Pics of 14" Naval Railroad Gun model build

                     looking good Jesse !              here is one I recently ran across...

                       https://youtu.be/yUS4huzCQNw

Now that is what I'm talking about.

Looks interesting.

Brian, that is the first O gauge model of a nice RR Gun I have seen.  And I have been looking around for some time.  This Naval 14in was used in WWI, and is now on display in Aberdeen, Maryland.

Clarence, I decided if I did want, need, a large RR gun in my consist, I would have to build it myself.  So far have only used materials I have "laying around", the reason for the .25in MDF, plus I want to be certain it has a low center of gravity.  Did acquire some Plastistrut  styrene sheets for making the flanges, gussets and reinforce ribs on the MDF "iron structures".  Hoping to locate more information on this gun, once in use at Fort McArthur outside of Los Angeles.  Could use better detail in pics and drawings to assist.

Ron, yes I do hope it will turn out nice with the right detailing.  Fabricating the separate parts from scratch with materials on hand is making this interesting.   It will have some weight to it, but do want a low center gravity.  And when complete will be over 20in in length.  My curves on my layout are all 072 or larger on the mainlines, and all switches are 072 or larger.  Should be able to be good on parts of running the trackage, working out, and fabricating, the multi-truck dollies for underneath will be the key.

Jesse   TCA

Here is a WWII German gun in O gauge.  The cars in the background help show the size.

Bill, I had long considered to have a large RR Gun, it would have to be in a German or French design.  There are so many more German military items modeled then American.  Glad I was able to locate what I have on the Fort Mc Arthur 14in guns.  There were two stationed in the Los Angeles area to protect the harbor and facilities.  They came by rail across the country from Maryland and Pennsylvania.  But, there are no pictures surviving of them making the trip.  Most likely due to censorship of the relocation and vigilant agents along the route.  I have ordered a book and it states there is one picture of the 14in gun being pulled by a Southern Pacific GS-4 as it sits at the terminal in Los Angeles.  Waiting for the publication and any information I can obtain, should arrive any day...….  Great looking Axis RR Gun, sir.  How does she pull around the mainline?

Jesse   TCA

TEXASTRAIN, I spent most of my life, and all my hearing in Artillery, specifically Towed 155mm Batteries. I love the guns, the bigger the better. Especially rail guns, and Coast Defense Artillery. You'd be surprised how hard it is to collect memorabilia from Corregidor. I applaud your effort to build the rail gun.

Clarence, Thank you, sir!    I have the Lionel PW 3666 cannon boxcar, and a flat mounted artillery made by KUSAN in the late 1950s.  But, never found a large caliber, Naval type, to have in my consist.  It may not be detailed enough for some rivet counters, but I am glad to be giving this a shot.  (no pun intended)….   As I gather more information, come across more archive pics of shore batteries, especially the RR Guns, the knowledge gained is wonderful.   So, thank you, sir!  And now for the details, making all those darn rivets will be something else.  I know they make them on clear transfer for those who build tenders and the like from scratch brass.

Jesse   TCA

My 'Leopold' is a static display.  At 35" long it would be a challenge to move around the track.

Brian,   Came across a pic of your 14in Naval gun as modeled, and not with the housing used when in the European theater WWl.  Have made progress on my 1920 model 14in Naval, more detailing on the upper gun carriage.  Found more pictures, some in color from the WWll era in Fort Mc Arthur.  Still trying to find out whether the "decking" around the gun was of wood, like majority of railcars.  Or, if it was of steel for the stresses from firing of such a large gun, as was the 14in gun you have a model of.  Of course, over time this can all change, as the color of painting the entire gun car did.

Jesse   TCA

              can't wait to see more pictures of your progress on your model...

Anxious to have more progress done on my model!!   I like the way it is coming along, considering my having to "estimate" the scale and what dimensions the actual gun and car were.  Have found some dimensions, but not all, and as stated, still looking into locating more details on the gun car itself.  Still, to have a larger railway gun in my consist will be nice.  This is my first crafting of any car from complete scratch, and learning a lot as I go along.  Really was going for a more RTR gun car when I started.  But, now, find myself making changes as I go to be, hopefully, more close to "scale" and more accurately detailed.  Even considering having the recoil action and the recoil/recuperator cylinders functional.  Also, thinking of the carriage/firing bolster elevating screws drives "somewhat" functional.  Whatever, I am enjoying the effort and know the final product will be ok for my military consist.

Jesse   TCA 

I do have some progress pics, but wish to have more to show and do not want to be too bothersome with pics that do not show a lot of change, even though the effort and build of details take a good bit of my time and effort.  Now thinking I should have use thinner MDF, and not .25in material.  Oh well, I am basically making use of what I have on hand, though I see I am in need of some more plastistrut items, now that I am getting more into correct detail than originally envisioned.  Something I found rather interesting.  When doing a search for more pics, information, details..... found a pic of my model, as shown in start of this topic, on Wikileaks!  Yep, the really rough looking initial start of what I had at that point, same as first pics I show in start of this post...…     COOOOOL...……    LOL!!

Jesse   TCA

Remember, this is a build from what I have on hand, other than the sheets of various thickness styrene purchased.  Suppose this could be considered O gauge, not O scale, for certain!  It is close to scale dimensions, but I determined the scale used, and may be a bit off. But, it is what I am looking for, a home build with parts and material "laying around", though I may have problem knowing when to stop with adding details.  And depending upon what I can make to create certain machinery.   Update pics with a slight painting for better contrasting...….    Still shooting for end of year completion...…  yeah, right.....LOL!!!!

Jesse   TCA   12-68275

                looking GREAT Jesse  !!    very nice !

Thanks for the comment, Brian!  A long way to go, but I am really enjoying doing this.

Jesse

Looking good Jesse! Will this be a working piece? 

Jesse,

Your doing a great job, often people are too intimidated to just try something.

Are you going to keep it in GI green or do one of the other schemes?

Jesse, that is looking great.

I think it looks great so far!  

-Greg

Great looking rail gun. We're all interested in your work.  Keep the thread and pics coming, you're doing a great job. Since it is a naval gun, paint it battleship gray.

I am a little late to the party, but your Railroad Gun looks great, what a super modeling effort.  In a related venue, you might like a little book I came across: "Armored Trains" by Steven J. Zaloga, Osprey Publishing Company, UK 2008 .  It starts with the American Civil War, covers WW1 & 2 and several conflicts between.  Seems mostly about foreign sources but good coverage especially of Russian / Soviet and German trains.  Great pictures of the consists both inside and out.  It is softcover and only cost $17 and is likely available on Amazon. 

Bobby - Have actually thought about that!  It is a brass barrel, with each of the three sections recessed into one another, tightly, for more than 1/2in each, sealed with JB Weld.  It will function mechanically with raise/lower barrel; gun upper carriage elevates/lowers; carriage bolster relocates forward/back to support raised upper carriage; gun barrel can be positioned 1) in stow for travel, 2) angled down for breech loading,   3) elevated for firing.  Trucks can be removed from under car frame, as prototype did, for mounting onto pivot pad platform and gun rail for 360 degree firing coordinates.  Have considered active recoil and recuperator cylinders.  Simply have springs within the brass tube cylinders to return the "loose fit"  gun barrel within the mount to load/fire orientation.  Still thinking about that one.

Ron - I intend to paint the 1920II Rail Gun in "as delivered" color of olive green.  First M1920II railway gun was delivered to Fort MacArthur October 1925.  Second gun was delivered to Fort MacArthur June of 1930.  They could each fire a 1400 lb projectile a distance of 27 miles, protecting the Los Angeles harbor and Naval facilities.  Two identical 1920II rail Guns were delivered to the Panama Canal Zone and could be relocated to either Atlantic or Pacific coasts as needed via rail.  The guns were later painted in a light tan color in the 1940's.  All four guns were decommissioned in 1946 and scrapped within the following year.

Clarence - Thanks for the comments.  As I have stated, doing this build from "on hand" materials and enjoying the challenge of my first scratch build.

Greg - Also, sir, thank you for your comments!

Third Rail - Yes, it is a 1920II model 14in Naval gun, mounted on a Baldwin built car frame and truck assemblies.  The naval gun and upper carriage assembly was built at the Watertown Arsenal, where the gun and railcar carrier assembly was completed.  From Watertown it was transported to Aberdeen Proving Ground for testing and commissioning.  A total of four M1920II railway guns were built for the Army Coastal Defense Artillery, two going to the Panama Canal Zone, two assigned to Fort MacArthur, Los Angeles, California.  First delivery paint scheme was Army olive green, later painted a light tan during the 1941-1945 war time period.  For concealment, the Fort MacArthur guns were kept within false "large farm houses" adjacent to the gun emplacements, moved out to the reinforced concrete platform for 360 degree firing positioning as necessary.  During the WWII periods, the entire gun and carriage was maintained upon the firing platform and concealed with camouflaged netting.  

Jesse   TCA   12-68275

Don - Thank you for the comments, sir.  I am in hopes of performing more detailing soon, plus better fine tuning on the trucks mounting and smooth operation on curves.  In time, a later project, lowering of the truck bolsters and center of gravity.  Right now concentrating on completion of the basic gun car, more detailing as time allows.

Jesse   TCA

Moving forward...….    Today "punched" out rivet detail in styrene sheets to cut and add to gun lower carrier girder where required.  Also "punched" rivet detail as shown in pics for the right side of the rear loading trunk side.  The girder rivets were punched into .020in styrene and the loading trunk side rivets were punched into .010in styrene.  First time I have tried this, found out the styrene tends to curl as rivets are added.  Not surprised considering the thickness of the styrene material.  Naturally, the .020in sheet isn't curled as severe, but I have seen same with welding together .25in carbon steel plate when working construction, even with use of dogs and spaced tacks.  Anyway, will affix the .010in rivet detail with full coverage of adhesive; cut the .020in rivet sheet as required and affix to girder where required.  The girder rivet detail sheet has three rows of double riveting, and two rows of staggered triple riveting as shown in pictures and drawings.  Plan to paint olive green before affixing to girder and loading trunk side.  Then if all looks and goes as planned, repeat for other side of gun railway car.

Jesse   TCA  12-68275

Due to the curling of the styrene with punching rivets, making use of thin copper sheeting to reinforce the back before painting and affixing to the side of loading trunk on the 14in gun.

Jesse   TCA

Have you considered using a pounce wheel to emboss the rivets? Consistent size/depth and the row of impressions is always evenly spaced and straight as needed.

---PCJ

Jesse:  Really looks cool .  As far as consistent spacing is concerned, I spent some years overseeing maintenance of aluminum riveted aircraft some of which were constructed in the 1950's and 1960's (at the time).  I can tell you that spacing was "sort of" even but only  if "Harry the Riveter" had a good day and relationship of location to that stated on the engineering drawing was purely coincidental

Railride, yes, I have.  However, I do not have one and wish to proceed on this project, purposely, "on the cheap".  I am making use 90% or more of materials I have on hand already, minimum of new acquired tools/materials.  With that in mind, I believe a lot, if not most, of people who read the Forum may have same around to work with.  Naturally, it varies from one individual to another, but that is the idea.  Make use of what you have and do best you are able.  Have thoughts of making my own pounce wheel... perhaps a gear/toothed wheel of some sort.  Still looking around in my cans and boxes to see what I may have.

Don, thanks for the compliment.  Yes, I agree.  When working in a Rohm & Haas chemical plant, they had two tank cars used to transport various products/additives within the plant between units.  Both cars were from the '30s or '40s (built dates varied with upgrades) and both were riveted plate.  Also, in older parts of the plant, some pipe racks were of riveted steel beams and columns, really thick webs and flanges.  And with both cases, the rivets were not regularly spaced as people are used to seeing in Hollywood films and old promotional film reels.

After making use of the copper sheet to reinforce the styrene, afterthought method of correction, may consider use of copper sheet for outside loading trunk surface, if it doesn't warp as severely with making rivets.  

Jesse   TCA 

Moving forward, built the Upper Carriage Left side davit, mounted just below the Left side barrel elevation bearing cap.  This was used to lift/lower elevation control wheel operator platform, for placement and removal.  Base mount I made has center pins to insert in davit swivel post, and accompanying post outside base collar.  Have both sides of loading trunk rivet detailing complete and affixed, completed recoil band recoil and recuperator cylinders with barrel recoil sleeve reinforcements.  Adding details to Left side Lower Carriage.  Really am adding more detail than originally envisioned.. but, got the bug, I suppose.  Could find no dimensions on davit, but scaled out and built to 4ft high, 4ft long.  From davits I have used in the past on sites, I believe it is close.Jesse   TCA  12-68275

Really not satisfied with left side davit when finished, plan to remove and do better next time.... I hope!   Always a learning process for first scratch build and first rail gun.

Jesse   TCA

Really awesome 

Very impressive.  I am also amazed you will be able to run it, even on O-72.

Thanks, Erik!   Making the small parts ( 1/16in and under) and gluing together with Gorilla Super Glue has a lot of challenges all it's own.  The aspect of giving a decent effort at scale detailing has become more intriguing.  Only hope I am able, or "lucky" enough, to complete with a good looking and reliability functioning military consist rail gun.  Thank you, for your encouraging comment, sir.

Jesse   TCA   12-68275

Thank you, Bill!   Yes, still have to work on the truck bolsters for smoother operation, and in time plan to see what can be done to lower the center of gravity. See no reason it will not be able to navigate O-72 and super elevated rail.   Plus, looking to find out what the deck and bolsters were covered with, steel or wood... most likely both, dependent upon function.  Again, sir, thank you.

Jesse    TCA

As we move along.....    

Jesse  TCA

A little update as I have been able to find some time to proceed on the 14in rail gun.  So much for being complete by end of 2019!!  LOL!!  But, I have taken to adding more details than originally envisioned.  So long as I can put in at least a couple hours each day on it, may be finished by May...…!!  More I look, more detail I find, or determine from old photos.  I figured as long as I am doing it, just see what is possible with items I have.  With my glasses aided eyesight and arthritic fingers, it can be fun.  Example, the elevating motor and gear box, on rear of right side upper carriage, is one inch long and made of ten separate parts.  Many shaped from brass rod or tube, assembled with files and tweezers and Gorilla super glue.  And scrounging around in my parts boxes!!  Love it!!  Moving forward...…..

Jesse   TCA  12-68275

As of today, 1-13-2020, made good progress and attached first "power cord" to control panel and motor.

Jesse  TCA

Well...  Progress is made but not as quick as intended.  LOL!   I am finding out the more detail I am able to discern from old photos, the more I wish to include.  Though not all pics found are from same period, so most detail is from 1930s, some may be of later design changes.  The routing of conduit is close as I have been able to make out from the photos.  Whatever, the enjoyment of this "scratch scrap" build is well worth it.  But, I am finding the clearances and tolerances involved, down to 1/32in, has surprised me.  With my bi-focals and stiff fingers, the challenge gets better all the time!  So hope you like the progress and added detail, however long it takes me.  Thanks for looking.

Jesse   TCA

Tremendous work, Jesse.

Rider,   Thank you, sir!  Having fun and learning a lot along the way.  Don't get to work on it every day.  But, hey, still quicker than what it took to build the prototype!!  LOL!  I am finding what I can do with "odd materiel" laying around and building from scratch a railroad car not common as some others.  Loving it!

Thanks for the comments.....

Jesse   TCA   12-68275

Here it is April and living in a "New World" as we gaze out upon the events around us.  Spring has arrived and without the usual ability to have some hired hand to assist, staying busy and working on Winter/Spring duties.  So, not on the 14in Gun build as preferred, but find some pics of progress as such.  My many thanks to comments and especially to Jim Caldwell for the excellent material he sent me.  Enjoy, and moving forward...…   One small detail at a time......

Jesse  TCA   12-68275  

OK....  In the past month have found time to work on details/equipment for the front gun carriage deck.  Still need some painting, but the contrast helps bring out detail in the pics.  Shown, left to right; Gun carriage raising motor, air compressor, gun barrel support (in stowed travel position and secured), barbette orientation rotation motoring and gearing.  I see a need for making more turnbuckles for military loads as these are my last two. Yep, more detailing and painting ahead!  Thanks for following and enjoy!  Moving forward...…...

Jesse   TCA  12-68275

Texastrain:  I have followed your thread since Oct 19 when you began.  I continue to be amazed at the level of detail you have modeled and the quality of the results.  Super work.  When you mentioned turnbuckles, I wondered if the model ship folks might have some commercial castings for such things.  I know they have them for pulleys and blocks because the ship modelers use lots of them for the rigging on ships.  Just an idea.

Although I live in Waco most of the year, we live for several months on Tybee Island in Georgia.  Tybee sits at the mouth of the Savannah River which was always a crucial gateway to the United States as it is easily navigable by ocean going ships all the way up to the Port of Savannah.  One of the interesting things on Tybee and its surrounds are the remains of three key forts that at various eras in history were erected to protect the Savannah River from incursion.  One is a Revolutionary war era fort near what is currently the  port , another is Fort Pulaski a civil war era fort just downstream of the entrance and the third is Fort Screven (believe it or not, General George Marshall was one of its Commanders in his early career).  The first two were but historical artifacts by the 20th century but Fort Screven which sits on Tybee at the mouth of the Savannah River was a key part of  Coast Artillery Corps Branch of the US Army.   In 1899-1900 Screven was equipped with what the US Government said were the "largest cannon in the world".  There were four 8" rifled cannon with a range of 10 miles in its main batteries.   These main batteries rose up on a hydraulic platform to fire then lowered behind the thick walls of the fort for the crew to reload under the protection of the walls.  The shells were raised from the armory via jib cranes due to their immense weight as each weighed 709 lbs.  Each gun was manned by 4 officers and 157 men.   Although never fired from the fort at an enemy, these guns were in the fort up until about 1918 when they were removed to be used at the front as RR guns in WW1.  Given the emergence of the airplane making coastal forts somewhat obsolete they were never reinstalled. 

I do have a book with some old pictures of these guns and their installation, which I could copy and send to you if it would help at all in your modeling.  Just let me know if you want them and how to reach you.

Very Respectfully

Don McErlean

Don,     Thank you, sir, for your comments.  Yes, they do make cast brass turnbuckles for ship modeling.  However, as I have stated, I like to construct with materials/"stuff" I have on hand.  I did make some operating turnbuckles years ago, but without a reverse thread on one end...….well...….  Really not that difficult when you can find the smallest tap and die possible (forget what size now).

We could have crossed paths, or close, in the past.  I was born and raised in Midland, went high school and started work on the docks /construction/management in Houston.  Starting 2009, until 2011, I managed construction on Robins AFB located 20 mile South of Macon.  My wife and I, when she would visit for a couple of weeks, as she was retired, made many trips to Savannah and Tybee Island.  For New Year 2011 we had a hotel room on Tybee and joined the locals for the celebration on the long pier and local establishments.  Too bad the fair and carnival set up near was not functional, only for making of a movie by Hanna Montana.  But, all restaurants were lower cost, drinks and all amenities lower in cost (due to the "off" season) and fireworks on the beach were great!  Had a wonderful time, then, and every time we went there.  And, also had great stays and enjoyment when we would stay for the weekend in Savannah.  Yes, saw the local fortifications, but never took time to explore fully.  Will just have to go back!  

Thank you for your offer, sir.  I have a book on the military history of Fort MacArthur, where the 14in gun I am modeling was located, in set of two, for coastal defense.  There were another pair sent to Panama for the defense of the canal, and they were easily transported from East to West coasts, and back again, as needed by the canal rail line trackage.  Another forum member, Jim Caldwell sent me an order catalog for RR Gun drawings and pics.  However, the firm you ordered from, Coker Craft, is now defunct as far as I have been able to find out.  So, I am going off pictures I find online and in the one book I have, plus the one sent by Jim.

Thank you, again sir, for your comments.  And, also for all likes and comment from others, thank you, all.

Moving forward...…... 

Jesse   TCA  12-68275

Very nice work Jessie, I think I saw one at the Aberdeen MD proving ground, a long time ago.

Jesse, this has been a fun thread to follow. Great work and please keep posting updates. 

Jessie:  Great story...my involvement with Robbins is quite old, I used to visit there periodically when I was on Active Duty (I was an engineer) for the Air Force in the early 1970's.  As you may know, it is still a very important base for the AF. 

Glad you liked Tybee.  We are there most of Jun, Jul, and part of August (I still teach so need to come back to Tx to prepare for the fall semester so am back in Waco by mid Aug).  The long pier is still there, took a few hits in 2014 from Hurricane Matthew, was closed for awhile (no structural damage it turned out, but it had to be inspected prior to opening again for the public and that took quite a wait, entertainment piers were not a big priority).  We are building a new extensive Marine Education Center and Museum, if you come back after this Summer it is supposed to be open. 

You are welcome about the offer of pictures.  I realized I might just try to copy some of the most relevant and post them here for your review.  I might try that, I am not too sophisticated when it comes to this digital stuff but it might work.

Best of luck with your turnbuckles, your skill in modeling is very apparent.  How you would "see" something so small is a wonder to me, I have trouble recognizing my car!! 

Best wishes, stay healthy

Don McErlean

Thank you all for your interest and comments.

Don....  Well, seems it is a smaller world than first reckoned.  Yes, some places and events are common and, as a fact, last I was through Waco was Feb. 25 this year.  I was on my way back to Oklahoma from visiting my mother in Conroe at a rest facility.  But, due to the COVID restrictions here and in Harris County, I was not able to attend services when she passed on March 25th.  Such it is concerning the times we find ourselves in.

John....  Thank you for our comments.  yes, I wish to make a trip NE, someday, and Aberdeen will definitely be on my list.

Rider... Glad you enjoy my post, and sense the fun I have in this endeavor.  Yes, it will be an active post until completion and first active trials are performed to acceptance.  The challenges and satisfaction go hand-in-hand, as Adriatic, Trainman2001, and others can attest.   Thank you, sir.

Moving forward...….

Jesse   TCA  12-68275

Have built generator for 14in Gun that rode in front on the 16 wheel set of trucks, and used for gun power in all applications.  Have minor detail to complete and purchase another rattle can of Krylon to add color in several places.  Moving forward...….

Jesse   TCA  12-68275