PRR Legacy S1 Duplex

Engine or tender derails?  I would check to see if any trucks are binding. Make sure the draw bar is swinging freely.

Thanks Marty for tuning in, the Engine is the derailer at this point.  From what I'm witnessing the lead and trailing trucks are working, it appears to be the drive wheels - the rear drive wheels that are very easy to jump the track.

@marshelangelo posted:

Thanks Marty for tuning in, the Engine is the derailer at this point.  From what I'm witnessing the lead and trailing trucks are working, it appears to be the drive wheels - the rear drive wheels that are very easy to jump the track.

Is there a Burr on one of the drive wheels..helping it climb up off the rail?....just throwing out stuff

Snkbittin, I checked the train overall and no burrs but I did notice that the train has only 1 set of traction tires for such a long locomotive.

I bought the S1 - in service version. My layout is all 072 curves. I have not had any derailing issues. It also has gone through my Ross switches perfectly. The only problem I have had is backing the engine through switches. The rear truck will derail. Going forward it tracks well.

Greg,

   A big engine will always bring out the faults in your track work. You said your track work is not 100%, can you elaborate? Where is the engine derailing? Curves? Switches? Do you have a loop that has at least 072 curves and is 100%. How about seeing how it runs on that loop. How about a video that shows the engine derailing?

JohnB

If the drive wheels are climbing out on curves, check to see if the pilot trucks are not allowing them to be fully in contact with the rails.

Also worth looking at is it oiled up?  A drop of oil on all the axles.  Also check the brake pads, they might be binding the drive wheels.  Good luck with your engine.

I saw a video review of this locomotive. I can’t remember the name of the reviewer. It may have been PGH Train Fanatic.  In the review he mentioned track radius and that it may actually need a wider radius than 072.

Hey Everyone, thanks for showing me all of the attention, I cherish the info.  The S1 only derailed on the curves and it was the second driver (or the back driver), the front truck and the back have fresh oil in the proper spots, I didn't oil the axles but I definitely will and it seems like the brake pads are very close but they aren't touching or binding the drivers.  Like I said previously the train is on my outside loop with O-81 curves, I haven't attempted to put it on the O-72 curves yet, but I did notice as I said before, the train to be so huge has only 1 set of traction tires.  Hmm, Interesting. Apparently at this time, my computer doesn't want me to endure this type of embarrassment and it won't let me attach the video showing no derailment at this time PLUS I can't seem to show enough and also get below the 100MB requirement.  This isn't working in my favor but at least the train has stopped derailing.  All I can say right now is THANKS everyone for tuning in to help with my situation. -   MARSHELANGELO

Greg,

There have been a couple of reports on YouTube about some of these engines derailing on 72 curves. In one case, the owner narrowed the issue down to the trailing truck on the engine. In his case, the trailing truck did not fully pivot on tight curves and consequently forced the rear drivers to climb the rail and then derail. His fix was to swap the engine out with his dealer and his new engine did not have that problem. Here is the video (skip to 4 minute mark):

https://youtu.be/z6qfXnEGbrw

Rafi

Thanks Rafi, I'm not at that point yet and hope I DON'T have to do that.

In Speaking with Rafi, and listening to everyone chiming into my post from 2 weeks ago, I'd like to say thanks to all of you for your input again.  i went to lengthening my curves (O-81), cleaning, changing direction of the train to no avail and I just got fed up and called my guys over at Nassau Hobby.  Chris, Mike and the crew, (Charlie might have been in the back office) were their usual friendly and courteous selves and told me to bring the engine back and swap it out.  I'm happy to say that I haven't put the train through any strenuous run time yet but 2 times around the layout without and with passenger cars and so far no track jumping at all.  On my final lap around the track, the 1st Duplex leaped off the track and I did notice the trailing truck had derailed along with the rear driver and that was the straw that broke the camels back for me, so this morning I called Nassau Hobby and spoke with Chris and now I have a brand new Duplex which hasn't given me any signs of the previous trains problems.  Thanks again to everyone who provided me with wisdom, signs to look for and help and the guys at Nassau Hobby for their support.   MARSHELANGELO

HI GREG,

  Glad you got the S1 swapped.  I too bought mine from the GUYZ at NASSAU HOBBY on their Labor Day sales of 10 % off.  Great engine and I am starting to like the fantasy colors.  I had the same problems that you stated above.  The rear trucks coming off the tracks along with everything else you stated.  This drove me nuts.  I too did all the initial checks to no avail.  I then decided to look at my green TMCC version from 2003.  Which runs perfectly around the layout. I flipped them over side by side and looked at the rear trucks where I too felt there was something binding back there.  I noticed on the TMCC version there were more washers.  On the front portion of the frame towards the front of the engine was a larger washer under the mounting screw and small washer.  This was not the case on the Legacy model.  Along with a larger washer underneath which on the TMCC version was smaller in size, so I went to hardware store and got the right sizes and swapped them out.  Also on the truck under the c clip there was a missing washer that should have been where the spring sits on so I added this washer too.  I place the S1 back on the tracks and ran it with the new washer underneath and it worked like a charm on my 0-72 layout.  I ran it for an hour during the day no troubles then another hour last night no troubles.  I am glad I had the older version to look at along with the Lionel Replacement Parts list to get a few more of these washers to keep on hand.  My guess it could have been a worker error or maybe it was quitting time on a Friday afternoon?😲😉😀
  Thanks for starting this thread and without it I too would have been calling up for a replacement engine.  Enjoy your engine, it sure is a fun one.👍👍

Hey laz57, I'm glad it worked out for you also, unfortunately I didn't have a reference loco, so when Rafi told me of the swap out situation, I was happy that the guys at NASSAU HOBBY obliged.  Just my 4 laps around the layout satisfied me and gave me that good sigh of relief.  In this forum you learn things in multiple ways.  We both have better locomotives because of this forum. Take care - MARSHELANGELO

Greg--glad it all worked out!

The irony is that I'm living vicariously through all of you new S1 owners, as I'm still waiting on mine: the American Railroads version that was unfortunately delayed due to a paint issue. Run those engines this weekend for us owners-to-be! I can hardly wait for that thing to arrive (and I'm praying that it doesn't have that rear truck issue).

Rafi

I'll try another attempt at filming the S1 on another app and try to download it to the forum very soon.  - MARSHELANGELO

@laz1957 posted:

HI GREG,

  Glad you got the S1 swapped.  I too bought mine from the GUYZ at NASSAU HOBBY on their Labor Day sales of 10 % off.  Great engine and I am starting to like the fantasy colors.  I had the same problems that you stated above.  The rear trucks coming off the tracks along with everything else you stated.  This drove me nuts.  I too did all the initial checks to no avail.  I then decided to look at my green TMCC version from 2003.  Which runs perfectly around the layout. I flipped them over side by side and looked at the rear trucks where I too felt there was something binding back there.  I noticed on the TMCC version there were more washers.  On the front portion of the frame towards the front of the engine was a larger washer under the mounting screw and small washer.  This was not the case on the Legacy model.  Along with a larger washer underneath which on the TMCC version was smaller in size, so I went to hardware store and got the right sizes and swapped them out.  Also on the truck under the c clip there was a missing washer that should have been where the spring sits on so I added this washer too.  I place the S1 back on the tracks and ran it with the new washer underneath and it worked like a charm on my 0-72 layout.  I ran it for an hour during the day no troubles then another hour last night no troubles.  I am glad I had the older version to look at along with the Lionel Replacement Parts list to get a few more of these washers to keep on hand.  My guess it could have been a worker error or maybe it was quitting time on a Friday afternoon?😲😉😀
  Thanks for starting this thread and without it I too would have been calling up for a replacement engine.  Enjoy your engine, it sure is a fun one.👍👍

Can you put together a illustration that might help other owners?  Seems you'd be doing the forum and other S1 owners a service.

Nice catch!  I love it when we can figure this stuff out ourselves. 

Thanks MARTY.  If I have some time I’ll try and make a video.  

For other S1 owners, has anyone else had the rear driver climbing issue and been able to resolve it using the previously mentioned comments? Flipping the locomotive over, the only washer that seems to be on mine are the ones built into the screw heads that hold the trucks in place, as well as one cup washer on the back of the front truck. I suspect the front of the rear truck needs a cup washer on that screw, but I don’t have a TMCC S1 to compare it to. I’ve attached an image of the washer that is on the front truck. Does the mount to the frame holding the front truck in place also need a washer (a small flat), or is the front screw ok as is? Any underside pictures of a TMCC S1 (or repaired Legacy S1) would be greatly appreciated.

I don't have this engine, but looking at the big picture, I'm a bit perturbed by this issue and the subtle complexity of the solution. I seems it was only solvable by the luck of having someone with a previous version to make a comparison. Without that, the problem would have been very difficult to unravel.

In cases were someone has purchased a new engine that has already been sold out at dealers and can't be replaced, with these sorts of problems, you may never be able to figure out how to repair it on your own. There's no broken part, just missing parts, but there's no way to know that something's missing. If it's out of warranty, then what?

Just curious - do the replacement Legacy engines (that apparently run without problem) and those without problems have all the same washers that were used in the older TMCC version? Was there anything changed in the design of the newer Legacy version with respect to these washers?

@breezinup posted:

I'm a bit perturbed by this issue and the subtle complexity of the solution. I seems it was only solvable by the luck of having someone with a previous version to make a comparison. Without that, the problem would have been very difficult to unravel.

In cases were someone has purchased a new engine that has already been sold out at dealers and can't be replaced, with these sorts of problems, you may never be able to figure out how to repair it on your own. There's no broken part, just missing parts, but there's no way to know that something's missing. If it's out of warranty, then what?

This is what happens when parts diagrams aren’t shared with the consumer.

I just had a friend over with the S1 that had the issue of the trailing truck hanging up and derailing the locomotive, either that truck or lifting the wheels off the rails.  The cure appears to be to remove the trailing truck, smooth both sides of the guide slot behind the pivot point, and then round the edges of all the washers in the assembly.  Finally, grease everything and put it all back together, and so far, so good.

The problem was that the trailing truck would "stick" swiveling to one side and something would jump the track.

Yup- I’m the friend of John’s with the S1 problem. It was new in the box and I had not had a chance to use it yet as my layout has been under construction. Clearly not a great design in reference to the rear trailing truck and the manner in which it pivots. A bit of a perplexing problem at first, due to this design. But John figured out a solution and it now goes around the layout as it should. Thanks again, John!