Some store owners may be reluctant to sell an item for less than they paid for it. Everyone is different my thinking is it’s better at some point to cut your losses
Oh and I know that store in Nazareth.
In Dec at the OKC train show I bought an essentially new red Pennsy F3 from 1979 for ninety dollars and an early 70’s Milwaukee road F3 A with only flaking of the decal for 45 dollars. I wasn’t looking for either but could not turn down the price.
Store owners don't pay MSRP. However, they are in business to make money. Charlie
Again, interesting thread. One additional item on rolling stock that comes to my mind as I look at NOS or similar involves shipping cost. I may get zapped for this image but how do you justify this difference? I am equal distant between these two.
Of course I will be more prone to consider the shipping cost that is half of the other one. Both of these are "old" and not sure what the original was. However we can all see these are attractive compared to current production. they both have decent detail and metal sprung trucks.
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I struggle to understand the fixation on prices here.
Something is worth what a person is willing to pay. For the seller it is about how long they are willing to hold something to get their price.
Maybe a sellers price isn’t what you think it is worth, ok then there is no sale with you, maybe someone else will buy at the price the seller wants.
Seems like a lot of people focused on what price someone else should sell their goods for.
Rich, Your point is on the money (to make a pun
?) with the focus of the thread, how do you come to the benchmark you are willing to pay for a "normal" item? What logic do you use other than that occasional event where we have all been..... this rings my bell or will complete my collection of x and i must have it even if it costs $xxxxx.
I can’t speak for everyone but for me my wants far exceeds my wallet.
cpowell posted:Store owners don't pay MSRP. However, they are in business to make money. Charlie
They don't pay MSRP, BUT they do pay their bills from the mfgs. & after that that the longer it sits on the shelf - the more they lose in cash flow, & the resulting interest they could have gained by selling & getting the stuff off their shelves.
scale rail posted:There is a toy/train store I would buy building materials from when we lived on the mainland. They had shelf after shelf of old MTH, Lionel and many other brands of engines and cars. Most were years old and had outdated sound system and running equipment. They even had some S gauge cars that were made by companies that had been out of business for years. Everything to this day is full retail price. I don't get it. Don
What's not to get? It's a brand new item, isn't it? Assuming apples-to-apples features, the only value difference is lack of warranty. The OP thinks it's all worth 50%?
Ironically, I think this is one factor making folks less likely to want to be in this hobby. It's a very specific antiquated type of toy. At the incredibly high prices for scale locomotives and rolling stock today, it takes a special mentality to want to put that kind of money into something that even the true hobby aficionados don't value. Curious what the basis is for these opinions....
Mallard4468 posted:
Until relatively recently, I was unaware of the extent to which electronic components will deteriorate over time, even if they aren't used or abused. With that in mind, my thought process when buying NOS non-conventional engines is "if I have to put $200+ of repairs into it, will I still be happy with the deal?".
From some research I've done and personal experience the best bets for older command control locomotives are Lionel TMCC made in USA or Korea and MTH PS2 3V made in Korea. Those items have virtually no complaints about failure out of the box.
PJB posted:scale rail posted:There is a toy/train store I would buy building materials from when we lived on the mainland. They had shelf after shelf of old MTH, Lionel and many other brands of engines and cars. Most were years old and had outdated sound system and running equipment. They even had some S gauge cars that were made by companies that had been out of business for years. Everything to this day is full retail price. I don't get it. Don
What's not to get? It's a brand new item, isn't it? Assuming apples-to-apples features, the only value difference is lack of warranty. The OP thinks it's all worth 50%?
I should've been more clear. NOS rolling stock bears little risk. Agree with all the posts related to supply and demand. No concerns here and I'd suggest people pay what it's worth to them. If one is hard to find and completes a collection, you might pay over MSRP. I think we're all on the same page.
My main concern/question was about electronic-based locomotives. Newer versions generally have sound and some capability upgrades. Also, as several have mentioned, the new one comes with a warranty; NOS likely does not. Lastly, and this appears to be in contention, electronics might degrade over time or, worst case, not have replacement parts available. Remember the ERR uproar?
For those reasons, I believe locomotives' value declines over time much like style or fad-based products or even smartphones. I don't argue with retailers' attempts to try to sell NOS at original MSRP. I'm merely stating that I'm not willing to pay it just as I won't pay the 2010 price for an IPhone 5 today.
Let's try these more specific cases.
- Compare a NOS Polar Express junior Berk w/TMCC 1.0, one with LC, and a new one with LC+2. In this case, there's room for a seller to hold close to MSRP on the TMCC 1.0 and LC versions since those were probably around $300 - $350 and the LC+2 looks to have an MSRP of $500. But, if dealers discount new LC+2 to a street price of, say, $400, that has to have an impact on NOS.
- A Rail King Berk from 2004 with PS2 and an Imperial Rail King Berk from 2017 with PS3. MSRP has only gone up about 10%. In this instance, I think the NOS has been severely devalued by perhaps 50%.
For those like @rich883, if you "struggle to understand the fixation on prices here", then why take the time to ring in? I struggle to understand why people comment on others' threads when they're not interested in the subject. For example, I struggle to understand the concerns about paint or rivet-count accuracy, so I don't comment because it merely comes across as raining on their parades. The whole point of the forum, I think, is that people can and should discuss what's of interest to them. To each his own, no?
Ok so why someone will pay full MSRP, OR MSRP+, is ultimately their personal choice.
A brick and mortar store that tries to maintain their inventory at full MSRP, No matter how outdated that inventory is....is a retail business that at some point will operate at a loss, (unless he's buying at pennies on the dollar NIB and selling full retail as NIB because he has little invested and profits over the LONG hall). Not bad if one has deep pockets and can outwait the fickel market. But unwillingness to negotiate a price seems foolhardy if you have little invested and a willing buyer with a reasonable offer.
Of course that is a possible answer, Little investment, so not too concerned about WHEN something sells. Maybe something else sells and pays for whatever is left to sell. (Already recouped his investment...everything left is pure profit).
Don't know just thinking out loud.
justakid posted:Ok so why someone will pay full MSRP, OR MSRP+, is ultimately their personal choice.
A brick and mortar store that tries to maintain their inventory at full MSRP, No matter how outdated that inventory is....is a retail business that at some point will operate at a loss, (unless he's buying at pennies on the dollar NIB and selling full retail as NIB because he has little invested and profits over the LONG hall). Not bad if one has deep pockets and can outwait the fickel market. But unwillingness to negotiate a price seems foolhardy if you have little invested and a willing buyer with a reasonable offer.
Of course that is a possible answer, Little investment, so not too concerned about WHEN something sells. Maybe something else sells and pays for whatever is left to sell. (Already recouped his investment...everything left is pure profit).
Don't know just thinking out loud.
The think the premise here is assumes an incorrect fact. Retailers do not get to purchase product from the manufacturer at pennies on the dollar.
I deal with 30 plus small business owners on a monthly basis. I own buildings and they rent from me. I am fairly certain they all think when they pay me the average $0.20 per square foot per month rent it all goes into my entertainment account. After, taxes, insurance, principal, interest & repairs they are correct.
I watch some of them struggle because they refuse to drop the price of their inventory when it is definitely dated. It is hard to make that leap when it was your hard earned dollars that bought it in the first place. Over time a majority of them go out of business. It is sad but at least they had the chance to live the dream.
raising4daughters posted:PJB posted:scale rail posted:There is a toy/train store I would buy building materials from when we lived on the mainland. They had shelf after shelf of old MTH, Lionel and many other brands of engines and cars. Most were years old and had outdated sound system and running equipment. They even had some S gauge cars that were made by companies that had been out of business for years. Everything to this day is full retail price. I don't get it. Don
What's not to get? It's a brand new item, isn't it? Assuming apples-to-apples features, the only value difference is lack of warranty. The OP thinks it's all worth 50%?
I should've been more clear. NOS rolling stock bears little risk. Agree with all the posts related to supply and demand. No concerns here and I'd suggest people pay what it's worth to them. If one is hard to find and completes a collection, you might pay over MSRP. I think we're all on the same page.
My main concern/question was about electronic-based locomotives. Newer versions generally have sound and some capability upgrades. Also, as several have mentioned, the new one comes with a warranty; NOS likely does not. Lastly, and this appears to be in contention, electronics might degrade over time or, worst case, not have replacement parts available. Remember the ERR uproar?
For those reasons, I believe locomotives' value declines over time much like style or fad-based products or even smartphones. I don't argue with retailers' attempts to try to sell NOS at original MSRP. I'm merely stating that I'm not willing to pay it just as I won't pay the 2010 price for an IPhone 5 today.
Let's try these more specific cases.
- Compare a NOS Polar Express junior Berk w/TMCC 1.0, one with LC, and a new one with LC+2. In this case, there's room for a seller to hold close to MSRP on the TMCC 1.0 and LC versions since those were probably around $300 - $350 and the LC+2 looks to have an MSRP of $500. But, if dealers discount new LC+2 to a street price of, say, $400, that has to have an impact on NOS.
- A Rail King Berk from 2004 with PS2 and an Imperial Rail King Berk from 2017 with PS3. MSRP has only gone up about 10%. In this instance, I think the NOS has been severely devalued by perhaps 50%.
For those like @rich883, if you "struggle to understand the fixation on prices here", then why take the time to ring in? I struggle to understand why people comment on others' threads when they're not interested in the subject. For example, I struggle to understand the concerns about paint or rivet-count accuracy, so I don't comment because it merely comes across as raining on their parades. The whole point of the forum, I think, is that people can and should discuss what's of interest to them. To each his own, no?
Thanks for elaborating.
Your post gave me pause, as I never equated a toy train to an iPhone. To me, they are very different. An iPhone's entire purpose is use, as tool. Toy trains on the other hand are not tools. Their entire purpose is personal enjoyment, much like other things I collect, like comic books, Cuban cigars, and bourbon. In all cases (other than toy trains), folks covet the items, which leads to hobbyists appreciating vintage versions and happily paying higher prices to secure the items. Even cell phones now see vintage examples appreciating in value.
Based on all this, I couldn't get my mind around why folks in this hobby routinely bash the manufacturers, the products, and the prices. Or why prices plummet in value as soon as the items aren't absoutely fresh to the market. Even video games and vintage cell phones are now collectibles, with old video game cartridges routinely selling for thousands of dollars - even though the graphics and functionality are laughable by today's standards.
It's really unfortunate that maybe toy train hobbyists see these amazing items as "last year's" iPhones. Unfortunate for the hobby. Per my initial post, what hope does a hobby have when the entry price (for scale products) is incredibly high and even the staunchest hobbyists dont think the products have much value.
Thanks for your post - it's well taken.
NOS from the postwar era is by and large driven by what collectors are willing to pay - the newer stuff adds a twist due to the fragility of electronics and whether is it being purchased to run or be stored.
PJB posted:raising4daughters posted:PJB posted:scale rail posted:There is a toy/train store I would buy building materials from when we lived on the mainland. They had shelf after shelf of old MTH, Lionel and many other brands of engines and cars. Most were years old and had outdated sound system and running equipment. They even had some S gauge cars that were made by companies that had been out of business for years. Everything to this day is full retail price. I don't get it. Don
What's not to get? It's a brand new item, isn't it? Assuming apples-to-apples features, the only value difference is lack of warranty. The OP thinks it's all worth 50%?
I should've been more clear. NOS rolling stock bears little risk. Agree with all the posts related to supply and demand. No concerns here and I'd suggest people pay what it's worth to them. If one is hard to find and completes a collection, you might pay over MSRP. I think we're all on the same page.
My main concern/question was about electronic-based locomotives. Newer versions generally have sound and some capability upgrades. Also, as several have mentioned, the new one comes with a warranty; NOS likely does not. Lastly, and this appears to be in contention, electronics might degrade over time or, worst case, not have replacement parts available. Remember the ERR uproar?
For those reasons, I believe locomotives' value declines over time much like style or fad-based products or even smartphones. I don't argue with retailers' attempts to try to sell NOS at original MSRP. I'm merely stating that I'm not willing to pay it just as I won't pay the 2010 price for an IPhone 5 today.
Let's try these more specific cases.
- Compare a NOS Polar Express junior Berk w/TMCC 1.0, one with LC, and a new one with LC+2. In this case, there's room for a seller to hold close to MSRP on the TMCC 1.0 and LC versions since those were probably around $300 - $350 and the LC+2 looks to have an MSRP of $500. But, if dealers discount new LC+2 to a street price of, say, $400, that has to have an impact on NOS.
- A Rail King Berk from 2004 with PS2 and an Imperial Rail King Berk from 2017 with PS3. MSRP has only gone up about 10%. In this instance, I think the NOS has been severely devalued by perhaps 50%.
For those like @rich883, if you "struggle to understand the fixation on prices here", then why take the time to ring in? I struggle to understand why people comment on others' threads when they're not interested in the subject. For example, I struggle to understand the concerns about paint or rivet-count accuracy, so I don't comment because it merely comes across as raining on their parades. The whole point of the forum, I think, is that people can and should discuss what's of interest to them. To each his own, no?
Thanks for elaborating.
Your post gave me pause, as I never equated a toy train to an iPhone. To me, they are very different. An iPhone's entire purpose is use, as tool. Toy trains on the other hand are not tools. Their entire purpose is personal enjoyment, much like other things I collect, like comic books, Cuban cigars, and bourbon. In all cases (other than toy trains), folks covet the items, which leads to hobbyists appreciating vintage versions and happily paying higher prices to secure the items. Even cell phones now see vintage examples appreciating in value.
Based on all this, I couldn't get my mind around why folks in this hobby routinely bash the manufacturers, the products, and the prices. Or why prices plummet in value as soon as the items aren't absoutely fresh to the market. Even video games and vintage cell phones are now collectibles, with old video game cartridges routinely selling for thousands of dollars - even though the graphics and functionality are laughable by today's standards.
It's really unfortunate that maybe toy train hobbyists see these amazing items as "last year's" iPhones. Unfortunate for the hobby. Per my initial post, what hope does a hobby have when the entry price (for scale products) is incredibly high and even the staunchest hobbyists dont think the products have much value.
Thanks for your post - it's well taken.
I agree with you about hobbies being for enjoyment vis-a-vis a smartphone. The iPhone analogy dawned on me as I was thinking about the various threads on TMCC-Legacy-LC-LC+-LC+2. I get plenty of enjoyment out of my TMCC 1.0 engines, but as new technologies coming on the market now 15-20 years later, I feel like I want some of the new goodies much like some other new gadgets I don't really need but think are cool.
I think once the industry moved from conventional to electronic wizardry, some of this was inevitable and, my hunch, encouraged by the manufacturers.
Heck, for conventional operators, the postwar era items may even be better than modern conventional. I just sold off my last remaining modern conventional but retained everything postwar. But, in this electronic command control era, new technologies are replacing recent technologies in our toy trains.
Most of my O scale collection was acquired via Ebay. The majority of my freight cars could be considered new old stock. From day one I had set my limits to what I was willing to pay for anything I was interested in. I did my research too. If one came up at a high starting or "buy it now" price one most always came up later on at a more reasonable price. Occasionally a low price came with ultra high shipping charge. When it came to purchasing locomotives I have always preferred MTH Premier and only those with Proto Sounds 2.0 or higher. Often I've found that some earlier Proto 1.0 engines were going for MSRP even if they were 10 plus years old whether new in the box or not. I recently purchased an MTH Premier NYC Hudson lettered for the Big Four. Never run, mint condition and only the tender deck plate was loose. Was able to get the engine for $650.00 with shipping included. So, regardless of what a seller is asking the buyer should always make his or her own rules and limits. Educating ones self on the pros and cons of buying trains is important. Most of the comments on this thread make good sense and can be of great help to the new person in the hobby.
Ran into some related train and non-train events related to this thread in the past week or two.
I've been eyeing a Rail King NKP Berk and saw a NOS up from 2004 with PS up for auction at full 2004 retail. New ones with PS3 and warranty only 5% higher MSRP. So, I offered the seller 62.5% of his ask and was rebuffed with "sorry." I bought a new one with PS3 and warranty from Mr. Muffins for only $135 more than I offered for the 15 y/o piece.
At the same time, there's a set of Williams O27 NKP Alco FAs up for auction for $400. Original MSRP was $269. These are very rare, and I'm tempted, but then I'd be in for over $600 to convert to ERR components, so I'm passing. But, I was tempted.
Went to Dicks to pick up a pair of running shoes and found a pair of last year's model (same shoes, basically last year's color) for 20% off.
A previous poster mentioned that it takes a lot of money to run a brick-and-mortar LHS. Same can be said about any retailer, including a retailer of stocks (brokerage). Warren Buffet said the other day that a stock doesn't care what price you bought it at. I think the same can be said about engines (not so much rolling stock) in this electronic era. As new features come out like LC+2 and PS3, prior unsold versions have to be worth less.
raising4daughters posted:My personal feeling is that the new old stock is worth about half.
BINGO. You're buying an item w/o a warranty that may, or may not run.
On the dealer side, there are fixed costs for every month an item is inventoried. The longer the item inventoried, the less money is actually made on that item. Hold it too long, and they're upside down on the item. Macy's has an algorithm that mandates a sale price w/ a trigger date. Better to break-even than to lose money on an item.
If someone has 5+ yr NOS, they've already lost their shirt.
