Problem Solved / Red & Green LEDs don't stay lit on Ross double crossover

Only thing I find interesting in your post is you say after you release toggle switch the led's stop working.

 

are you by any chance using or by accident bought a momentary toggle switch 

 

as that sounds like what the problem is from what you described.

 

If that's not the case then sorry have no idea but am sure others will help you.

 

$ooLine

SOOLine,

It has to be momentary; otherwise the motors would fry.

I believe the switch controller button has to be included for the LEDs to work.  I would then doublecheck the connections.  If there isn't power to the switch button, but still to the switch, the switch will throw, but the LEDs won't stay lit.  I recently had all my LEDs go out and quickly determined that the power feed connection to the switch controller had come loose.  When I tightened it up, all is good again. 

William,

Thanks for your reply. We had tried a controller bridged to the toggle and a controller instead of the toggle with no change in the result. By power to the switch button, you mean the common, right? The motor is connected to 16 - 18 Volts. The R & L connect to the button  R & L and non-derail if you have it (in this case not). The center of the button connects to common.  This configuration works for a single switch; but not when you bridge the leads from four switches.

My bad, it was actually the common to the switch machine that was disconnected.  When I got it back in contact,  all was good. 

Well, I just got done replacing one of the hated DZ-1008 relay on my double crossover and the LEDs won't come on on one of the switch machines.  I have no idea why. My best guess is the relay isn't transferring the common to the switch machine.  I fried the relay when my LEDs went out and I didn't notice the switch turned the wrong way.  I'm going to live with it for now,  Hopefully you can stay away from the relay.  It is a nightmare.  The absolute bane of my O Gauge existence.

The crossover switches with the relay I just installed also aren't throwing as reliably as they did before.  I should mention that in my experience a fair share of these

 relays don't work out of the box.  They can be nothing but pure aggravation.

After some reflection, I'm pretty sure I know what I did to my relay.  I mislabeled the leads from the switch machine to the DZ 1008.  This caused some confusion, which led me to make an unneccessary connection which led to an immediate short when I turned on power to the layout.  I fixed my reversed connections to the DZ 1008 and the switch works ok, but not the LED at the one switch machine.  I believe I fried the common feed in the relay to the switch machine.  If you did something similar, this may be your problem.  These relays don't take kindly to shorts.   I'm going to get two more and fix it.  I like everything to work as designed and I'm holding one in reserve.  Good Luck with yours.  Sometimes you've just got to fess up.

Pennsy5
My bad was thinking of tortoise machines.
$ooLine

Pennsyfan My bad I was thinking of tortoise machines sorry. $ooLine

SooLine,

Not to worry, thanks for your interest.

 

My buddy just called, he scrapped the Z-stuff button and is using the toggle. He bridged a test lamp from the common of the toggle to each control lead and now he has lights that stay on indicting the switch position at the control board. The correct LEDs stay lit as well. I am thinking thatthe lamps are providing a resistance ground to keep the diodes lit; but not affect the motor.

I have 2 ross switches with DZ 1000 machines I think. From what I can tell on these there are 3 wires and power is always on. 2 of the 3 wires are always powered.  There is a EOS (end of stroke switch) internally which shuts off power to the motor while keeping the LED indicator lighted. So the power is always on to the machine. I will not use the push button switch provided but rather throw them with a relay for automated operation on a passing siding. If I am wrong about this someone please clue me in so I dont burn them out.

 

Dale H

It has been a while since I worked on the DZ-1000's at the club but if my memory serves me right the hole in the switch machine for the LED's have a key in it that will only let the LED's mount one way.  If you have a pair of switches in a cross-over and the switch machines are both mounted on the inside of the switch or both mounted on the outside they work with no problems. But if you move one of the switch machines so that one is mounted inside and the other outside this messes up the polarity on one or both. To fix this I had to use a drill bit and by hand work the bit into the hole and cut out this flat key spot so that the LED on one of the machined could be inserted 180* to correct the polarity. On the double x-over all the machines are mounted to the outside of the switch so I don't know if this is the problem or not. You could pull all the LED's and the insert them into one machine at a time to see if inserting one cancels out any others. 

Sooline,

Actually I need to apologize to you.

I spoke with Dennis from Z-Stuff. Dennis said that a locking toggle is OK because the switch machines have a limit switch that opens the circuit.

 

I was still apprehensive because I have seen that cam that actuates the micro switch malfunction.

 

Dennis then said that a non-locking toggle is OK and gave me the scoop on how to wire the LEDs. He did a quick calculation and advised me to get two 750  - 820 Ohm resistors and wire them across the contacts of the toggle; one from each side to the center. This will provide a resistance ground to light keep the diodes lit but not actuate the motor. We couldn't a single resistor in that range so I used a 680 and a 100 ohm on each side. (Wired in series, the total resistance is the sum of all.)

 

That kept the diodes on the switches lighted; but anything that we tried to bridge off the toggle for a control panel light screwed up the circuit.

 

I wired a Z-stuff button to the three contacts on one of the switch motors and it reacted just as the switches. So instead of providing a ground or common to the button as per normal operation we provided the same power that's on the switch machine. When installed on the layout, the non-operational button will be mounted next to the toggle.

 

Problem solved, thanks to all that commented.

 

I was pretty sure you needed the switch controller button in the equation to light the LEDs on the switch machines.  If I understand correctly, the controller provides the common to the switch machines to light the LEDS, when you throw the switch, the short created operates the switch.  Do you have it rigged up on the layout yet?

William,

Negative, the button is not necesaary for anything but a visual on the control panel.

The resitance ground (common) across the toggle provides the LEDs on the switch machines a path. They get their power from the hot lead on the machine.

 

No, it is not installed yet; it was on the layout for track planning. Now that the wiring is configured it will be reinstalled and all the connecting track will be trued.

Good luck.  You've given me an idea for something.

I am using SC-2s for my switches, but I have started to wire the buttons under the layout and let them just let the hang there to keep the lights lit.

 

Doug