When I was at my LTS this past Saturday he had said to me if I heard. I said yes, that's what it used to be to which he said yes. Regardless of how many days it is, if you're not coming because of the changes other than it being an it being inconvenient, that I understand. If it is to snub them, I can understand that too. Myself, I will go to have fun, that's what I will do.

I started going to York in 1983 when it was a two-day meet. I have been going to the three-day meets. I will continue to go to the two-day meets as long as I can breathe.

Do I like the three-day meets? Absolutely! However, I can see the Eastern division's dilemma. Costs are skyrocketing everywhere. We have a decreasing membership base. Yes, the Eastern division rents the York Fairgrounds for the entire week. However, the cost between the two day meet in the three day meeI it is substantial. Let's look at one aspect of cost (there are many others, I'm sure).

Even though I am a physician, I am really a small business owner. The most expensive item on my practice's ledger is personnel. Think of the savings that the Eastern division is going to have by only having to cover two days worth of Hall security guards and only paying for the medical backup for two days. The cost savings will be substantial.

One might say "cut back on the numbers of personnel". However, we have to have these people. The place needs security. Certainly, with the age demographics of our fellow members (me included. When I started to go to York, I was 30. Now I am 66), we need the medical backup. It frankly just saves lives.

My opinion: York will change and we will adapt so that we will continue to have a great time.

My bag is packed. See you all in a few weeks.

Peter

MartyE posted:

Everyone does remember when York was Friday and Saturday only, right?  

Yes.  And we'll all survive with a return to the two-day event.

Our group had a great schedule with the Friday-Saturday Meet "back in the day" - so, we'll just return to that schedule (or find something new, different, worthwhile) of things to do.

 

 

RT   

I can live with the 2 day event PROVIDED!!!   Saturday is for the full time.  There are always threats to the people with tables who pack up early, but nothing is really done. That situation where 3 things are on the table till the end is BS.   As we age, getting to all halls is getting more difficult in just 2 days.  I imagine most of the suggestions to go back to 2 days are those who just want to get there, get it over with and go home.  OK  that's my 2 cents worth.  

 

caboose1 posted:

I can live with the 2 day event PROVIDED!!!   Saturday is for the full time.  There are always threats to the people with tables who pack up early, but nothing is really done. That situation where 3 things are on the table till the end is BS.   As we age, getting to all halls is getting more difficult in just 2 days.  I imagine most of the suggestions to go back to 2 days are those who just want to get there, get it over with and go home.  OK  that's my 2 cents worth.  

 

Can I get an amen, brother!

I don't know how to really enforce staying until the end, but I think it's the right thing to do.  At the last 2-day York that I attended, my recollection is that Saturday was fairly busy until noon-ish, but maybe my memory isn't so good.

And if anyone wants to "get there, get it over with and go home", why are they going in the first place? 

Mallard4468 posted:
if anyone wants to "get there, get it over with and go home", why are they going in the first place? 

Most go to sell stuff, but SOME go to 1. Show off the "valuable" stuff they have. The same stuff that has been overpriced since the 1980s. 2. The ones that are there to "socialize", and talk about the good old days. 3. The ones getting away from a nagging wife. They may have told her that they were going on their bi-annual religious retreat. 4. Some look like they are bored to tears by 1 pm on Thursday. They are the ones who REALLY want a 2-day meet.

   Listening to the EDTCA President Dan Danielson during his pre show announcements last Thursday, it was announced that all shows going forward from last week will be 2 day shows. There was an statement made sometime over the past 2 months that April 2020 was going to be an experiment, but that now doesn't seem to be the place. I'm going to miss the Thursday start. 

Should make it Thursday and Friday and dump Saturday. All the folks that say they have to work don’t justify the lack attendance on Saturday. 

Just my opinion.  Regardless thanks to the EDTCA for a great time!

Marty

 

Below the Signature...

"You should have bought a train."

 

If it’s only 2 days, will that help stop vendors packing up early? I was there on Saturday morning in the red hall and also orange hall some people were already packing up before noon.  One vendor was one I was coming back to to buy diecast. As a result I couldn’t buy as he had packed up 2/3 if his display. As a first timer, we hadn’t made it yet to all of the vendors on Thursday and Friday and frankly it took away from the experience a bit on Saturday.  At our local shows there is a strictly enforced policy on this. I could understand if it was in the last hour, but this was before lunch. I see it as a missed opportunity for those vendors and as an attendee I didn’t like it. Just my 2 cents....

The rest was awesome!!!

Gerhardt - G’s O Scale Trains ....  waaaay up in Canada 

 

 

1) disappointed with change to 2 days, but will still go

2) 3 days allowed a more enjoyable leisurely experience, time to socialize, ability to get to all the halls

3) 2 days means I will probably not cover all the halls, which means less purchases by me, and perhaps others.

4) they could enforce the "no early pack up" in all halls... they all have hall monitors.  If you pack up early, you cannot sell at the next meet.

5) regarding #4, if some are penalized, maybe they will shut down one of the halls, which means less cost  for security and more consolidated browsing  (no more Brown hall - I really don't miss it!  Still plenty to shop)

OR...

what Marty said...

Home of the Union Eastern, Thomaston & Williamstown Railroad

I agree with Eddie. Saturday is a disappointment for everyone right now. Maybe it will become worthwhile over time. But for me traveling 7 to 8 hours one way from N.C. ,and two nights in a hotel, for what is essentially a one day meet doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Looks like I will have to try to combine a visit with the grandkids in the DC area and a day at the meet for it to make any sense. 

Saturday was always our travel home day. The new 2 day really makes it a one day affair. So we should spend a full day of driving each way to see a one day show. Not  me. Make it a Thursday/ Friday affair, dump Saturday. Let everyone pack and go home for the weekend.

 
  DETROIT 3 RAILERS

The "Saturday is a waste" idea seems to be a self-fulfilling catch 22 prophecy these days. 

Some sellers say to themselves "no one here buying so I'm packing up early" (ignoring that people can't be everywhere at one time, and it takes time to see the halls, as Gerhardt mentions above).  Some sellers tend to evaluate based on foot traffic over an hour's time, and decide to give up and start packing it up (or even totally bail) in the early hours.

Buyers then say "Why do I want to bother going on Saturday, with everyone packing up or gone?". 

Repeat.  And it all comes true that way and Saturday continues to be a waste.  This drove me nuts too when I was a buyer.  Sellers say "well you should have come earlier".  Well, I was there earlier, but you can't see the whole Fairgrounds in one hour to peruse every table in the first 1 1/2 hours of the meet.

HOPEFULLY, the change means people give Saturday another chance.  It might actually be busier without Thursday leading off.  But it won't be if everyone has already decided that Saturday will still be a waste before even giving it a chance.

There were probably people who didn't stay for Saturday back when it used to be just Friday and Saturday, but I suspect there were a lot more who stuck around than there are now.  I don't think it will ever return to the levels of those days, but hopefully this makes Saturday better.

As for me, with my small table setup, I sold 4 pieces (marketed and sold as 2 pairs actually, so really 2 sales - though I had single pricing available as well) of rolling stock on Saturday that I wanted gone.  My other sales were all on Friday, I sold absolutely nothing on Thursday.  $$-wise, probably about 35% of my take home was those Saturday sales. So I'm glad I was there, and the people who bought my items seemed happy with the prices they paid.

I did have a buyer who I had sold a few small items in the past wander past my table in the last half hour or so.  While I had started packing a little bit, I still had everything not yet sold on the table (I had put stuff back in shipping cartons though).  So I told him what was in all the boxes (recognizing him, but not remembering if it was from earlier this meet or previous ones when we had interacted).  He only had a chance to attend on Saturday.

As a seller who still likes to participate in the buying side of the transaction as well, my bigger concern is the lack of time after Member halls close to go browse the Dealer halls. 

In the 3 day format, we had 1 1/2 hours on both Thursday and Friday (5PM - 6:30 PM).  (and there is a chance it used to actually be 2 hours, didn't the Dealer halls used to close at 7 pm years ago? (I need to find an old meet flyer)). 

The new hours I am pretty sure end at 6 PM for Dealer halls on Friday, and on Saturday I don't think there is any time at all.  I believe both Member and Dealer halls close at the exact same time.  This is not good, IMO.  I'm not sure it's worth having a table when I have only one hour to browse on Friday after the Member halls close.  I'm pretty sure I'll still do it for April, but after that is to be determined.

-Dave

 

I had a fairly lengthy telephone call with Eastern Division President Dan Danielson a couple of days before the October Meet. Highlights of that call follow.

Dan initially indicated that only three decisions have been made by the Eastern Division regarding the York Meets. First, the April 2020 Meet will be Friday and Saturday. (Friday and Saturday hours in the dealer and member halls will be the same as they have been under the three-day Meet schedule.) Second, there will continue to be April and October Meets each year. Third, the Eastern Division was not prepared to keep the current three-day format for a once-a-year October Meet, although that alternative was raised by a number of individuals, including myself.

Dan indicated that the Eastern Division is very interested in getting input concerning the format of future York Meets from any and all TCA members and dealers who are interested, and from all TCA Divisions, not just the Eastern Division. I belong to METCA. Dan further indicated that the Eastern Division is also reaching out to the four manufacturers, as no approach concerning future York Meets will work unless the manufacturers are all in. Dan also indicated that it is entirely possible that the Eastern Division will go back to a three-day Meet format in the future, although it might be Friday, Saturday and Sunday, rather than Thursday, Friday and Saturday. (Like others, I was surprised when Dan indicated at the commencement of the Meet on Friday that the two-day format was a permanent decision, but I suspect he was just echoing the "party line" unless and until a different decision is made.) 

Two final points. First, Dan indicated that the Eastern Division's principal concern is attracting more members of the public to the York Meets and then converting them to become members, as the membership in the TCA ages and continues to decline, and will not be replenished from within. They figure that the best way to get the public there is on the weekends. Second, the Eastern Division recognizes that they have to advertise the Meets better than they have in the past, and in that regard they will be working with the Worlds Greatest Hobby Show principals to develop a marketing plan. This is very encouraging, as the Eastern Division has been unwilling to engage in such efforts in the past.  

irish rifle posted:

I had a fairly lengthy telephone call with Eastern Division President Dan Danielson a couple of days before the October Meet. Highlights of that call follow.

Dan initially indicated that only three decisions have been made by the Eastern Division regarding the York Meets. First, the April 2020 Meet will be Friday and Saturday. (Friday and Saturday hours in the dealer and member halls will be the same as they have been under the three-day Meet schedule.) Second, there will continue to be April and October Meets each year. Third, the Eastern Division was not prepared to keep the current three-day format for a once-a-year October Meet, although that alternative was raised by a number of individuals, including myself............

That's interesting, as the only option presented in the survey email (that matches Friday/Saturday) indicated that the Friday/Saturday hours would be Fri 9-6 dealers, 9-5 members, and Sat 9-3 both dealers and members.

That's NOT the same as what we had recently, including last week.  We had 1 1/2 hours of time after member  halls closed on Friday to visit dealer halls, and one hour on Saturday (members closed at 2, dealers at 3).

On a totally side note, re new memberships: One could argue from the issuing of new TCA numbers that people joining over the last 20 years has not been a problem.  The problem is getting people to stay and also participate in events like York.  A little over 20 years ago there were about 45-50,000 members.  That was when the organization was a little over 40 years old.  It's now 20 years later (organization now 65 years old), and I'm pretty sure we are around 74-75000 or so in the TCA numbers being issued (didn't have the latest HQ News handy, but I see high 73,000 numbers in one from early this year).  So while not door-busting numbers, the issuance of new numbers seems at least on par on a new members per year basis (some being trial members - which is of course a new thing). 

Of course eBay is a lot bigger than it was 20 years ago, and many people are either no longer able to participate or passing due to age, none of which anything can be done about.

-Dave

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:
Allan Miller posted:
Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

Allan referred to an OGR dinner.  Are they one of the same dinner as the Forum dinner?

we will attend Thursday.  Look forward to it,

There is only one OGR dinner/gathering/drinkfest or whatever. It was/is traditionally held on Thursday evenings. For some years it was a bit more "formally" organized, but in recent times has been more of an informal gathering where folks just show up after a day of shopping at the meet and get together with friends, old and new, who also happen to be OGR Forum members, readers of the magazine, or just anyone who may want to associate with such characters. The restaurant adjacent to the Best Western has undergone several changes of ownership over the years, but I believe it is still a Quaker Steak & Lube.

As long as I get to see your cheerful expression when talking to me Allan, that would be all I need(and Guinness). Whatever days get changed, we'll all still be there one way or another.

I can see why you'd need the Guinness.  

George

TCA, NMRA, PRRT&HS Modeling the PRR Panhandle Division between 1948-1957.

MartyE posted:

Should make it Thursday and Friday and dump Saturday. All the folks that say they have to work don’t justify the lack attendance on Saturday. 

Just my opinion.  Regardless thanks to the EDTCA for a great time!

I sort of agree. However, I can see people starting to pack up at noon on Friday.

irish rifle posted:

 

.

.

.

Two final points. First, Dan indicated that the Eastern Division's principal concern is attracting more members of the public to the York Meets and then converting them to become members, as the membership in the TCA ages and continues to decline, and will not be replenished from within. They figure that the best way to get the public there is on the weekends. Second, the Eastern Division recognizes that they have to advertise the Meets better than they have in the past, and in that regard they will be working with the Worlds Greatest Hobby Show principals to develop a marketing plan. This is very encouraging, as the Eastern Division has been unwilling to engage in such efforts in the past.  

If attracting the public truly is the goal, then Saturday should be a full day (9-5) for the dealer halls.  These are already open to the public, dealers are paying their employees, etc. - that should be used to full advantage.  Advertising to the public is also less than adequate. 

I am glad to see the Eastern Division addressing these issues.  I love going to York and will continue to attend regardless of format.

George

TCA, NMRA, PRRT&HS Modeling the PRR Panhandle Division between 1948-1957.

Just recently joined on October 2nd and TCA # is 19-74482 to give reference to above.   Got away from the hobby for about 20 years and lived 45 minutes from York during that time period.  Now back in the hobby and live in California without a fully finished basement which would of been ideal for layout.   My timing has never been all that great.

I hope to make it York for the first time perhaps in the Spring. 

G3750 posted:
irish rifle posted:

 

.

.

.

Two final points. First, Dan indicated that the Eastern Division's principal concern is attracting more members of the public to the York Meets and then converting them to become members, as the membership in the TCA ages and continues to decline, and will not be replenished from within. They figure that the best way to get the public there is on the weekends. Second, the Eastern Division recognizes that they have to advertise the Meets better than they have in the past, and in that regard they will be working with the Worlds Greatest Hobby Show principals to develop a marketing plan. This is very encouraging, as the Eastern Division has been unwilling to engage in such efforts in the past.  

If attracting the public truly is the goal, then Saturday should be a full day (9-5) for the dealer halls.  These are already open to the public, dealers are paying their employees, etc. - that should be used to full advantage.  Advertising to the public is also less than adequate. 

I am glad to see the Eastern Division addressing these issues.  I love going to York and will continue to attend regardless of format.

George

If the management is serious about attracting the public and and younger members, this is the bare minimum that needs to happen. Speaking as someone who attended their first York meet this past weekend (is also 31 and have attended many conventions and shows that are not train-related), the whole show is a mess in IMHO. Specifically the organization of the show and the public outreach, not necessarily the amount of dealers or product available. It was incredibly obvious that the best way to experience York was to already be familiar with it, and that this insular in-group dynamic is encouraged. This has to change if you want to attract the public (or not, but then you can't claim that you are interested in the public or new members).

Stephen

Just guessing but.....maybe a 2 or 3 day (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) all scales show open to the public.  Need layouts and heavy advertising for success.  Not sure how my O gauge needs fit into that ?  Advanced dealers list would be important.  After all, I'm not going to drive 5 hours one way if I can't satisfy my wants list.  Also, Friday would be important to me since I spend the weekend visiting (2 hours away from York) my brother-in-law and my nephew. 

Steve

jjwyatt posted:

Just recently joined on October 2nd and TCA # is 19-74482 to give reference to above.   Got away from the hobby for about 20 years and lived 45 minutes from York during that time period.  Now back in the hobby and live in California without a fully finished basement which would of been ideal for layout.   My timing has never been all that great.

I hope to make it York for the first time perhaps in the Spring. 

I can relate!  I lived a half hour from Charles Ro (and 6 hour drive from York) for 10 years and the whole time I didn't know O Gauge from a hole in the ground.  I moved a 1200 miles west and THEN decided to see what this train thing was all about. 

MikeH

colorado hirailer posted:

If down to a two day celebration, will Saturday's hours run longer, l hope, l hope.   

The hours could be set to 6 pm, and the packing up would still begin at 11 am. 

On another subject...could someone tell me what "advertising to the public" has actually been done? Anything?

And if dealers were heard complaining about the meet going to only 1 1/2 days, why did it? I assumed the dealers wishes were in back of this decision by the ED.

Joe Hohmann posted:
colorado hirailer posted:

If down to a two day celebration, will Saturday's hours run longer, l hope, l hope.   

The hours could be set to 6 pm, and the packing up would still begin at 11 am. 

On another subject...could someone tell me what "advertising to the public" has actually been done? Anything?

And if dealers were heard complaining about the meet going to only 1 1/2 days, why did it? I assumed the dealers wishes were in back of this decision by the ED.

I've seen social media posts from the TCA and the major manufacturers as well as vendors about the meet.  The problem I see is the public aspect of the event is more localized.  You won't have a family travel more than an hour at most to go to a train show.  The locality of the York event is not conducive to a large public turnout regardless of the advertising.  So IMO the public will never really be a large factor.  Just my opinion.

Marty

 

Below the Signature...

"You should have bought a train."

 

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