Several yrs ago my friend had a toy store, he sold a lot of collectible toys, die cast trucks, car and trains. I asked him when does he know what price to sell the collectibles. He said, don't anticipate making big bucks, sell it when you can make a buck on it, or you'll end up eating it.
Gilly@N&W posted:Macy's has an algorithm that mandates a sale price w/ a trigger date. Better to break-even than to lose money on an item.
If someone has 5+ yr NOS, they've already lost their shirt.
I think you're right though rare items like that Williams set of Alcos will always provide exceptions. In the base of the RK Berk though, the new one looks the same and is better equipped and warranted. No comparison.
I think recent history that saw the soaring in value of Postwar items is still in a lot of people's minds. Not only did they retain value, they increased. They were like beanie baby, royal dalton, and hummel figures.
But, now, in the tech era, engines are becoming more like 3-rail mobile computers and have more in common with smartphones and tech products, maybe even faddish clothing as in your Macy's example. Would anyone buy a 15 year-old smartphone or computer today for 2004 MSRP when a new one with warranty, more power, memory, speed might be the same price or less?
I just sold a pair of GPs (one power, one dummy) with a pullmor motor and TMCC 1.0 from the late 90s or early 2000s for $135. Not a single offer from the forum and only one at auction. Unpopular road name hurt, but I think this shows that even gently-used products with outdated electronics are worth as little as 25% of original MSRP.
I have not sold any thing since a T&P consist in the very early days of the Forum. If one is looking at unloading a collection today of NOS, or high quality used stuff, it seems to me that packing and shipping of locomotives has now become an economic deterrent to selling unless one can find a buyer who can pick it up at your place himself. I recently gave away and shipped four featherweight panel meters and the cost to ship UPS sans insurance and packing was $24 and change.
I priced shipping a N&W big-shouldered "Water Buffalo" mountain type steamer with a now fleeting thought of having GRJ upgrade it with TMCC . I priced the basic weight and dimension cost of UPS, USPS or Fed EX: plus insurance and using a $10 Overstock Inc, outer carton and $5 packing materials, I soon realized that shipping + return cost could reach over $100 just to get it to GRJ for upgrade and back. I favor the engine as a keeper so it sits on the layout in conventional mode and has never been operated, but I doubt I could get $200 for it($100 estimated net).
I am of divided heart about this issue.
I benefit from the phenomenon because I purposefully wait until the perceived value tanks before I buy--I can't afford the hobby any other way.
But the corollary is that I *prefer* the outdated electronics--in fact, I prefer NO electronics. So I am satisfied with the older equipment.
Lots of good comments here that are pertinete to our hobby and the changing nature of it. I had a retail hobby shop back in the mid 1980s and got into trains in 1988 or so. Knew virtually nothing about the train business and then current state of the hobby. Bought a lot of stuff from distributors and individuals to 'stock the store' but I mostly bought what I liked!
Looking back now, I see that I came into this almost at the peak frenzy of the 'collecting' crowd buying everything that Lionel made and then what the new MTH produced convinced that it was all rising in value. Anyone remember the 'extra' Santa Fe B unit in the Lionel 'Stocking Stuffer' that went with the 1990 Santa Fe F3 ABA set? Richard Kughn said "He didn't get one either". These were fetching as much as $500 shortly after release. Many such items went nuts with the collectors.
Look at most trains shows of today. You will see vast tables full of modern rolling stock that has been carried around for 20-30 years now still in their boxes and sitting unsold. At least most postwar trains were actually played with and enjoyed by little boys and girls and Dads and Moms back in the day. Not so with post 1970s trains for the most part. Yet, dealers will load and unload these boxes of stuff to train shows for years and the trains will never see the light of day!
The value of motive power as posted by the OP is a greatly different issue as stated so eloquently by many posts above but my astonishment is with the rolling stock and many accessories out there that are essentially useless.... :-)
Dewey Trogdon posted:I priced shipping a N&W big-shouldered "Water Buffalo" mountain type steamer ...but I doubt I could get $200 for it.
That's a 3rd Rail Brass model of the K3. Even not-running it's easily worth $350 plus shipping .
Not to mention the preponderance of new product being pumped into the marketplace all the time by the manufacturers. Fortunately, there is quite a bit of new scale oriented equipment coming out for that segment of the hobby but how many more 'traditional' sized boxcars, tank cars, gondolas and the like can we take? It seems that our hobby is beginning to shrink in numbers and many of us who are still active have almost everything we 'need', so who is buying all this new product from the big four and others?
c.sam posted:Lots of good comments here that are pertinete to our hobby and the changing nature of it. I had a retail hobby shop back in the mid 1980s and got into trains in 1988 or so. Knew virtually nothing about the train business and then current state of the hobby. Bought a lot of stuff from distributors and individuals to 'stock the store' but I mostly bought what I liked!
Looking back now, I see that I came into this almost at the peak frenzy of the 'collecting' crowd buying everything that Lionel made and then what the new MTH produced convinced that it was all rising in value. Anyone remember the 'extra' Santa Fe B unit in the Lionel 'Stocking Stuffer' that went with the 1990 Santa Fe F3 ABA set? Richard Kughn said "He didn't get one either". These were fetching as much as $500 shortly after release. Many such items went nuts with the collectors.
Look at most trains shows of today. You will see vast tables full of modern rolling stock that has been carried around for 20-30 years now still in their boxes and sitting unsold. At least most postwar trains were actually played with and enjoyed by little boys and girls and Dads and Moms back in the day. Not so with post 1970s trains for the most part. Yet, dealers will load and unload these boxes of stuff to train shows for years and the trains will never see the light of day!
The value of motive power as posted by the OP is a greatly different issue as stated so eloquently by many posts above but my astonishment is with the rolling stock and many accessories out there that are essentially useless.... :-)
Back in the late 80's when Williams came out w/their Challenger, if you pre ordered one it cost approx. $1k. If you didn't get one, a month later they were selling for $1.8k - $2k. Now you can purchase a NOS Wm's Challenger for $500.
The longevity of many is showing clearly in this tread, which creates a very skewed view of the marketplace. Akin to those who purchased an LP in 1970, then an 8 track, then a cassette, then a CD, and down have digital download all of the same original recording.
In terms of trains, many adults with younger kids coming into the hobby don't recall the late 1980's -- because they were not born yet, nor does the fact that MTH released X engine in PS1, then PS2, then PS2 again, and now in PS3 mean anything to them.
On rolling stock paying original 2000 MSRP is akin to a 50% discount off the current catalog from Lionel or MTH, whose prices have risen greatly in the past couple of years. Seeking to pay 50% off the 2000 price on rolling stock, which might have been reissued but is the same molding, trucks, paint, etc., is solely the buyer looking for a bargain without any justification based upon product quality, warranty, etc. It is wishful thinking or pure supply and demand.
I suggest spending a lot more time looking at prices realized at auctions, train shows, and speaking with buyers and sellers, than asking generalized questions here. The members of this forum can all voice their views on pricing, however the market data may well show a very different reality -- one that takes into account the much larger scale of of hobby than is seen here. Lionel and MTH aren't getting by on the couple of dozen "new catalog released" thread relies that say "maybe I'll buy one engine this year," the scope of the marketplace is not the scope of the OGR forum.
I've thought the market seems saturated and that's why the prices are down on used so much. As the boomers continue to retire and downsize, the 100 engine collections are all going on the market.
I have never paid more than 1/3 MSRP on 1990s Lionel engines, but I bought them 10 - 15 years later. And these are items that have never been reissued.
From my visits to recent train shows it seems as though prices of P/W, MPC , early 90's and dated NOS conventional equipment have dropped substantially. As the market trends have shifted towards remote and complex electronic control operation, this has had a dramatic effect on the pricing of older equipment. Then add in all the reissues over the years and there are bargains galore. Its a great time for those entering the model rain hobby today
I agree Dennis and several others. I had a couple of boxes of my fathers trains in storage for many years. After resurrecting his pre/post railroad this year, I was astonished by the prices of the NEW trains.
Prices of the NOS locomotives and post war stock has allowed me to try out some of the more recent products and options, with our breaking the bank. Throw in an occasional sound upgrade or boxcar with sound, and I'm a happy man!
My most recent buy was a beautiful O Scale TMCC steamer with lots of goodies at less than half it's original cost. With a little patience, and "right place at the right time" luck, those new to the market have a price they can afford. Good for everyone!
Lion
I'll buy freight cars new, as at less than $100 I'm fine forking over the money. I have specific taste in what freight cars I want so when something comes out in the latest catalog that catches my eye I'll order it.
Now as others have said going for NOS locomotives has been the way to go. There is really no other way I could have afforded to buy the 3 scale steam locomotives I own if I bought them brand new when they first were released. If one is going that route they can save a bunch of money and get exactly what they wany by buying NOS. I'm not knocking anyone who orders/buys stuff from a catalog and pays close to MSRP. We would all do that, if we could afford it.
While I am downsizing, I have sold over 20 of my premier engines. While I only ask and get 50% of my purchase price, I think it is a good deal. I had a great time getting 37 trains running simultaneously (more than 50 engines) and now I am trying to make the rebuilt layout a little more grandchildren friendly (only two trains per track instead of 4/5).
SURFLINER posted:Big Consideration to be taken into account when purchasing NOS. Mfgs. have put limits on how long after production they warranty their products. So, unless you cut a "warranty agreement with the seller" - you got squat if something goes wrong. BBW!
From the Lionel Warranty statement on their website...
"Products that are more than 3 years old, from date of manufacture, are not applicable for warranty coverage, even if they have never been sold prior to this date. (Under no circumstance shall any components or labor be provided free of charge.)"
winrose46 posted:While I am downsizing, I have sold over 20 of my premier engines. While I only ask and get 50% of my purchase price, I think it is a good deal. I had a great time getting 37 trains running simultaneously (more than 50 engines) and now I am trying to make the rebuilt layout a little more grandchildren friendly (only two trains per track instead of 4/5).
I feel that your asking prices for the engines you sold were more than fair plus you have gotten rid of what you needed to and the money you received can be put towards something else. When I see sellers asking almost full price for an engine that is 10 plus years old, regardless of whether or not it is new in the box and never run, it just isn't realistic in my opinion especially since the engine is no longer under warranty. Also, the cost of upgrading an MTH Proto 1.0 engine isn't cheap and if you are unable to do the conversion yourself then the price goes up.
I like walking into a hobby shop and seeing a decent selection of NOS rolling stock and accessories. I have been known to pay more than the original MSRP for a find in shops. Locomotives are another matter. If it isn't fully functional, has all the latest features and is no longer under warranty then it will need to be marked down for me to buy.
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