted

 

Sadly the German brass market is stuck in reverse and engaged in a race to the bottom.

If you have a moment and the inclination, I'd appreciate clarification on what you are saying there.

Best rgds, SZ

Steinzeit posted:

Limey posted

 

Sadly the German brass market is stuck in reverse and engaged in a race to the bottom.

If you have a moment and the inclination, I'd appreciate clarification on what you are saying there.

Best rgds, SZ

See below, museum quality(?) locomotive for less than e3000 with a minimum radius of less than a metre, it doesn't add up.

http://www.spurnull-magazin.de...gt-br-41-in-messing/

When I asked Wunder why the V160 in brass was cancelled the reply I received was that today Germans would not pay the e1800 or so for a brass diesel. 

In the UK Masterpiece can get a high end diesel project off the ground for around £3300 or double the price at todays exchange rate.

Germans want maximum model for minimum price, common sense says something has to  give, invariably the detail.  This is self evident by the lack of high end brass being made for the German market , Lemaco/Lematec have clearly given up on Germany.  

I own one MBW diesel as the V221 will now clearly not be manufactured in brass to 1.43.5 and I am not impressed. The Lenz I have seen and used is of comparatively good quality though.

I hope this clarification suffices, the facts speak for themselves. My German collecting is now confined to ebay and secondhand dealers.

Limey posted:

Steinzeit posted:

Limey posted

 

Sadly the German brass market is stuck in reverse and engaged in a race to the bottom.

If you have a moment and the inclination, I'd appreciate clarification on what you are saying there.

Best rgds, SZ

 

I own one MBW diesel as the V221 will now clearly not be manufactured in brass to 1.43.5 and I am not impressed. The Lenz I have seen and used is of comparatively good quality though.

 

 

If your post is about 1:43.5 I completely agree with you. All high end and low end German 0 manufacturers including Kiss have chosen to use the correct scale of 1:45 and not 1:43.5. The English manufacturers, also high end, still use the wrong scale of 1:43.5. Of course that is no problem if you are just running trains, but if the website (like Masterpiece models) is mentioning "Our objective is simply to produce the most accurate model possible " using a wrong gauge/scale combination seems a bit odd.

Regards

Fred

Of course that is no problem if you are just running trains, but if the website (like Masterpiece models) is mentioning "Our objective is simply to produce the most accurate model possible " using a wrong gauge/scale combination seems a bit odd.

It does seem odd, doesn't it?  I vote for 17/64 scale for the upper end models.  Proto-48 is the most accurate, of course, but beyond my track laying skills.

sncf231e posted:

Limey posted:

Steinzeit posted:

Limey posted

 

Sadly the German brass market is stuck in reverse and engaged in a race to the bottom.

If you have a moment and the inclination, I'd appreciate clarification on what you are saying there.

Best rgds, SZ

 

I own one MBW diesel as the V221 will now clearly not be manufactured in brass to 1.43.5 and I am not impressed. The Lenz I have seen and used is of comparatively good quality though.

 

 

If your post is about 1:43.5 I completely agree with you. All high end and low end German 0 manufacturers including Kiss have chosen to use the correct scale of 1:45 and not 1:43.5. The English manufacturers, also high end, still use the wrong scale of 1:43.5. Of course that is no problem if you are just running trains, but if the website (like Masterpiece models) is mentioning "Our objective is simply to produce the most accurate model possible " using a wrong gauge/scale combination seems a bit odd.

Regards

Fred

They offer S7 which is completely scale. I will stick with 32mm gauge, can you see the extra which is less than 1MM although it is rounded out to 33MM. My point was that the German market will not pay for Kohs type quality.

bob2 posted:

Of course that is no problem if you are just running trains, but if the website (like Masterpiece models) is mentioning "Our objective is simply to produce the most accurate model possible " using a wrong gauge/scale combination seems a bit odd.

It does seem odd, doesn't it?  I vote for 17/64 scale for the upper end models.  Proto-48 is the most accurate, of course, but beyond my track laying skills.

My first question is: How many of these UPPER END models do you buy? If the answer is ZERO, then why do you care????? O Scale has been 1/48 and 1.25" gauge for years.

Even the P48 modelers use 1/48 above the wheels, so it looks like it's just you in for the 17/64.

GOOD LUCK!

Simon